Talk:Evolution/Creationism

I have just arrived here from my website in the Uk. Creationism only being debated in the US??? you wish!! It is a hot topic in many European countries. As a geologist and lecturer I have been on both sides of the Evolution "fence". I spent many years defending creationism vehemently being moved by religious zeal. However for the past ten years I have given much greater thought to the matter and incline more toward evolution, (perhaps with a Great Designer involved??). Incidently please add Hugh Miller to your list of those involved in this debate . Hugh Miller was a Scottish geologist who published several books in the 1830s & 40s including "Testimony of the Rocks" and "Footprints of the Creator". Much read in the UK and America Miller was a creationist who fought hard against the rising tide of evolutionary argument. His books are very readable as well as scholarly. Anything I can do to help this super project??? please let me know. Jonathan Le Vine March 14th 2004(jonathan.levine@hornsea.eril.net)Moved from Talk:Evolution --Brion 23:19 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

Contents

1 Creationism as it applies to the article

2 Stuff that belongs on talk.origins (Creationism and the nature of science)

3 Moved paragraph on "natural selection"

4 Creationism v Evolution

5 NPOV

6 Creeping creationism

7 More creationist advocacy

8 Critical evaluation of evolution

9 Creationism

10 two truths

11 no place for reli views in science articles

12 Neutrality is disturbed in intro!!!

Creationism as it applies to the article

Has anyone heard of "typism" or some such term? The idea is that organisms belong to distinct types and there is no continuity between species. I think that this idea has been soundly refuted, but it is a basic foundation for opposition to evolution. The idea that each species was created separately by God would be a subset of this type of idea. Maybe this is just some propaganda that I picked up from creationist literature, but it could be a good framework for describing anti-evolution ideas in history and contemporary society. AdamRetchless 17:45, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't want to but in and change a page on an issue that is controversial, but I think the two paragraphs about creationism unbalanced. The creationist movement exists only in the US. There is no debate about creationism in relation to evolution in the rest of the western world, and quite possibly the rest of the world too. If we mention creationism at all, it should be much less prominent, and clearly marked to be US-only. Something along the lines of:

In the US there is a significant Christian movement that rejects macro-evolution on relgious grounds. See Creationism for details.

NTF

I'm not sure what you're seeing here--I see only one paragraph that mentions creationism at all (and doesn't even link to it, which it should), and it's only a brief mention of one of its claims that doesn't really interfere with the rest of what is a reasonable article. Any more details about the creationist movement itself should be on that page, but I don't see any problem with a brief mention here in the proper context, as long as we aren't actually expressing any creationist views here. --LDC

I'm talking about the two paragraphs that start "Some proponents of creationism...." and the next one "Among laymen, .....". The second one doesn't mention creationism, but is closely linked to it. A quick visual estimate shows that these two paragraphs are about 10% of the total explanation on the page. I think that gives way too much attention to what is, in my opinion, an archaic view held by a minority of the people in a single country on the other side of the world. If we include this, we should probably include large paragraphs about related religious and philosophical views held in China, India, and Africa too. NTF

I'm in

Stuff that belongs on talk.origins (Creationism and the nature of science)

Ed removed this important sentence, and replaced it with irrelevant nonsense, so I restored it:

It is worth noting that the mechanism (natural selection) is logically independent of the observation that evolution does indeed occur. Thus, a disproof of Darwinism does not in itself disprove the occurrence of evolution which is an observable fact based on evidence from many fields (e.g. embryology?, paleontology, genetics).

Ed, I respect your religious beliefs, and I appreciate that you want to cover them here. Please do so on the pages devoted to those beliefs. But keep your hands off the real science pages which you clearly aren't qualified to edit. A lot of us have spent a lot of time and energy and decades of education and research on these issues, and we don't appreciate that being take lightly by someone who hasn't. --LDC

I guess I'm not clear on whether Natural Selection is (a) what causes the species to come into being or (b) what causes newly arisen species to survive or perish. Make that clear, and I'll fold my hands in prayer :-) --Ed Poor

Perhaps you could read a book about the topic, since you seem very interested in it? Natural selection acts on variations. Over time it results in change. There should be several books at your local bookstore that will explain this far more clearly than any of us here. GregLindahl

Lee, I think it is very impolite to call an edit that you disagree with "vandalism". --AxelBoldt

Yeah, I could take that personally if I weren't such a humble and friendly guy <wink> --Ed Poor

I do get pretty emotional about this topic, but I'm really not a mean guy. "Vandalism" was a bit over the top, so let me amend that to "unjustified removal of important information". The best layman's explanation of the basics of the neo-Darwinian systhesis I've seen is Dawkin's The Blind Watchmaker. That's a good start, although a real understanding of the subject requires years of study. --LDC

Added this bit after helpful advice from Greg

It is worth noting that the theory of evolution is not falsifiable, hence not a scientific? theory at all, since it includes the claim that God did not intervene in evolutionary history by creating new forms of life. It is held by nearly all biologists, however, for philosophical reasons.

Excuse me? Don't be blaming me for your complete misunderstanding of the issues. Again, I urge you to educate yourself by reading a book on the history of science and philosophy instead of editing articles on Wikipedia. GregLindahl

The reason evolution is not falsifiable is that it would require more evidence than is likely to ever exist, or require something like a time machine.

