Talk:Evolution

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Evolution is a featured article, which means it has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, feel free to contribute.

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Since this talk page has gotten too big to edit for some users, some of the sections are being split off into separate pages:

• Talk:Evolution/Micro vs Macro
• Talk:Evolution/Content and Theory of Evolution
• Talk:Evolution/Genetic drift
• Talk:Evolution/Misc
• Talk:Evolution/Inheritance and genetics
• Talk:Evolution/Creationism
• Talk:Evolution/Archive 1
• Talk:Evolution/Archive 2 (June-September 2004, archived Oct 11)
• Talk:Evolution/Archive 3 (Sept-Dec 2004, archived Apr 9)
• Talk:Evolution/Archive 4 (Jan-Mar 2005, archived Apr 9)
• Talk:Evolution/Archive 5 (Apr 2005, archived Apr 27) - Radiometric dating
• Talk:Evolution/Archive 6 (Mar-April 2005, archived April 28; mostly discussions involving creationism)
• Talk:Evolution/Archive 7 (April-May)

Contents

1 Evolution vs Theory of Evolution 2 NPOV 3 Darwin - father of "modern" evolutionary theory 4 Random change 5 Macro/Micro 6 Hovind nonsense

Evolution vs Theory of Evolution

Excellent article. I looked it up after reading a newspaper article about the Design Intelligence vs Evolution argument in Kansas. One thing I do not understand and did not find in the article is how scientists distinguish between the fact of evolution and the mechanism of evolution. I thought evolution was the fact and the mechanism of evolution was the theory. Apparently I am wrong. Your article states that the theory contains both.

If the Theory of Evolution contains elements that are open to dispute, doesn't that mean the Theory of Evolution is open to dispute. So, what I do not understand is why one part is not stated as fact and the other part not stated seperately as theory.

I know - I don't understand what a scientific theory is. :)

But I do know that this is a problem for a lay person trying to understand. -someone

hey I think part of the confusion your having revovles around the idea of what exactly is a fact. I think most people would agree that it is impossible to prove most anything is 100% true. but there comes a point when the chances of something not being true becomes so small that you might as well just consider it true. just about every single "law" of science is a a theory whether its gravity or what not, and in many cases it was later found out that those laws were wrong but not by much. a big issue that most scienctist have with Creationism is that it doesn't offer a better explanation of what is believed to have happened. if anyone else feels like adding anything go for it.--Stranger 09:03, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)

NPOV

Does this article need the NPOV dispute flag or not? I can't tell, to many reversions back and forth >.<--Tznkai 18:13, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. NPOV 01:05 9 June 2005 by 65.13.0.185 without explanation on talk page [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evolution&diff=14905606&oldid=14905536), who then reverted 2 minutes later. Dunc|☺ 19:03, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Darwin - father of "modern" evolutionary theory

I've changed the caption on the image of Darwin to suggest that he's the father of evolutionary theory, and not "modern" evolutionary theory. Would everyone agree with this? He's not the father of "modern" evolutionary theory, which has changed quite a lot since his first publication. Nevertheless, if there are other theories of evolution which we consider pre-modern (or pre-Darwin), then perhaps Darwin could be considered father of the modern version. 66.143.145.170 14:27, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See the discussion higher up this page. Guettarda 15:08, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's sort of a hard question, though. "Modern" evolutionary theory sounds a lot like the "modern synthesis", which is not what Darwin was about. Darwin was not the founder of "evolutionary theory" in general though, which goes back before Darwin. Saying he was the father of "Darwinian evolutionary theory, on which all modern evolutionary theory is based" is redundant and unwieldy and skips the point. So I just changed the caption in question to say that he was the the founder of the theory of natural selection, which is true enough. --Fastfission 18:55, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The "modern synthesis" is a synthesis of Darwin's theory of evolution, and Mendel's theory of genetics. So it would be accurate to say "Darwin is the founder of modern evolutionary theory," "Mendel is the father of modern genetics," and "Darwin and Mendel are the two fathers of the Modern Synthesis." Please remember that this is a metaphor, and remember how this metaphor works. Do remember that children are not the same as their parents, and do grow up. To say that my father is the father of the modern me does not mean that everything I believe is identical to his beliefs. To say that Darwin is the father of Modern Evolutionary theory is to say just that -- he fathered it (well, really, we should say Darwin and Wallace). This statement in no way mdash; in no way whatsoever — suggests that all elements of the modern synthesis or any other contemporary evolutionary models were devised by him. This is just not what "father" means. People in the United States often call Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, and Franklin the "founding fathers" of the United States. No one thinks that they founded the United States up until Jackson became president. The US they founded is the US that exists today, not in spite of all the changes but rather because of the changes, because "fathers" father things that take a life of their own and change.Slrubenstein | Talk 20:10, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

