Talk:List of countries by date of nationhood

Contents

1 Meaning of "nationhood" 2 Table formatting 3 Split the page up? 4 For the correction of this article 5 Meeting same problem while categorizing heads of states... 6 Issues with particular Countries 6.1 Greece? 6.2 Hungary 6.3 Latin American countries 6.4 early dates for Bulgaria and Serbia 6.5 Serbia's date of nationhood 6.6 Persia (Iran) 7 Luxembourg 8 A proposal for settling the matter...

Meaning of "nationhood"

What do we mean here by "nationhood"? For example, China became a unified entity in 221BC, but the current People's Republic controlling most of China was founded in 1949 (as listed on the page). Do we list 221 BC or 1949? How about successor states (e.g. Republic of China from Qing Empire) --Jiang 21:30, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't see a reason why we have 1776 listed as the US date, but East Timor in 2002 - we need to set a rule of either declarations of independence, or facts on the ground, or both - mixing them is silly. Morwen 21:35, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)

I'm went on the most commonly accepted date. Feel free to make a change if for some reason you don't feel it is accurate. -User: Earl Andrew December 23, 2003 0:17 (UTC)

I'm not disputing particular dates, I dispute that it is valid to pick an arbritrary date and believe it to have significance. Morwen 21:02, Dec 23, 2003 (UTC)

Well, these changes will quickly become confusing. I think it's confusing to have 1801 for the UK and a date in the 400s for France...France and England went through many government changes over the years, and it's wrong to imply that France has had 1400 more years of continuity in government than the UK. We could go with the date of France's liberation after WWII if we wanted to go overboard the other direction. Until and unless we have a clear standard for nationhood, I think we should avoid moving countries around on this page. It's a nice list, but at present is imprecise. I thank Earl Andrew for the work he did, and agree with 90% of these dates, but the controversial 10% will sink this page if we let it. I think we should find a way of not letting it. Hopefully we can find a simple standard agreeable to all? Jwrosenzweig 00:36, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

How about countries that were once independent, got invaded, and became independent again (eg France, Mongolia, e. Timor)? --Jiang 00:45, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'd add to that Iceland, which appears to be very young on this list, but in fact had the first representative assembly (the Althing) in Northern Europe (if you call Iceland Europe, and I do) at the end of the Viking era before being conquered by the Norwegians and Danes. I have no idea what to do with that. Does it matter how long a nation is conquered for? Jwrosenzweig 00:49, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well, for France it only lasted for a war, (world war II) and to my knowledge they maintained a government? Unless I'm forgetting another instance? -User:Earl Andrew December 23, 2003 @ 0:50 (UTC)

I fully agree that the list is unbalanced. For example Hungary has the date of its first coronation listed, but Croatia does not, and yet both were once independent kingdoms, both lost their independence, and both restored it later. That doesn't quite make sense. --Shallot 22:37, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Or should we just copy the CIA (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2088.html ) and blame them for anything that's wrong? --Jiang 00:54, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't want to, partially because the first user to change it means it won't be the CIA's fault anymore. Besides, they would give us 1927 for the UK....blech. Maybe this is an impossible task. And re:France, it was occupied for four years, a reasonable length of time, and its government was a puppet Nazi state based in Vichy. I'm not saying I want to have France's founding as 1945, but it raises important issues. What counts as being unindependent? China's founding date also baffles me...why should it be shortchanged when Japan is not? This problem gets thornier and thornier...Jwrosenzweig 01:12, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No it doesn't give the UK's founding date as precisely 1927; some entries require and should have more than a single date listed. What about China's founding date? The Cia lists 221 BC. No new state was declared in Japan after WW2, as was done by Mao Zedong in 1949. If we go by constitutions, the latest PRC constitution was drafted in 1982 - not something we should note. --Jiang 01:27, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The formation of the PRC is such a dramatic change in China's history, that perhaps it is deserved its creation date as that of nationhood. From the best of my knowledge, the only thing that comes close is Japan becoming a constitutional monarchy. -User:Earl Andrew December 23, 2003 1:32 (UTC)