Removed this:

It is worth noting that the theory of evolution is not falsifiable, hence not a scientific theory at all, since it includes the claim that God did not intervene in evolutionary history by creating new forms of life. It is held by nearly all biologists, however, for philosophical reasons.

because the theory of evolution makes no such claims. It doesn't mention God's involvement one way or the other. -BD

Huh? Why is it called "natural" selection if supernatural action could be involved? The whole point of Darwin's theory is to provide an explanation of evolution which requires only natural processes. This is not to insist that the material universe was not created by God, or sustained by him, or that these natural processes do not operate by his power and will, but that divine intervention in violation of these processes is not involved. My objection to the statement is the claim that evolution by natural selection is "not a scientific theory at all", when of course it is. -HWR

What I mean is that the theory of Evolution, by itself, doesn't make a statement equivalent to "God did not create new forms of life." It doesn't say _anything_ about whether God created life forms; the theory of evolution isn't concerned with abiogenesis. However, once those life forms do exist, the theory of evolution describes how they will change over time. This is compatable with the notion that God created the first simple forms of life and they then proceeded to evolve on their own into what we've got today, for example. Not that I believe this myself, I'm personally an atheist, but some people do believe it and the theory of evolution makes no claims about where its "starting material" comes from (God or natural abiogenesis or panspermia or wherever) as long as it's capable of descent with modification. -BD

Lee, I'd like to make a distinction between creationists and other theory of evolution critics.

I regard creationists as merely expressing their religious faith, i.e., their scripture-based belief that God created (a) the Earth and (b) each species of life.
I regard the so-called creation science movement primarily as an attempt to justify and/or spread their religious faith, but
I regard intelligent design adherents as trying to approach the observed facts with an open mind and concluding, "it looks like there would have to be a designer".

Using this model, I would see no point in "rebutting" creationism, as it is merely an expression of theology. We don't rebut the Hindu or Shinto creation stories. As for creation science, I would focus on showing where its adherents cross the line from faith expression into scientific claim and point out any pseudo-science such as unfalsifiable hypotheses or selective use of evidence.

In contrast, I would give intelligent design a more serious look, respecting its self-description as being distinct from creationism and merely examine it on its merits.

Please tell me whether you think this model will be useful. I regard you as the subject matter expert as far as biology and geology goes. I see myself as perhaps being more conversant with the theological beliefs and public policy aims of faith-based organizations.

Ed Poor

Ed, I just do not understand what you are trying to do here. My understanding of Wikipedia is that it has nothing to do with our (meaning, we contributors') opinions; it has to do with our attempts to provide accurate and intelligible accounts of various phenomena, including various debates. I am not trying to use Wikipedia to "rebut" any religion; I am trying to use it to present adequate accounts of various topics of interest to me, including evolution. And as far as this topic goes, by your own definition "creationism" is not "merely an expression of theology." It is making empirical claims, specifically, about how species arise. These claims flat out contradict the claims of science. People are free to reject the empirical evidence, the methods of science, or the epistemoligical principles of science -- but they cannot deny a conflict between this epistemology/method/interpretation of evidence and the claim that God created each species independently. I am not saying that creationism makes a "scientific" claim since its epistemology and methods are not scientific -- but it most definitly is making a claim about the same phenomena science is making a claim about, and creationism's claim and science's claim are in conflict. And OF COURSE other "creationist" claims about the origin of species (such as those of Hindus and Shintos). This is obvious, isn't it? What is your point -- that the article does not single out Hindu and Shinto creationists? Well, honestly, how many Hindus and Shintos are making sustained public efforts to refute scientific models of evolution? In the United States, at least, it isn't really an issue, is it? And by the way, just because Hindus and Shintos have non-Darwinian creation-myths, I would not immediately conclude (as you seem to) that they are reject Darwin. Catholics and Jews read the same book of Genesis that fundamentalist Protestants do -- but this does not mean that they are "creationists." The Catholic Church accepts Darwin's theory of speciation, as do many if not most Jews. The issue is not what the myths sat, but how people interpret them. Slrubenstein

What I'm trying to do here is suggest that the most important contrast is between the accepted scientific theory of evolution and "creation science", rather than between the theory of evolution and "creationism". The only relevant comment from the scientific community in the creationism article should be one or two sentences and a link. It is with so-called "scientific creationism" which makes definite scientific claims that the theory of evolution is best contrasted. That's what I meant. Many religions also believe in life after death, the efficacy of prayer and so on, but we wikipedians don't feel it necessary to rebut those claims, do we?

Again, it is not a question of whether we Wikipedians want to "rebut" those claims, it is whether there is a public debate over these questions that Wikipedia should describe. And I do not think there is any public debate between science and religion over the efficacy of prayer today. I am not sure why -- one reason may be that the public debate over prayer, for constitutional reasons, is focused on whether prayer should be mandated in public schools or not (similarly, by the way, I doubt there would be any manor public debate over creationism versus science were it not for the question of what should be taught in schools; one could construe all or most of these religion vs. secular controversies in terms of educational policy). Another reason could be that a much earlier generation of scientists -- I am thinking of people like Diderot and others at the time of the Enlightenment -- "rebutted" claims about prayer and an afterlife to their own satisfaction. Slrubenstein

I am just trying to re-focus the topics with a view to a possible re-arrangement, as I did (with feedback from Danny and help from Uriyan) with the British Mandate of Palestine. The last thing I'd want to do is somehow use the 'pedia to put the imprimatur on my pet POV on anything. Ed Poor

Okay, Ed, I see it a bit differently. I think the main point of contention between creation scientists and Darwinian scientists is over what "science" is and how it should work; the question of where species come from is a real question, but secondary to this larger question. The main point of contention between creationists and Darwinian scientists is NOT over "what 'science' is" (since creationists as such are not caliming to be ascientific), it is solely over "where do different species come from." Slrubenstein

I changed "the process of microevolution has been put to use in computers..." to "processes of evolution" because "microevolution" is not a process, it describes a scale of change. Mutation and genetic drift are examples of the processes at work, and these are the exact same processes (among others) at work in "microevolution." Slrubenstein