SLR, I'll thank you to keep your disgusting ideas about same-sex parentage to yourself. Graft 00:56, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry! It is the anthropologist in me ... ;-)

Darwin devised the ideas of natural selection and sexual selection, with the former being generally regarded as the more important. We can simply say this, rather than inaccurately suggesting that Darwin created that which is today thought of as modern evolutionary theory.

One of the more common errors made by folks arguing for creationism is to claim that modern evolutionary science is the same thing as "Darwinism"; that it is based on Darwin's writings in the same sense that creationism is based on the Bible; that therefore any errors or omissions in Darwin's work remain errors or omissions in modern science; and therefore that by refuting passages from Darwin they can refute evolutionary science. This is a bad error, and it is encouraged by presenting Darwin too strongly in discussing evolution. --FOo 01:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree that when talking about Darwin, we should stress the significance of his idea of "natural selection." And I certainly agree with you that we must make clear all the advances in evolutionary theory since Darwin, especially where contemporary evolutionary biologists and biological anthropologists have diverged from claims made by Darwin. But that does not change the fact that Darwin (with an un-named partner whose gender I will refrain from mentioning) is the father of evolutionary theory. As I said, my father is my father -- but despite my having half his genes, and that he was a major influence in my life for 18-21 years, does not mean that he is responsible for who I am today. You seem to misunderstand what it means to say someone was the "father" of something. I agree with you that this article must anticipate creationist arguments. But we should not give into creationists by allowing their villification of Darwin to lead us to under-emphasize his importance.Slrubenstein | Talk 02:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The modern synthesis is a bit more complicated than that historically speaking. It's a mix of Darwinian natural selection, Galtonian statistical approaches to heredity, Mendelian notions of genetics, mixed up in a biological/statistical soup by a number of rather intelligent fellows. Darwin would himself find it quite unlike any of his visions of evolution — it is very much a 20th-century creation, very different in approach and method than Darwin's 19th-century Humboldtian mind. That's my take on it, anyway.

About "fatherhood": I think it's a hard thing to really sort out rigorously, and its an especially difficult historical picture. A lot of it comes down to what we conclude Darwin's "contribution" was, but of course we are walking through history backwards when we do that. Darwin thought sexual selection was a contribution on par with natural selection, and thought Pangenesis would, er, pan out in the end. He also considered himself having given a major contribution to racial theory (he didn't believe natural selection had anything to do with it) and a cogent understanding of how to approach the question of the evolution of human behavior (see what dogs do, think of it as a simplified version of humanity), none of which were terribly influential either in their own day or in the present. We're doing something somewhat artifical by taking one child among many, clearly. Why Lamarck, Huxley, Galton, and Fisher weren't, in their own ways, fathers, is worth considering. And while Wallace might have been necessary for the coitus, it is worth asking whether he really contributed an equal amount of materials to the final mixture!

It's worth remembering that specifically Darwinian evolution was in considerably dire straights in the scientific community until the modern synthesis came around, I think saying that Darwin is the father of "modern" evolutionary theory could be a bit misleading (especially with the association of "modern" with the modern synthesis). Anyway -- I think labeling Darwin as "Charles Darwin, creator of the theory of evolution by natural selection" gets the point across pretty well! Nobody of course is arguing that Darwin doesn't deserve a primary role here; it's just a matter of being precise about what he did, I think.

---Fastfission 03:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It now says 'creator' which I find a little odd. 'Father' atleast suggests that the idea canhave continued to 'evolve' if you will. 'Creator', to me, suggests that the current theories are all his. -- Ec5618 17:36, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. --Fastfission 21:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Random change

Should we mention in the intro that Evolution does not actually mean 'random' change? A vandal recently inserted the word 'random' in front of every mention of 'evolution' or 'change'. I think thatsort of thinking (a common misconception) should be nipped in the bud. -- Ec5618 17:36, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Drift is already poorly understood; it shouldn't be subordinated to selection in the intro. Graft 20:21, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think I understand the editors adding of 'random', and I'm vehemently pro-evolution. If not for the fact that it specifically noted 'in other fields' he would have been completely correct. What most people don't understand is that the mutations are random, I had a biology teacher that repeatedly referred to mutations as 'the body changing to fit the environment' which is just wrong entirely. Too many people get the idea that the mutations are all good, or are all active, or that all the past ones are still in the gene pool.