It is difficult to gauge how "dramatic" something is. The problem with listing 221 BC is that China is an article on the geographical and political entity and not the modern state. Is nationhood really the right word? List of countries by independence? establishment? --Jiang 21:01, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

My source for the information used the word "nationhood" but, one could think of a better word I suppose. -User:Earl Andrew Decemember 23rd, 2003 22:01 UTC

In my opinion, this page continues to be confusing...we now have Andorra granted nationhood in the 1270s by a country (Spain) that, according to the list, did not exist until 1492! Granted, it's an isolated example, but I think this is one of Wikipedia's lists that is an example of why list-making is sometimes (not always, but sometimes) a futile exercise. Perhaps I'm just being a curmudgeon, but I can't see my way to a version of this list that I find truly satisfying and accurate. Jwrosenzweig 18:11, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Another example of this would be Sweden, which broke out of the Kalmar Union in 1521 and is listed by 1523 when Vasa was elected. The Kalmar Union was formed in 1389 by Denmark, Norway and Sweden. The earlier listings of Denmark (980) and Norway (872) are quite arbitrary, and several similar milestones in the history of Sweden exist.

How much more sense do the CIA dates make? --Jiang

The whole thing is based on a very foggy notion of "nationhood", resulting in a very un-WPish POV-fest. The easy way would be to present the whole thing as a quote by the CIA, and end there. If we want to present this list as independent of CIA/USA-POV, we need to rework it. "nation" and "country" is not the same thing. "date nationhood" can only mean "date of recognition of nationhood", since nations are not formed on a particular day. This amounts to "independence", and in every case, information should be added concerning "recognized by whom". The 1291 declaration of Switzerland, for example, was recognized by nobody at all, and it had at the time much the same status as a declaration of independence of Abkhazia has today. Many nations were indepentent, but don't exist anymore today. We should either include "extinct" nations, making the list really open-ended theoretically including First Nations that were never officially recognized, or (more realistically) we should only include countries that are recognized by the UN today. In that case, only one date of independence should be given per country, if possible reflecting the formation of the modern state. dab 11:54, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The date of independence isn't a meaningful notion for most of the older countries and the date of formation of the modern state is too recent to mean anything. People in the UK or France don't think of their country as only a century or so old, when the state took its current shape; they think of it as a millenia or more old, dating back to Alfred and Charlemagne, or earlier. As for cases like Switzerland, the standards for recognition were different then.

What is needed is flexibility. In the country has a date of internationally recognised independence, quote that. If not, use the first date at which a precursor of the modern state (with a continuous history since) had de facto sovereignty over a majority of the modern states territory. That should close to the date people typically think of the nation as originating at, which is the target we should be aiming for. Carandol

fair enough, that's at least a definition of what this article is aiming at, although a difficult one, since it is a much more subjective question "how people think of their nation" than a simple date of independence.

Difficult, but doable. Not all questions are going to be easy to answer. What I've suggested is fairly objective, relating to political facts, but should approximate the more subjective definition.Carandol

It also begs the question, which nations are to be included. Only contemporary ones, recognized by the UN? nationhood had a very real meaning among the native americans, for example. Only, these nations were wiped out before they had a chance to be recognized by the UN.

The problem with those nations is that we have no good record of their origins. We could either mark any date not backed up by contemporary evidence as legendary, or omit all such events, but we shouldn't put things like the legendary founding of Japan on the same footing as the well attested American Revolution.Carandol

We also open a wide field for disagreement which date is the most relevant for any particular nation, especially for states that have sizeable minorities. dab 23:04, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So we record all the relevant dates, with short explanations. For Spain we'd record dates for the foundation of Castille and Aragon, as well as the date of their unification. Countries like Spain, and the UK, formed by the merger of states, do contain multiple nations. Carandol

I am not sure you are aware where you are embarking on, here. For Egypt, we will have 31st century BC, First dynasty of Egypt as well as 1922, independence from UK, as well as lots of dates in between?dab