The evolution, theory of evolution, intelligent design, creation science and creationism articles need a major overhaul. I don't know enough about any of these topics to do it by myself. Thanks to all who are devoting so much time to these weighty topics. --Ed Poor

I thought the comments below taken from a metawiki talk page, Origins of Everything (http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Everything), would be of interest here and something to consider (although perhaps more relevant to a Controversies re Evolution article if one is ever created). Someone, somewhere sometime once said: "Imagination is more important than knowledge...":

"I would argue that the simplest explanation of all is that the universe was always here. Alan D"

"I'd go further and add that it is here to stay and that God is a natural extension of the universe. If mainstream Christianity (or other religions for that matter) were not so invested in its transcendent God (a concept which atheists and many philosophers and scientists recognize as incoherent and rubbish) and settled for a being that was, shall I say, a little more down to earth, religous conflicts with certain scientific theories (like the theory of evolution) would be seemingly moot. Consider that the process of evolution is ongoing...what comes next after humans? Genetically enhanced superhumans? what then?...and after that? Consider a being that over time nature has endowed with such power, knowledge (and hopefully benevolence) that humans might perceive, THAT is God! At that point god or God or supreme being or whatever you want to call it would work as an extension of the universe in creation or evolution whichever you want to call it. B"

Moved paragraph on "natural selection"

I moved this paragraph from the main text:

Although Evolution has been widely accepted by the scientific community, there have been some who point to possible flaws in the theory. The absence of “Transitional Species” has never adequately been explained. Darwin also talked about the absence of transitional species and stated that the theory of evolution would be a fraud without this evidence. Another flaw is the inherit contradiction within the process that supposedly drives evolution, namely “natural selection”. Scientists say that the theory collapses from the weight of its own premise. Natural selection would actually weed out those segments of the population with a mutation since the survival attributes would be compromised. For instance, the light weight skeletal structure of a bird that allows flight would compromise the survivability of a land creature.

from the main article, it should be discussed in Creationism if anywhere. The "transitional species" issue is addressed there, as are criticisms of natural selectios. It is certainly not true that "scientists say that the theory collapses...", although a creationist might say that. This is based on an incorrect assumption and an a priori notion about what constitutes a "survival attribute". Also a mutation may also achieve fixation in a population in the presence of selection due to genetic drift, or achieve equilibrium via mutation-selection balance, so the statement that natural selection would do this or that, depends on may other factors, which can be answered quantitatively via the application of the principles of population genetics. --Lexor 07:36, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is not religious-specific critisism of evolution, but generally scientific, so it belongs in this article. Sambostock 01:48, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Creationism v Evolution

I want to move The Creationism v. Evolution Controversy to a new article. The dispute should be briefly discussed here of course, but the lengthy details of this religious attack on evolution do not belong in this science article. Rather, after briefly discussing this topic we should provide a link to this material in the article we already have on this topic, Creationism. RK 21:02 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I concur. There are also some paragraphs in Creationism that should be moved to the new Creationism vs. Evolution page. All three articles are quite long enough to have their own pages. Indeed, I expect all the different variants of Creationism to eventually have their own pages, for better organization, and to diffuse the POV claims. -- Rudminjd 21:25 15 Jul 2003 (UTC) Joseph D. Rudmin

I think that the better link (at least I hope I'm not too alone in this), is Scientific creationism Mkmcconn 21:19 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It is not strictly a religious attack. There is no clear scientific account of some issues in evolution, and proposing divine being, or time loops, or some other kind of self-organizing intervention, is within the scope of scientific investigation. Was Teilhard de Chardin a biologist? His views offended the Catholic Church, and are now of increasing interest to cosmologists. EofT

I think that the better link (at least I hope I'm not too alone in this), is Scientific creationism Mkmcconn 21:19 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't think we need a separate "Creationism vs. evolution controversy" article -- from a scientific standpoint, there is no such controversy. The creationist arguments should be presented and refuted in the creationism article. This article should briefly discuss the controversy in at most one paragraph, and link to it. "Scientific creationism" should be merged into creationism. --Eloquence

Niether of the preceding two positions are NPOV. The term "creationism" does not need the qualifier "scientific" before it any more than "evolution" does. It may be that "scientific creationism" is a particular variant of "creationism", in which case it could have its own page, with a link off the general "creationism" page.

Agreed. There are forms of creationism which are more or less scientific - see below. EofT

It's precisely because "scientific creationism" is a particular variant, that it needs to be distinguished in the creationism article, or distinguished from creationism more generally defined. The creationists who would claim that their view is a scientific view, and not a religious one, are appropriately named. Merging is alright. My only objection to this, is that the scientific creationism article well on its way to being good, in my opinion, but creationism is a mess because it is prone to be dominated by consideration of scientific creationism. Confusion is not alright. Mkmcconn 23:02 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Furthermore, niether position can refute the other, since they are based on different assumptions. To assume that one can "refute" the other is explicitly POV, and has no place here. -- Rudminjd 21:31 15 Jul 2003 (UTC) Joseph D. Rudmin

That is not quite true. Certain versions of scientific creationism (those that admit the evidence from evolution advocates at all) say that the snag is the explanation of how the cell evolves from simpler forms of co-operating protein. The cell is so much more complex than those forms that the argument holds that intelligent design must have been involved to create it. These theories say that there is no adequate account of how a cell can come about as a result of some proteins or virus-like things floating around. If an account of evolution can provide that, at least those versions of the creation theory might be refuted. EofT

The problem is that the "intelligent design" advocates keep moving the goalposts. For example, the flagellum was offered as an example of 'irreducible complexity'. Fairly soon after that claim was made, a paper was published showing that, in evolutionary and developmental terms, the flagellum is made up of multiple parts, each of which functions separately. Instead of--as I would expect of honest scientists--saying either "we were wrong about irreducible complexity" or (more likely) "okay, the flagellum is not an example of irreducible complexity", ID advocates claimed each piece of the flagellum as "irreducibly complex."