The changes are completely random, it is only through the process of survival of the fittest that the bad ones are eliminated and the good ones spread to further generations. And I think if you were to make that mention in the intro it would very much confuse people and do more harm than good. Jimbobsween 03:00, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good points, truly. My addition of the word 'selective' was premature. Nevertheless, shouldn't this article address some the bigger misconceptions about evolution. The 'selective randomness' should, I feel, be addressed. While the change may be random in a single generation, the intro talks of change over generations, which does include selection, does it not? -- Ec5618 08:54, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

It is crucial that we start by emphasizing that the variation within a population typically owes to random genetic mutations. As for "evolution" itself, I think "random" is the wrong word for the right idea. "Stocastic" is more accurate, as would be "non-teliological," or "undirected and undirectional." Slrubenstein | Talk 13:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Since, very roughly, evolution = mutation + selection + drift, and mutation + drift are stochastic processes, "random" is maybe appropriate. Selection is definitely non-random, so I don't think we're going to find a convenient adjective here. Better to leave it out, eh. If we could find a pithy sentence encapsulating the idea completely, wherefore the rest of the article? Graft 23:12, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oooh Ooh! Lemme try!

Evolution is the process which is the result of selection operating on variation.

YAY! Done. Beat that! ;-)

Now you still need to expand that into a non-jargon explanation, but that's basically it. :-P (also note that in this version, creationists can't argue with it. I've had some try. :-) )

(Note that variation and sources of variation are not very clear in wikipedia. Variation need not be genetic, need not be due to mutation. Also, selection need not be natural. In general, basic biology coverage in wikipedia seems to suck :-/ ) Kim Bruning 09:32, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have just one problem with the word "random". While there is certainly an element of randomness involved in variation (which need not be due to genetic mutation at all! Think recombination), it's not -exactly- random in the sense that most people would see it. The dice are strongly loaded! (Think Genetic linkage for starters.) Kim Bruning 07:32, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Macro/Micro

Err, this macroevolution hangup is creeping backing into the page. Can we have this out once and for all? I didn't get anything really meaningful out of the archive (Talk:Evolution/Micro_vs_Macro), other than there's a few papers with uses of 'macroevolution' in pubmed and Gould uses it. Graft 20:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A couple of years afo I added definitions of micro- and macro-evolution stating that they involved the same mechanisms but at different scales. Gould's latest (last) theories aside, this still seems to me to be reasonable. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:07, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I seem to remember we had an argument about this a while ago. I don't agree with that. For example, genome duplication is almost certainly going to be a speciation event, a clear mechanistic difference between micro- and macro-evolution. Graft 20:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is what I mean by "different scales." Slrubenstein | Talk 19:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Graft is right - genome duplication is the easiest way to create a new species (Triticale blows the creationist argument that speciation has never been observed ouit fo the water). Since it necessarily results in speciation, it is a purely macroevolutionary process. Any sort of genome re-arrangement will similarly be a purely macroevolutionary process. On the other hand, the changes that are "macroevolutionary" in the creationist parlance (e.g., evolution of wings) probably rely on the same processes as microevolution (and depending on your prespective, can be microevolutioanry, since they do not have to involve a speciation event, but instead probably happened within lineages that split for other reasons). Guettarda 22:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

At the current level of detail/quality on wikipedia, could we just say for now that macroevolution==microevolution==molecular evolution==evolution~=darwinism and leave it at that? Currently, splitting the (extremely thin!) hairs on these topics isn't going to be helpful imho. Kim Bruning 09:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Err... now I'm no longer clear on terminology. Is macroevolution speciation and the like, or is it drastic phenotypic evolution? Graft 19:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, macroevolution is change between species - speciation and up. But I don't have a ref handy. Guettarda 00:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Check this (http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/abstract/gr.3916405v1) out. Graft 13:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks. Guettarda 14:03, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think that the micro/macro distinction is a Divide et imperia tactic used by ID folks to cast confusion and bewilderment into the ranks of their opponents to cover their God of the gaps style retreat.