With Egypt, there's no institutional continuity, so the first dynasty is not a precursor state, but I'm well aware that some might disagree. A proliferation of dates would reflect reality.Carandol

A very difficult and potentially unfeasible enterprise (c.f. the other objections on this page), compared to the straightforward and potentially useful listing of modern independent nations by independence date. dab

You could do that, and change the name of the page, but that would mean leaving a lot of countries off the list. People would keep trying to put them back on, with spurious 'independence' dates. Prevent that, and I'm pretty sure we'll get another page created listing 'formation dates'. Carandol

I don't say you shouldn't try to do it; it just seems that the "NPOV dispute" boilerplate will not be removed anytime soon... If we are to dive so deeply into history, it seems arbitrary only to include nations that happen to be recognised by the UN (or the USA) in 2004. It's doable, alright. And it's also possible to make it objective. If we don't exclude legendary dates, there will be no end of them, though, going back to aboriginal "dream time". If we remove all mythical dates, that leaves us with controversial dates. If we don't wan't to follow a central authority, disputed dates should be marked as disputed; that would force us to include Basque, Tibet, Taiwan and Abkhazia types of national independence movements dab 11:36, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd prefer to exclude legendary dates, or exile them to another page. Sticking to de facto sovereignty should minimise the dispute for historical dates, which aren't live political issues. For more modern dates, exclude nations which haven't had de facto sovereignty in recorded history, but include the rest, not just those recognised by the US/EU/UN, and mark disputes. In principle, that would include cases like Bavaria and Kashmir but we can begin omitting such cases and see if anyone feels strongly enough about their nationhood to put them in. If they did, they'd stay in. This seems nearer NPOV than only considering nations recognised by the US/EU/UN. Carandol

Table formatting

I started a new table which may be better then the current one (after it's finished, of course).

Date	Nation	Event
660 BC	Japan	Founded by Emperor Jinmu, descendant of goddess Amaterasu
301	San Marino	Founded by the stonemanson, Marinus the Dalmatian
486	France	Gaul conquered by the Frank leader, Clovis I
681	Bulgaria	Peace treaty with the Byzantine Empire
875	Bohemia (Czech Republic)	Borivoj I's convertion to Christianity
966	Poland	Mieszko I's convertion to Christianity
980	Denmark	Unification by Harold Bluetooth
1001	Hungary	Coronation of Stephen I
1066	England	Norman conquest
1143	Portugal	Peace of Zamora
1238	Thailand	Sovereignty won from the Khmer Empire
1747	Afghanistan	The Durrani Empire founded by Ahmad Shah

England predates 1066, which was the Norman conquest of England. A better date is either the accession of King Alfred, first king of all England, or the departure of the Romans, when many histories of England begin.

Split the page up?

I think this pages should be split:

• List of countries by most recent date of independence
• List of countries by earliest date of independence under their current names
• List of countries by earliest date of unity in roughly their current borders

etc if anyone can think of other salient characteristics. Thus for Algeria, say, we would have:

• Date of most recent independence: 1962
• Earliest date of unity in roughly its current borders: 1518?
• Earliest date of independence under its current name: effectively, 1710; legally, 1962

How else will it be possible to resolve the issues? Any ideas?--66.92.26.227

Agreed. Can you explain the difference between "most recent date of independence" and "earliest date of independence under their current names"? Most commonly, the official name changes when a new constitution is passed, etc. Where does that fall? --Jiang 21:36, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I propose "most recent date of independence" for when their current incarnations became independent; thus Lithuania would be 1990 rather than 1918, or 14-whenever. "earliest date of independence under their current names" would be for when something resembling that territory first became independent, eg 1253 for Lithuania, basing it on the original Kingdom rather than the modern Republic; this may often be disputable or not adequately known, but that can't be helped. I added the "name" proviso just to rule out cases where a significantly different national group established a country on roughly the same territory (say, the Mon in Burma, or the Hittites and Byzantines in Turkey.) One might also need to separate the lists by dates of de jure versus dates of de facto independence (for Lithuania, 1918 versus 1990/1991.) --66.92.26.227