In other words, "irreducibly complex" is another version of the argument from lack of imagination: they can't figure out how to make one, so it can't have evolved. If you show how to make X out of Y and Z, well, they'll just say they don't know how to make Y and Z. Vicki Rosenzweig 22:31 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Rudminjd wrote: "To assume that one can 'refute' the other is explicitly POV, and has no place here." This is an interesting claim, to which I want to respond directly. Similar claims have been made on other discussion pages, and they are often made by people who hold relativistic views; i.e. no belief in objective truth. Relativism itself is a point of view, and should not be confused with the neutral point of view policy. NPOV merely says that views have to be attributed to their adherents if they are controversial. NPOV does not relate to the concept of truth per se; in fact, when a statement is presented in an NPOV manner, and the other side cannot logically respond to that statement, it is perfectly acceptable to let it stand as it is. Many of our pages contain NPOV statements that the respective "other side" will not like -- that the United States supported various dictatorships, that creationist arguments are fundamentally flawed etc. -- but can also not logically refute.

Furthermore, there is a tendency to demand NPOV from people who hold positions on talk pages. This is, of course, nonsensical, as a reasonably informed person will always hold a point of view, even if it is a relativistic one, and it is perfectly acceptable to express such a point of view on discussion pages, if it is done in a non-inflammatory way.

As for "scientific" creationism Vicki already responded to the problems with these claims; the evolution of flagella page discusses the flagellum problem in more detail. Contributors to the Talk.Origins (http://www.talkorigins.org/) discussion group have done extensive work in rebutting virtually every so-called "scientific" argument made by creationists. But those who think there is honesty in creationism should read the article "Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience?" (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/gish.html) by Joyce Arthur, which portrays creationist Duane Gish.

Creationists are not driven by a genuine desire to seek truth, they are driven by a desire to justify what they perceive as the truth, namely that there is an absolutely powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe-spanning entity that is deeply and personally concerned about your sex life. You will recognize the truth in this statement if you recogize the fundamental flaw of the "scientific" argument for creationism -- it violates Ockham's Razor. When they feel that evolutionary theory does not properly explain parts of the evolutionary process, creationists do not do what would be obvious, logical and simple: examine whether there is enough evidence to come up with a full answer and if not, devise a way to find such evidence. If the theory is flawed in light of evidence, improve it. If it cannot be improved without making it too complex, find a better one which fully explains what the old theory explained, plus the remaining flaws.

Creationists do not do this; they do not examine alternative arguments such as dissemination of microbes through space -- they only want to justify their preconceived belief system, which requires the a "creator", which is neither properly defined, nor is there any evidence to support its existence, nor is it explained how the creator came into existence, nor is his motivation for creation examined etc. etc. A more blatant violation of the principle Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate is hard to imagine. That is why "scientific creationism" is an oxymoron -- creationism in all its appearances violates basic scientific principles. It is anti-science and anti-truth. --Eloquence 23:16 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Amen to that. It is also anti-encyclopedic, and should be described in the appropriate sections: i.e., those on religion, politics, and sociology, not here. Tannin 23:28 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I would suggest ignoring EntmootOfTrolls attempts to argue for supernaturalism. His comments that Godly supernatural creation is scientific is false, not to mention dishonest, on its face. He isn't interested in improving this article. He is attempting to drag you into a discussion of science versus religion, with the goal of proving that his religious views are scientific (which they are not.) He is pushing a religious POV in a science topic, in a way that violates our NPOV policy. Let's just do what we are converging on: move this topic into the Creationism article. RK

Ah! I finally understand. To be fair all of the "scientific" refutation of creationism should also be moved to the Creationism v. Evolution page. Rednblu 11:47 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There seems to be a great deal of confusion among various Wikipedians as to what Wikipedia's NPOV policy actually is and what does or does not constitute a violation of this policy. Simply put, if a noteworthy person or group of people makes a factual assertion, it is our job to report that factual assertion and the factual assertions made by other noteworthy persons or groups, taking great care to note who said what and leaving the reader to determine the credibility of competing authorities.

In the context of an article on the Theory of Evolution, Wikipedia's NPOV policy demands that Scientific Creationism be addressed as a noteworthy alternative viewpoint rather than simply dismissing Scientific Creationism as a "religious POV." To wit, rather than saying, "Scientific Creationism is religious doctrine masquerading as science," one should say, "The vast majority of scientists reject the claims of Scientific Creationism as being religious doctrine masquerading as science." The distinction is a subtle one, but it is very important to adhere to an "all noteworthy views" standard rather than using Wikipedia to advance our own agenda, regardless of how convinced we may be that other POVs are categorically and emphatically wrong. -- NetEsq 02:56 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So, Wikipedia should also say:The vast majority of scientists reject the claims of The Flat Earth Society as being religious doctrine masquerading as science?