Must be me! There's an old comment of mine in the archives where I searched pubmed. No one seems to have looked at it for maybe a year or so, so off I go and actually make a change for once ;-)

Kim Bruning 17:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Although macroevolution/macro-evolution accounts for only 144 and microevolution/micro-evolution accounts for only 213 "Subject" entries in Biological Abstracts in the period 1969-2004, as opposed to 134765 subject entries for "evolution", if you break it down by decade you can see that macro- & micro- are being more important terms:

Period	Macro	Micro	Evolution
1970-1979	0	0	21,384
1980-1989	0	0	26,125
1990-1999	41	98	50,441
2000-2004	100	114	34041

Of course people are more likely to just use "evolution", but there is substantial use of the other terms in recent years. Guettarda 20:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cool work!

Did you read all the titles and/or abstracts too? I was crazy enough to do that once. Let me see if I can remember...

I think all micro/macro articles were like either on creationism or ID debate, mostly reports from conferences at that, and a number of philosophy of science articles, but practically none from biologists. Is that about right?

Hmmm, and on a total of 34041, even if they *had* all been by biologists, it might be a bit premature to give the terms any prominence perhaps.

Kim Bruning 21:14, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kim - I haven't gotten through them all, but BA indexes peer-reviewed scientific journals (so weeds out the creationists) and all but one of the 2004 papers were hard science, not social-political impacts. 100+ articles in the last 5 years is pretty substantial. When I reverted the anon I went back to Dunc's version because I didn't feel all that comfortable reverting to your version. I would not have reverted your edits otherwise, but since I was reverting I felt I should revert to the version I was more comfortable with. Guettarda 01:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. 100 articles in the last 5 years is not much in a field as large as biology. But ok... maaaaybe. We'd have to start reading some of them to see what's up. Could you download some representative pdfs from your search, or maybe like get your library to forward copies to me (contact me per email on how-to) or so? Kim Bruning 01:57, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I emailed you - hopefully the Wikipedia email works this time. I am not saying that this is or is not...it seems notable to me, but my positions are not set in stone or anything. Guettarda 02:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Adaptive radiation" gets 194 hits on pubmed. "Muller's ratchet" gets 66. "Selective sweep" gets 95. Not nearly as many as "evolution", but idiosyncratic terms within a field obviously shouldn't. Graft 02:51, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hovind nonsense

Removed the following bit from the article:

Some creationists, such as Dr. Kent Hovind, believe that evolution is the basis for Nazism, Communism, Marxism, Mother Earth worship, racism, and that "dinosaurs were in the Garden of Eden, have always lived with man, were on the ark with Noah, and that a few may still be alive today in some parts of the world."

as it includes inflammatory comments by a diploma mill Dr of religion plus a direct quote with no referenced source. This nonsense doesn't help the article and is inflamatory POV - even if sourced. Vsmith 13:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree. What's the POV? That Hovind is a ridiculous jackass, and people who side with him are loony? That's what I get from that quote. I might agree with avoiding the "Dr.", though. Graft 14:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah Hovind's bonkers, and even YECs who have some fairly bonkers view themselves, can see this. But don't place too muhc emphasis on it though, he may be a nutter but he'snot a serious a threat as the IDiots, or for that matter the "mainstream" YECs. If you do that you create a POV strawman of creationism, which is sinking to their level. Dunc|☺ 14:58, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this. As a representation of Hovind's views, it is accurate. The question is whether not Hovind just provides an easy strawman. However his views that evolution is the basis of Nazism, Communism, and racism are not limited to just him -- a good deal of the YECs and the IDers subscribe to this as well. --Fastfission 02:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pardon, he's not an easy strawman. So far he has been quite successful in debating the top scientists. By the way, that expression - "IDiots" - really shows the resolve that you folks are showing with this debate. Answer this question: do you think that such harsh disparagement towards your objectors serves a worthwhile purpose in this nationwide debate? Hey, don't get me wrong - you don't want to stoop to their (the creationists') level. Also, do you think that it would be more difficult for communism, Marxism, Nazism, etc to emerge in a country that possesses an atheistic Darwinian majority or a country which possesses a theistic Christian majority? In my opinion it is imperative that you first listen to Dr. Hovind before you draw conclusions about him. He is a little wacko sometimes, but he nonetheless appears to be sensible in his assumptions about our classrooms and morality, and their respective relation to evolutionary core ideologies. Salva 23:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have listened to Hovind. The whole seminar, much of it twice. He is more than just a little wacko, but highly entertaining. I guess what caused me to make up my mind about him was his presentation on how biochip implants are probably the "mark of the beast" referred to in Revelations. Of course it would be easier for Marxism to arise in an atheistic country, but this doesn't mean that evolution is the "basis" for Marxism. You suggest a false dichotomy. There are theistic Christians who do not reject the theory of Darwin. Roman Catholicism never explicitly rejected evolution and has affirmatively stated that the theory is not inimical to the Christian faith for over fifty years. Yet few (other than Jack Chick and co.) would suggest that the Catholic Church laid the seeds for Marxism in not rejecting evolution.