Actually, listing what is traditionally celebrated as a nation's "birthday" or "independence day" may be more interesting, informative - and most of all easier - than listing dates of de facto establishment of a national state (whatever it may mean). So I'd suggest two lists: National "Birthdays" (very often it's just a year, no month or day) and Independence Days. --Kpalion 22:28, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm with 66.92.26.227, mainly. At any rate, the list cannot possibly be allowed to stay here, because it is not the least concerned with nationhood. Please, please, please distinguish between states (countries) and nations. -- Jao 14:25, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

then be bold and carry out the plan. there are no objections. --Jiang 23:54, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

For the correction of this article

For the newer countries, the entries are good (need recognition and declaration dates). No problem with that. But for older ones, it reaches the limits of the ridicule (sorry for the word). So,1st step is to see which countries CIA considers from that year. The other we must see case to case if it is really the same nation (and when they were recognized. We also should have 2 dates (declaration or emancipation - and recognition). I see a lot of missleading info. Can a person with some culture believe that croacia independent in 1993 was the same country from the 12th century, just because it shares the same name? -Pedro 10:26, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Again with the Croatian case. What about all the other countries? How similar or dissimilar can any one of them possibly be? (That's 1990/1991, not 93, too.) --Joy [shallot] 11:43, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Not only that case. I found lots of them! The most difficult to deal are France; Hungary and San Marino (this last case is easy - declared independence in that date, but recognized much later). That maedeval Croatia has NOTHING to do with modern Croatia, besides being part of the history of the country. -Pedro 01:30, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC) How about England and Scotland? Arent they part of the UK? Why they are listed? That is pure POV. -Pedro 01:32, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Before 1200

660 BC - Japan - traditional founding by Emperor Jimmu icorrect!

221 BC - China - unification under the Qin Dynasty I'm not informed'

at least 2,000 years - Ethiopia - oldest independent country in Africa and one of the oldest in the world I cant tell

3 September 301 - San Marino declaration date

486 - France - unified by Clovis I Cant tell

681 - Bulgaria - unification of Bulgars and Slavs by Asparukh completly incorrect

843 - Scotland - unified by Kenneth mac Alpin not correct

9th century - England - Alfred the Great (871-899) the first King of England' this can be valid, if England leads the UK, similar case in Spain

10th century - Croatia - transformation of the medieval Croatian state into a kingdom under Tomislav around 925 completly incorrect

10th century - Denmark - organized as a unified state by Harold Bluetooth around 980 valide

1001 - Hungary - unification by King Stephen I I belive it it wrong

23 June 1128 - Portugal - from Kingdom of Leon valide

5 October 1143 - Portugal - king Afonso Henriques' rule recognized as independent

1156 - Austria - raised from a Bavarian margravate to an independent duchy under the Babenbergs I dont know

Grow up. --Cantus 01:41, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to concur with Cantus here, what you're saying is quite incoherent. --Joy [shallot] 09:50, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I changeg to more "neutral" words. Have you read the history of those countries? Who should grow up intelectualy is Cantus, that doesnt know the meaning of this and doesnt border to understand the total mixture that this "article" is. If this continues like this. I'll add Lusitania, ophiussa and oestremini has former Portugals. -Pedro 13:43, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, have you read the histories of those nations/countries? I really can't tell from what you've written. --Joy [shallot]

I read Croatia's, Hungary's and Etiopia's. Why cant you tell cause of the 91/93 error? For what I've read nether croatia, nether Hungary is the same state or nation. Especially Croatia. -Pedro 16:21, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So you read them, and still insist that they are so horribly different from England or Portugal or Spain that they aren't even in the same category? Am I the only one who doesn't see any sense in this? Anyone? --Joy [shallot]