There is such a thing as overdoing neutrality, and, as has frequently been pointed out, there is no scientific controversy. (I apologize, if this point has already been made on this page.) Io 21:20, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

<< I don't think we need a separate "Creationism vs. evolution controversy" article -- from a scientific standpoint, there is no such controversy. The creationist arguments should be presented and refuted in the creationism article. This article should briefly discuss the controversy in at most one paragraph, and link to it. "Scientific creationism" should be merged into creationism. --Eloquence >>

I agree in part, and disagree in part. There is no need for a separate article, but the appropriate place to discuss the controversy of evolution vs. scientific creationism is in the article on Scientific creationism; the Creationism article should be a distinct and separate treatment of other philosophical topics that are (at best) only remotely related to the much more controversial scientific creationism. -- NetEsq 03:07 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the term "scientific creationism", as the discussion above shows, is in itself controversial, so it should only be used when properly attributed. The article scientific creationism should therefore be merged into creationism. --Eloquence 03:16 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Pardon me for pointing this out if you have already read both articles and (more importantly) the associated talk pages, but Creationism is not synonymous with Scientific creationism. The former is a philosophical topic, and the latter is a pseudo-science. Merging the two together makes no sense whatsoever. -- NetEsq 03:29 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It makes the same sense that merging this article with the "theory of evolution" content did; namely, having related concepts easily accessible within a single article. The prefix "scientific" is merely a deceptive add-on that does not fundamentally alter the nature of the claims. Specifically, sections like "The Missing Link Argument" in Creationism and the part of the Scientific creationism article that begins "Other approaches to scientific creationism generally involve finding problems in the fossil record such as 'missing links' .." are redundant with one another, and it "makes no sense whatsoever" to have them discussed in separate articles. To wit, it seems like the most reasonable course of action to discuss both the philosophical/religious and the pseudoscientific claims of a creationist nature in the creationism article. --Eloquence 03:39 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why not have this discussion on the talk page for Creationism? I think you will find that many of your concerns have already been addressed. To wit, the vast majority of specious content currently found in the article on Creationism has no place in that article. -- NetEsq 03:44 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I disagree, but I do think that both articles are a mess at present. I blame the creationists, of course.--Eloquence 03:53 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Imho, it is a mistake to entirely move the "missing link" paragraph to creationnism. The missing link argument may be used by creationnists, but it is also a point that disturb evolutionnists as well you know ? Anthère

I agree that we should discuss this issue here in this entry. I only moved the original paragraph because it concentrated not on the topic of transitional fossils ("missing links"), but rather it was a discussion of how this subject is used by creationists as a way to attack science and evolutionary biology. That particular disucssion is more appropriate in the creationism article. But the topic of transitional fossils itself is a fascinating and important part of evolution, and can and should be discussed here. (That is, like all our articles, it can be discussed here until it becomes really huge! At that point, we could spin it off into its own article.) However, I disagree with your second point. Biologists are not at all disturbed by any issues relating to transitional fossils ("missing links"). The following discussion is excerpted from the Talk-Origins FAQ, "Five Major Misconceptions About Evoluion:.

Five Major Misconceptions About Evolution (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html)

"There are no transitional fossils."

A transitional fossil is one that looks like it's from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology that occur after both lineages. There's nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.

To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false. Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils, by both the temporally restrictive and the less restrictive definitions. The fossil record is still spotty and always will be; erosion and the rarity of conditions favorable to fossilization make that inevitable. Also, transitions may occur in a small population, in a small area, and/or in a relatively short amount of time; when any of these conditions hold, the chances of finding the transitional fossils goes down. Still, there are still many instances where excellent sequences of transitional fossils exist. Some notable examples are the transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human. For many more examples, see the transitional fossils FAQ in the talk.origins archive, and see

http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/talk_origins.html for sample images for some invertebrate groups.

The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like "dog" or "ant," they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form (for philosophers, the Platonic idea) which defines the category. This kind of thinking leads people to declare that Archaeopteryx is "100% bird," when it is clearly a mix of bird and reptile features (with more reptile than bird features, in fact). In truth, categories are man-made and artificial. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn't.

Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species. In no way does it deny that transitional sequences exist. In fact, both Gould and Eldredge are outspoken opponents of Creationism.

The Transitional Fossils ("missing links") FAQ (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html)

Gould was an outspoken critic of Creationism. He doesn't criticize much nowadays, what with him being dead. --Dante Alighieri 17:38 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I said that because the assumptions are different, one side cannot debunk the other, and to do so would be POV. This has nothing to do with relative truth, but with consistent logic. To "debunk" one would be to explicitly reject its POV. Rudminjd 15:48 20 Jul 2003 (UTC) Joseph D. Rudmin

If an assumption conflicts with observed facts, debunking it is not POV. Axioms are one thing, facts are another. This is the difference between, say, "God started everything and evolution is how She works" (which isn't refutable or provable) and "there are dinosaur and human footprints together at Paluxy", which is demonstrably false. Vicki Rosenzweig 15:53 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree that debunking an assumption that conflicts with observed facts is not asserting a Point of View. However, it seems to me that there is a "system flaw" if there is not an agreed NPOV procedure for those situations where one side refuses to admit the debunking. Rednblu 17:25 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think the "creation vs. evolution" thing should be gotten rid of... put arguments for/against evolution on the Evolution article (religous arguments would link to Creationism); keep the arguments for/against creation on the Creationism page, where arguments that have to do with evolution would link to Evolution. Sorry if this is unclear... I just think the two articles need to be somewhat seperated... it would avoid confusion, such as the person who keeps adding to this article now. Evil saltine 02:10, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The pseudo-scientific anti-evolutionist claims being added into the article have been disproved countless times, and there is no reason to include them here. Creation science is not only bad science, it is bad religion, and there is no reason to give creation scientists equal time. On this note, creationism is *NOT* synonymous with creation science. The former speaks primarily to theological issues, such as the nature of the primordial first cause, and makes no attempt to intrude upon issues that are properly addressed by science. -- NetEsq 03:19, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I know, I just wanted to organize them so they would be easier to follow. Shouldn't the arguments against evolution be on the evolution page (just as the arguments against creationism should be on the creationism page)? They wouldn't be presented as fact anyway, it includes rebuttals to them. Evil saltine 03:35, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is the text I was proposing... it's not done yet but it will be. Evil saltine 03:38, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What is ultimately needed is an article entitled creation science that is separate and distinct from the article entitled creationism. Under the rubric of such an article, the various straw man arguments repeatedly raised by fundamentalist pseudo-scientists can be discussed, along with comprehensive NPOV rebuttals. -- NetEsq 04:55, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

"Creation science" is a POV title and does not reflect common usage. The appropriate solution is to keep expanding the creationism article in its present form and, if a particular section gets too long, split off that section.—Eloquence 07:01, Sep 22, 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, but it is still about evolution, shouldn't it be under the evolution article except for the part about intelligent design and stuff?