Is any of this relevant to this page? I suppose Kent Hovind could be considered a strawman. Answers in Genesis has disavowed him specifically. But I'm sure he's not the only YEC who has made the statement about evolution being the basis for Nazism, Communism, etc. Perhaps we should just modify the quote to delete the reference to Hovind. E.g. "some creationists believe that ..." -- Temtem 23:34, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

The fact that Hovind may not be the best exemplar does not make it better to replace a reference to him with weasel terms. Hovind does make the claims that are referenced, and he is apparently notable. It might be best to put in some more names, or better yet cite an organization, but by all means it would be a bad idea to not cite anything specific at all. siafu 23:41, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'll agree with that. -- Temtem 23:43, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ditto.

Salva, being a fundamentalist Christian, this may be hard for you to understand, but Christianity has killed millions upon millions of people. From World War II to the Crusades, from Ancient Rome to modern homophobes, Christians have been incredibly destructive people. Communism is not scary; it is simply silly and unable to work because people are selfish. It might work in small groups, but it is not a viable economic strategy in a large population. Moreover, though many equate it with a government, the fact of the matter is that the governments of China and the USSR may have embraced (or claimed to embrace) a communistic economic system, their governments were not "communist" but of other forms. In any event, communism is not a bad thing, just a rather pathetic one. Relgion is inherently a bad thing, because it blocks out the ability for people to understand the world.

It is far easier to control a nation of religious folk; this is known as a theocracy, and is the current goal of the religious right; their intent in banning evolution from public schools is to promote ignorance, because then it allows them to take over and make their archaic superstitious taboos laws of the land. Religion is the single most powerful theory in all of science, and is probably the best supported - I cannot think of any other that surpass it.

It is best if people think for themselves, and teaching them science is the best route towards that. By being able to look at and understand the world, superstition is destroyed and more advancements can be made. Science destroys religion because it allows people to understand the world and draw logical conclusions, rather than having to believe the words of their elders/witch doctors/shamans/clerics/kazoo-playing bum down the street.

Hovind is an incompetant who does not deserve the name of "doctor". If people were smarter, he'd be penniless or pursuing a more constructive career. He does not understand science and does not understand evolution, or if he does, he willfully misrepresents it. I think he is a fine example of creationism, because there are many people who think the way he and others (such as Jack Chick) do. Just because they are zealots does not mean that they should not be mentioned. ID is another example of creationist idealogy, and I'd argue they are zealots too who do not understand/willfully misrepresent science. Titanium Dragon 05:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Correct, Temptem, it is not in fact the basis, but evolutionary ideology does make it much easier for the above to flourish.
• Hovind has 7 seminars. I would probably recommend about 3 out of those seven for serious viewing. Also, you might want to consider watching him slam Michael Shermer in the debate posted on his website before you label Hovind a complete moron.
• Hitler believed the Jews were an inferior race. (Evolutionary thinking.) The soviets taught their kids evolution in school because they knew it was a core ideology of communism itself. Salva 01:40, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Before you go marching down this road with your reductio ad Hitlerum, keep in mind that the Nazis were Christians, not to mention that you should probably find a source for your rather outlandish claim that the Soviet Union (or any other communist for that matter) saw the theory of evolution as the core ideology of communism. Racism and anti-semitism are not the results of the theory of evolution; they existed long before Darwin or Lamarck, and continue to exist to this day despite them. siafu 02:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)