• IN Spain there was a meger of different nations, Castille leading it.
• In UK, there was a merger, with England leading it.
• In Portugal nothing changed since 1128, just the form of government: monarchy (totalitary; liberal); republic (1st,2nd,3rd).
• Crocia was an ancient kingdom, that disapeered, became regions of Hungary and other states. Modern Croacia, is a recent nation from former Yugoslavia. Has every country it dates its roots from former states. In the case of Croatia, Old Croatia. In the case of Portugal, Lusitania (circa 3rd century BC - 10th century BC). We are teached about the heroes from Lusitania (has 1st Portuguese heroes), and we understand ourselfs has Lusitanians, in museuns, artifacts from Lusitania are especially showed. We arent the same lusitanians, nether has a state, language, religion, etc. It is important as a link to the past, it is a credible link, but we can not understand it has the founding of our nation or state. I'm not trying to offend Croatians, this info is very useful to the History of that nation. Has like Lusitanians is for ours. -Pedro 16:39, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But this former state was on the same territory that is today inhabited by the same nation, and the present nation speaks the same original language (I'm pretty sure it's similarly different as is e.g. Alfred's English and modern English) and is of the same religion. If we were talking about statehood, then they would not be the same because there were many different states inbetween. But we're talking about nationhood, and that doesn't require nation states — it can't require nation states, because the concept of a nation state didn't exist before pretty recent history. --Joy [shallot]

A thing's for sure. You feel connected to that former state. But if we are debating tribes or nations. You cant have a date. In most countries listed here, they are listed by independence (inluding Portugal); Spain by a merger. If Croatia is listed like that, and non-independet nations (like Scotland) then we will have a very confusing article. I cant date the nationhood of Portugal. Nether the Spanish and their various peoples. How can you understand a nationhood, by the independence of a nation /state at the first time, and not the today's independence?. Portugal is an independent nation state since the 12th century (at least since the 14th century, the concept of a nation (feeling different) has kept it independent from Spain. Has a nation, I cant date it. The country since the 9th century tries to get independence. It gained in early 12th century. The the title of this page is missleading. The best is to create a new article.-Pedro 23:31, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• by the way, most of the countries listed in here, are not nations, but independent states. This article is pretty messed up. -Pedro 23:33, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It seems apparent that you've missed the whole previous discussion on this talk page about how we may need several different pages because of different criteria used :) --Joy [shallot] 20:58, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, I never said that I don't "understand" "today's independence". Indeed, if you actually bothered to look at the article, you'd notice that both dates for Croatia are listed. --Joy [shallot] 21:00, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• stop being nationalist. You know this article is BS. -Pedro 11:42, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What wonderful logic... --Joy [shallot]

Meeting same problem while categorizing heads of states...

The problems raised by this page are to be met elsewhere... I have just stumbled on a similar difficulty today, when I tried to develop Category:Heads of state by country - how far backwards in time should you include a ruler in this category ? (A few hours were enough to be in conflict whether or not subcategorize Category:Pharaohs in Category:Egyptian heads of state, see Category talk:Pharaohs).

(This comment being also a little piece of advertising ! Why would not you add the rulers of your favourite country to Category:Heads of state by country ?) --French Tourist 16:33, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Issues with particular Countries

Greece?

This is a nice page. However, I have a question regarding Greece. In that article, there are three different dates given for Greece's independence--one in the opening section, and two in the table (declared and recognized). This article posits a fourth date. I know nothing about which is right, or how it should be handled, but we should have some consistency. Can someone who knows please check. Danny 11:39, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hungary

Hungary is a country of AD 896. My reasons are that Hungary has been a well-defined (constant) geographical area whose people has been sharing the same (unique) language and culture continuously since that time, and it has been the same nation AND the same country every since. AD 896 is the year when the Hungarian tribes conquered the area which became the land of the Hungarian Kingdom recognized by the Catholic Church (which WAS the de facto authority to "recognize") on Jan 1st, 1001 with the coronization of Stephen I (I. István).