I just think it would make more sense to have the stuff about evolution in the evolution article. I dunno. Evil saltine 07:26, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It wouldn't, because the controversy is not a scientific one.—Eloquence 07:48, Sep 22, 2003 (UTC)

The stuff about micro/macroevolution is a scientific controversy, even though most scientists agree evolution happened, that doesn't mean it's not scientific... (I don't agree with moving it to "Creation science" either) Evil saltine 09:01, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No, there's no controversy within mainstream science about whether macroevolution has occurred. See Creationism#Distribution of creationist views. I find it kind of funny, however, that creationists are ready to admit that viruses and bacteria adapt to changing environments via mutation and natural selection, but rule out the same mechanism over billions of years as applied to larger species (which, of course, formed from smaller ones). Anyway, mainstream science is merely concerned with preventing the political effects of cerationism, nobody with credentials in the field of biology considers the microevolution argument and so-called "intelligent design" theory even moderately plausible. Creationism is purely a political movement masquerading as science.—Eloquence 09:31, Sep 22, 2003 (UTC)

I know, but just because the micro/macroevolution argument is a minority or incorrect opinion doesn't mean it shouldn't be on the same page as evolution. I think "intelligent design" should stay where it is (on the creationism page) though, because it's part of that "theory". Evil saltine 09:48, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It's not just that it is a minority, it is outside the scientific field. Creationists do not do empirical research, they do not use the scientific method, they do not publish in peer reviewed journals. They are much worse than most science-crackpots like Peter Duesberg, yet even in these cases of scientific renegades we treat their perspectives on separate pages. Evolution is, by the very definition, a scientific theory, and by now the standard explanation in the field of biology for the origin of life. As such, people within that field should be cited as authorities about evolution. Creationism is a political-religious movement. As such, people within creationism should describe its tenets, and insofar as creationism challenges the scientific consensus, people within the field of science should be the witnesses of the other side of the story. If you write an article about, say, the various theological understandings concerning Trinity or the theology of Arianism, you would not, in each of these articles, note that atheists and secular humanists think the whole thing is bogus -- that's because theologians can be safely cited as the experts on theology, as long as the article's subject is reasonably narrowly defined. (As a counter example, an article about Jesus Christ or "Virgin" Mary should of course cite secular perspectives.) NPOV is not about pushing all perspectives into the same articles -- it's about attributing views to their adherents and presenting the views of the experts in the field the article is about.—Eloquence 10:07, Sep 22, 2003 (UTC)

I guess I can understand that. Evil saltine 10:40, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Scientific "renegades" like Stuart Kauffman and Michael Behe accept that macro-evolution has occurred: their dispute is on whether it is sufficient, not whether it is necessary. Martin 10:41, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Which, if you think about it, is an even more idiotic position.—Eloquence

While I believe that a separate article entitled creation science would not run afoul of Wikipedia's NPOV concerns, Eloquence is absolutely correct in his assertion that creation science should not be given equal time in the article on evolution. What is most insidious about the creation science movement is its ability to assert some sort of scientific legitimacy when it is clearly based on a religious agenda. Instructive on both of these issues is Joyce Arthur's expose of creation scientist Duane Gish (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/gish.html). In that expose, Arthur disambiguates the term creation science as a particularly insidious form of creationism, then goes on to narrate the effectiveness of the tactics employed by Gish and his ilk. To wit, "Having a debate implies that creation and evolution are on equal terms and that the question of which one is right is an open issue that can be won or lost, and confidently decided, by a non-scientific audience within one evening." -- NetEsq 10:51, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

NPOV

I feel this article doesn't maintain the NPOV.

Modern biology is based on evolution, it is as much a fact as anything else you wish to name in science. Yet the page for evolution is littered with the word "theory" all over it. Compare this to cornerstones in other scientific fields such as chemistry and physics. You won't find anything about gravity being just a theory on it's page, nor do you find anything about only being a theory on the page about the humble atom.

If other scientific fields are stated in a manner that implies their factual basis, I believe that to maintain a NPOV, it requires that biology be treated in the same manner.

ShaneKing 07:46, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have a problem with evolutionists insisting that evolution is a "fact". Evolution cannot be "proven". There may be evidence that implies evolution has occurred, but it cannot be tested like gravity or chemical processes can be. There is evidence that contradicts the theory of evolution. Until somebody invents a time machine, evolution must be regarded as a theory. Some evolutionists like to arrogantly say that their view is "scientific" while those who hold other views are "religious". Well, early scientists once believed that mud could be transformed into a frog. I have spent time around lots of researchers and seen lots of academic dishonesty where data that didn't fit the model was tossed out. Everyone has their biases. Scientists must have the courage to examine information that doesn't fit their model. Both sides must be willing to admit that they don't know everything.