Hungary is a country of 1918. This is the only one that I saw. You cannot date a country to be from 1000, just because an ancient kingdom had the same name. that is not the same thing. -Pedro 23:39, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

other jokes:

660 BC - Japan - traditional founding by Emperor Jimmu

486 - France - unified by Clovis

681 - Bulgaria - unification of Bulgars and Slavs by Asparukh

10th century - Croatia - transformation of the medieval Croatian state into a kingdom under Tomislav around 925

1001 - Hungary - unification by King Stephen I

1156 - Austria - raised from a Bavarian margravate to an independent duchy under the Babenbergs

I dont even want to talk about Scotland and England! -Pedro 23:44, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Umm, what? England as a "country" was unified in 9th century by Alfred the Great. It has since been conquered, and had a couple of civil wars, but it's still the same country, albeit in political union with another (AIUI). Do you mean "nation", instead?

James F. (talk) 00:14, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Well the title is "nationhood" .Pedro 00:36, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You should contact the jokers, the CIA, who compiled this list. --Cantus 00:17, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

I cant believe in this, sorry if I seem offensive. From CIA: 28 November 1975 (date of proclamation of independence from Portugal); note - 20 May 2002 is the official date of international recognition of East Timor's independence from Indonesia The fact, is that the independence was from Portugal. Xanana Gusmao came to Portugal to discuss when Portugal would declare the country's independence - he choose the date! As for Hungary I searched in a Enciclopedia. This is very dubious information. And very stupidy, that will misslead people. I think it should go with a label "caution: stupidity" -Pedro 00:36, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

look: CIA, for Croatia: Croatia 25 June 1991 (from Yugoslavia) .. OOOps it must be another CIA! -Pedro 00:39, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Please don't try to be funny, it's not. See the detailed discussion above. This list has problems, but we won't fix it if you mock one thing instead of fixing another.

(And, just FYI, both dates for .hr are correct, each in its context.)

--Joy [shallot] 11:04, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cool down people, please. This a hot page already, no need to set it on fire. As someone said way up in this talk, maybe it should be moved to List of countries by independence date, maybe even better List of states by independence date, and even then it would be problematic. Wich independence date to use? The self-declaration of independence? International (wich?) recognition? Maybe both... And what about countries that lost and regained it one or more time? List the last? List first and last? List all?

Why I think the name is bad? Given that nation "is a group of people sharing aspects of their language, culture and/or ethnicity" you can not date a nation. There is no way to say that on D day people felt like a nation and on D-1 day they didn't. Also there are nations that aren't, and never where, a state, and, thus, some states have multiple nations (see: nation for examples)

OTOH a state "is a political entity possessing sovereignty". The date of sovereignty, or independence, may be established, even if still with the difficulties I mentioned above, and certainly some more I didn't thought of.

As for the CIA as a source, I think it is a good as any other, for a article's beggining. After that we shall not forget two major points.

1)The CIA is, given it's nature, a POV institution.

2)The CIA is not an association of historians, so, even when in good faith, they will make mistakes - as an example of that I removed the list entry for 1910-10-05, Portugal independent republic. At that date Portugal did became an independent republic but was the successor of an also independent portuguese monarchy. Its the same nation, it's the same state, only a different form of government. Nabla 17:43, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)

Latin American countries

I think the Latin American countries have some errors. Right now, the list seems to record the first time they were ever called by their present names in reference to an administrative reigon, but most of the dates of nationhood are actually dates in which they were just accepted into the larger Central American Republic or Kingdom of Nicuragua. Most only became countries in the 1840's. Maybe I will fix it. It's just that editing wiki charts scares me...

This list as it is now is good for post-colonial countries in the Americas and Africa but makes no sense for European and Asian nations. In Eurasia most nations were born hundreds if not thousands years ago, and practically all of them were divided, merged, conquered and liberated many times in their histories. The very notion of nationhood in those countries is different from that in countries like the US, Canada or Australia. For instance, you can't treat the UK as a single nation - the English, the Welsh, the Scots, and the Irish consider themselves separate nations and probably have different dates for nationhood. I don't know if I'd be able to correct all of these dates but I can give you one general hint. As a rule of thumb, the traditionally accepted "date of natinohood" for most European nations is not that of "independence" but that of Christianization (e.g. 966, not 1918, for Poland).
Oh, and forget about what the CIA says. Does anyone really think that Egypt, one of the most ancient nations in the world, started in 1922? What sense does that make?
--Kpalion 17:22, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• • Well, for a brainsless guy, it makes no sence at all. The fact is that modern Egypt only used the name of Ancient Egypt, it is completly a different people, language, culture, religion, state, borders, etc. Nothing is alike! Nothing! Christianization? Has far has I know, Christialization came to exist in the Roman Empire. The Romans were christians when the Barbarians invaded the Empire. You are all mixing up various things together. The only problem that I find here, is San Marino (is it from the 4th or 19th century? -BOTH!). And other few. The complex cases you should study if there is a continuum on the state or people. And not people that are distance in 1000 yrs, that just share some territory and the same name. THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING, NOR THE SAME NATION, PEOPLE, ETC.. -Pedro 14:51, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• You cant say France is a country from 1945, because the French state continued its existance then and centuries before. But You cannot saay that the "kingdom of the Franks" was France. It wasnt! If this articles continues like it is. I'll put Portugal has Oestremini (a nation with possibly 4000 years). Hey it was located in Portugal! Or should we base on 195 BC - the borders of Lusitania were almost the same has today's! Why Spain is made of the 15th century, there were kingdom before. hey... there were others before. It is known has Hispania since 1000 BC! -Pedro 01:04, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

early dates for Bulgaria and Serbia

initially posted to User talk:Joy

Hi Joy, Bulgaria's year of nationhood is 681 (or 680/679). It may have been a khanate, but officially Bulgaria started to occupy the territory north of the Byzantine empire after Bulgars defeated it, and the Byzantines were forced to sign a peace treaty with them. If you don't agree with this fact, then who do you think these territories belonged to? If Bulgaria was still a khanate in 2004, would this mean that it's not a country? Look at country:

A country, a land, or a state, is a geographical area and an independent political entity with its own government, administration, laws, often a constitution, police, military, tax rules, and people.

Bulgaria was an independent political entity; it had its own government; it had its own administration; it maybe didn't have many laws back in 681, but I'm sure there was some order; it had their own people and military.

Please tell me why you think Bulgaria was not a country from 681 to 864. Meanwhile, I'll revert your edit. --webkid 19:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is another one of the issues with the vague definition of "nationhood" that we have on this list. If you're going to make this argument about Bulgaria (and Avala about Serbia), then we can't escape the question, what about all the other countries that had an equivalent status in the same time period. --Joy [shallot] 20:55, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think that this should be about first state of the nation.

A country, a land, or a state, is a geographical area and an independent political entity with its own government, administration, laws, often a constitution, police, military, tax rules, and people.

In Serbia? 680? come on at least you know it..

[[User:Avala|Avala|★]] 09:47, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm not quite comfortable with equating states under rulers described as "knez" or "khan" to define nationhood. There must have been at least some reason to delineate those lower ranks from the higher ranks such as king or tsar. AFAIK, the various local dukes were often just competing warlords and didn't have a clearly defined independence, government administration or laws, let alone police and tax rules... granted, the early kings may not have had a handle on all that either, but at least the Pope and/or the patriarch of Constantinople thought they were worthy of recognition. --Joy [shallot] 11:43, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Serbia's date of nationhood