H2O 22:11, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You simply do not understand the meaning of the words as used by scientists in this context. Let me explain. First, evolution is a fact. You are mixing up "evolution" with "the theory of the evolution of species by natural selection." the word "evolution" simply means organic change over time. In other words, you are biologically different from your parents, and your children are different from you. That is all that "evolution" means and it is an obvious fact. But "the theory of the evolution of species through natural selection" is not a fact, it is a theory. NO scientist would ever claim that it is a fact; the words "fact" and "theory" mean different things, and Darwin and the Modern Synthesis are theories, not facts. A theory is a model of the world, or some part of the world. A good theory is one that takes into account many facts, while making few assumptions. The theory of evolution is a great theory because it accounts for lots and lots of facts with very very few assumptions. Third, theories are never proven; neither are hypotheses -- but this is not because theories and hypothesies are "wrong," it is because the word "proof" is not used in the natural sciences. The word "proof" is a technical term that has meaning in geometry and mathematics -- not the natural sciences. In the natural sciences, knowledge is cumulative. That means that our knowledge of the world is always changing. That means that NOTHING is ever "proven." But this does not mean that there is no difference between scientific explanations and religious explanations -- your note seems to assume that what is important is that neither is "proven." But as I said, scientists simply do not care about proof (some religions do care about proof! The word occurs in the Bible, for example). This is not an important distinction between science and religion. The issue is, what kinds of "causes" explain natural phenomena? Creationism and Intelligent Design, for example, posit a non-natural explanation for natural phenomena. But the theory of evolution proposes natural causes for natural phenomena. This is what makes it scientific. You say that both sides must admit they do not know everything. I agree -- this is precisely the problem with religious explanations for evolution. Scientists ALWAYS admit they do not know everything; science by definition asserts that we do not know everything. But it also asserts that we can increase our understanding of the world by observing the world. Alas, it is creationists who claim to know everything; who refuse to admit that they do not know something. Creationists read the Bible and accept it as an authoritative explanation for existence, regardless of any other evidence. When will Creationists admit that the Bible may be wrong and God either may not exist or may not have created the world? Slrubenstein

I once heard Stephen Jay Gould on television state that macroevolution was a fact. He was talking about the evolution of higher forms of life, like humans, from lower forms, such as bacteria. He unequivocally stated that it was a fact. It is that attitude I have a problem with. H2O 00:36, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Here is a local biology professor's web site who states that human macroevolution is a "fact". [1] (http://www2.tltc.ttu.edu/dini/Personal/letters.htm) At one time he would not recommend students for medical school unless they accepted this as fact. An anti-discrimination complaint had to be filed. H2O 11:30, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

We have a clear fossil record of human evolution, and we have a clear absence of the modern human form before the last couple of hundred thousand years. The fossil record is written in stone. It does not lie. We have the same kind of evidentiary record for most life forms or groups of life forms. What, do you think God is a sadistic practical joker? That's the ONLY other possible explanation. Evolution is an irrefutable fact for anyone who is capable of completely logical thought. jaknouse 14:59, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

H20 must not have read what I wrote above -- I clearly stated "evolution is a fact." Micro and macroevolution are not theories, they simply refer to evolution at different scales: microevolution is changes in gene frequencies at a small scale, macro at a large scale. I applaud the professor who won't write letters of recommendation for people who do not understand science. This is discriminatory only in the sense that grades are discriminatory -- they discriminate between students who have learned at students who haven't learned. Is H20 advocating that all people should just get degrees without tests; that anyone should be admitted to graduate school; that there should be no grades? Shouldn't professors teach, and judge students based on what they have learned? A science professor has an obligation to teach science. You do not have to believe in science, but if that is the case, please do not demand an "A" in a science course, or demand a letter of recommendation from a scientist -- that is just absurd! Slrubenstein

Creationists often claim to be attacking Darwinism and/or the "Theory of Evolution" (ie the T f E by Natural Selection) both of which have critics within biological circles - in fact I doubt if anyone would accept Darwin's views as gospel - he knew nothing of genetics after all. What they REALLY are attacking is the whole notion of an old earth and everything that goes with it - paleontology, astronomy, biology - any science which has a basis in the idea of the development of earth, life and the universe over long periods of time. "Scientific" Creationists may accept parts of mainstream science whilst attacking aspects which disagree with their particular views - which are not based on science but on religious conviction. My favourite creationist viewpoint is that God created the earth 6000 years ago but with the appearance of great age. It's totally impossible to refute this! Exile

Creeping creationism

The section on microevolution/macroevolution contains a few bits about creationism that really don't belong here. That kind of stuff should be discussed at creationism.—Eloquence 01:30, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

So evolutionist viewpoints don't belong on the creationism page? Pollinator 03:31, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That would indeed be the case if creationism was a purely theological undertaking. As it seeks to challenge the scientific status quo, however, it must deal with scientific counter arguments. Evolution, on the other hand, is a purely scientific subject, and religious points of view have no place in this article. Until creationism gains any foothold in mainstream science, it doesn't belong here.—Eloquence 03:35, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Evolution, on the other hand, is a purely scientific subject... Ah, we come to the heart of the matter...and it's very much a POV. Evolution has many social, political, and religious ramifications. Pollinator 04:24, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Eloquence's position seems reasonable to me. If you want to discuss those other aspects, why not use evolutionism? Bryan 04:28, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I am not objecting to discussing "social, political and religious ramifications" (although a separate article would be a more appropriate place to do so); I am objecting to mixing creationist pseudoscience and evolutionary theory.—Eloquence 04:31, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

More creationist advocacy

RC, if you want to make substantial changes like this, you should discuss them first. You wrote "see talk" in your edit comment, but there was no comment on the talk page.

Macroevolution is not controversial among biologists. It is controversial among creationists and intelligent design advocates, who have their own culture and their own journals and who are not a significant faction in mainstream science. These views are therefore best discussed in the aforementioned articles. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advocacy of any kind, and right now you are engaging in creationist advocacy.—Eloquence 22:38, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Please leave the creationists out of this. Punctuated equilibrium, macromutations, etc. are ongoing debates and should be mentioned. I'm not a scientist, but I have come across numerous well educated, non-fundamentalist scientists who are skeptics of macro-evolutionary theory, and are definitely aware of it as a debate among scientists. Similar information can be found by doing a Google search on "macroevolution". For instance, there are many evolutionists (such as Gould and Dawkins) who disagree very strongly about aspects of evolutionary theory.

Please read the Macroevolution FAQ (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html) at talkorigins.org. The debate about punctuated equilibrium has nothing whatsoever to do with macroevolution per se, it concerns the mechanism by which it occurs! No reputable biologist questions whether macroevolution has occurred; they discuss (as scientists do) the precise mechanisms of that process.—Eloquence 23:02, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of life and earth scientists accept macroevolution. According to Newsweek in 1987, "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science..." That would make the support for creation science among those branches of science who deal with the earth and its life forms at about 0.14% Newsweek magazine, 1987-JUN-29, Page 23. Also, Gould and Dawkins do disagree on many things, but they accept the fundamental principles put forth by Darwin,common ancestry and natural selection.--JPotter 03:29, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As always the question should be asked: who did the count? And were the questions asked in such a way that the respondants' careers weren't put on the line? With healthy skepticism... Pollinator 04:00, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good questions,Poll, I do not know. However I don't believe Newsweek as any reason to lie. I also believe polling that shows 47% of Americans are young earth creationist. What's most important here is to note that it doesn't matter. Science doesn't operate by majority rule or appeals to authority even. The evidence must stand on its own or fail. In that, the fact that most life and earth scientists accept evo is not evidence for the factuality of evolution. In that same vein, since you claim that there is ongoing controversy and debate between scientists as to the facuality of evolution, then we should be able to look to the scientific jounals to find such a debate. Alas, the debate in not regarding the factuality of evolution, but the mechanisms of. The point ultimately is that questioning of the factuality of evolution is not coming from the scientific community, rather the religious camp, and any one must present evidence to the contrary. If there is a debate among scientists as to the factuality of evolution, where is it taking place? Anyway, Poll, check out my post on Talk:Creationism--JPotter 07:30, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Much of the material in the evolution#Macroevolution vs microevolution section should be merged into macroevolution anyway, it's getting rather long, I suggested editing down to 2-3 paras at most, with a Main articles: Macroevolution, Microevolution and moving much of the material to macroevolution (which could do with some expanding anyway). --Lexor|Talk 13:32, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I moved two creationist web-page links to the creationism articles. Slrubenstein

talk.origins (http://www.talkorigins.org) is NOT a creationist webpage and it definitely deserves to be listed on the evolution page as it is the best collection of FAQs on evolution to be found anywhere online. Cyde

My mistake, I moved the wrong page. I am glad you coaught my error, Slrubenstein

Critical evaluation of evolution

see talk:Evolution/Creationism/DLR.

Creationism

Do you think that Creationism is a necessary evil with regards to evolution? Do you think that evolutionists would continue to theorise about evolution if there were no creationists to keep on trying to disprove it?

two truths

Two truths

If God is almighty and not bound by time; I see no reason, why the story about the creation of the universe, as told in Genesis of the christian Bible, and the scientific story about the appearing of earth, life and man should not both be literally true.

I don't see this idea anywhere in the creation/evolution texts. I think it is an interesting concept to think about. Greetings, Ben

no place for reli views in science articles

I think there is no place in a scientific article for religious views. The following paragraph from the intro I would gladly junk, but perhaps someone can still salvage something from it. I especially object to creationism being placed as another explanation, since it just transports the problem to a more complex level. Who created God? Of course as anyone knows it was Metagod :P Lamarckism on the other hand is a perfectly sound theory which could have been true if only our brains would manipulate our DNA on the basis of our actions, thus improving us as we live. Offending para follows:

"As the theory of evolution by natural selection and genetics has become universally accepted in the scientific community, it has replaced other explanations including creationism and Lamarckism. Skeptics – often creationists – sometimes criticize the presentation of evolution as proven fact rather than scientific theory; defenders object to these criticisms, maintaining that presenting it as "just a theory" constitutes an attempt to characterize it as an arbitrary choice and degrade its claims to truth. Such debates often relate to the scientifically accepted use of the word "theory" to mean a falsifiable and well-supported hypothesis." MarSch 13:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality is disturbed in intro!!!

This is a great article for the evolution THEORY, but part of the introduction is not holding to its neutral requirements. I'm sorry, but as long as evolution is a THEORY, it is prone to remodification. Second of all, it has not replaced creationism as an explanation for the origin of life. If this is the same evolutionary theory that happens along with the Big Bang, then consider this: there are some galaxies that spin clockwise and some that spin counter-clockwise. If the Big Bang is true, it violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. (Think about it.) My point is there are problems with both theories depending on who you ask, but neither has replaced the other. You can't call the Big Bang/evoltuion science if it violates the laws of physics. -Zach from MO 12:23pm, Central Time; 05 Apr, 2005

What? --Ignignot 15:19, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

I must add that it is only called theory because the name has stuck; even christians have given up and agreed to belive it by now. plus in the big bang the forces had not diverged so the laws of physics were different from today most likely

Quote Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: the·o·ry

Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural -ries

Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein

1 the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

2 abstract thought : SPECULATION

3 the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>

4 a a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children :want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in :theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>

5 a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory :of light>

By your logic, the idea that cells exist is prone to remodification, because cells are "just a theory".

Evolution is not supposed to be a replacement for creationism. Creationism if the origin of life. Evolution is the origin of :species. Evolution also has 'absolutely nothing' to do with Big Bang theory.

And the Big Bang doesn't violate any universal laws, because "before" the Big Bang, there was no universe.

--Ryan Salisbury 01:45, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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