Why do you think that Serbia became a nation in 680? Were there any treaties with Byzantine or Bulgaria for example? The article History of Serbia says: The first Serb state emerged under Caslav Klonimirovic in the mid-10th century in Rascia.. Why can't I find even one match for "Vlastimitovic" at google (http://www.google.com/search?q=Vlastimitovic&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)? --webkid 18:54, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem is not only with Serbia, is in all eastern European countries, maybe because they are new and people need to have to justify their nationality or something else. Portuguese nationality is in 868. But everyone in Portugal would see this date has ridiculous. Cause the country was nothing more than a county, with scarce times of "real" independence (due to problens in the kingdom of Leon), like Castille (i.e. Burgos - other county of Leon) and Galicia (a dependent kingdom of Leon) have had occasional independence.-Pedro 21:01, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem with Serbia is that it appears (on the net) that there was no Vlastimitovic dynasty. There're 0 matches for this dynasty. Can anyone explain this total lack of information? I'm sure that there would have been at least 1 page about this if there was such a dynasty. --webkid 03:57, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You misspelled it. It's "Vlastimirovic". See List of Serbian monarchs. --Joy [shallot]

Persia (Iran)

As an empire and civilization, Persia (Iran) began in the 7th century BC with the rise of the Achaemenid dynasty. In 550 BC / 549 BC, Cyrus the Great unified Persians and Medes and established Persia as an independent country. So, can we add Iran to Before 1200 section? Farshadrbn 11:37, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• OMG!!!! But you can do it, there are other crazzy things in this article, that would be just one more. -Pedro 12:43, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Luxembourg

Surely, the date of independance should be 11th May 1867. 1839 was the date of Belgian independance, along with the Belgian province of Luxembourg, and was the date the Grand Duchy was separated physicaly from the Netherlands, but it was hardly full independance. 's-Gravenhage 13:30, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another Wacko request... hayyyyyyyyyy.. it seems this document best forgotten.

A proposal for settling the matter...

We could include traditional/historical dates for the integration of the nation, and second dates for the founding of the current goverment. So, for instance, Japan would continue to have the date of 660 as a traditional date, but also 1946 as the date for the establishment of the current government of Japan. Similar situations would exist for several European states. Bear in mind, I understand that it may be difficult to establish a second date for some states (who really knows when the government of San Marino was established?), but that shouldn't stop us from implementing this compromise. Justin (koavf) 22:03, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Not a very good idea. I start immidiatly thinking in the best example that I know, my country. So Portugal would have been formed in 1974... O_O or has the CIA put it... in 1910?!... both very stupid! So a 1946 date for Japan is just idiotic. Has a matter of a fact, and because Portugal and Japan are related, Japan only became a unified country when the Portuguese arrived there with their guns. Did Japan existed has a state before that? Ask a Japanese...

Two dates yes, but for declaration /emancipation/soverengty and other for recognition by the pope/ UN/mother nation, etc. The state must have continuaty (being the same people, same culture, same language, same state!).

A thing that I'm surprised in this article are the American countries, why there isnt the same info as in Eastern European countries and former European Asian colonies? Didn't the native Americans founded some sort of unity? You can also put it here. Is really Amazing how countries that didnt existed some years ago, in here, they have thousands of years. And there are some that even dont exist has countries. :D The CIA is a very bad source to things - several incorrections and gross errors in many areas of the articles, but by faar is more credible than this ashaming article. The UN hasnt a similar list? I'm still waiting for a formation date of a country on the Dinosaurs Era! Didnt a monkey 100 000 yrs ago in Eastern Europe roared Ugga bugga?? Maybe that's the real formation date for the Tcheque Republic... or maybe Croatia... Sorry for jocking again, but the article is already a joke. I'm also in the ride. Ok, it is not fun... Where's Mongolia? As far as I know that's the real oldest country in the world. i'm not sure of that -Pedro 17:05, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

===> A relevant example: China No one doubts that China has existed as a political and cultural entity for thousands of years, but the specific political entity of the Republic of China has only existed since 1911, with the overthrow of the monarcy of Puyi. Furthermore, the ROC exists on Taiwan to this day, but the People's Republic of China has existed as the government of the Mainland since 1949. So, there are three "Chinas": 1.) historical, feudal China, 2.) the ROC/Taiwan, and 3.) the PRC/Mainland. It is meaningful and useful to use dates for all three nations/states. This would be the sort of information that I would expect as a user clicking on a link called "List of countries by date of nationhood." For further information, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_%28disambiguation%29. Justin (koavf) 18:38, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)