Talk:Evolution/Archive 1

Contents

1 Modern synthesis 2 Drift 3 Recruiting for Wikibooks Biology book(s) 4 Non-linear 5 Computer models 6 Neo-structuralist 7 Creationism and Atheism 8 Probable Mutation Event 9 Proposal to split article 9.1 Proposed subpages 10 Suggested fixes for someone with edit privileges to make to the outline of Evolution

Modern synthesis

We need a part or even better a separate article about the modern synthesis, i.e. the theory as it was formed in the thirties of the last century. Then the article could elaborate more on the developments of the last seventy years. As it is at the moment the article is still quite incomplete. Any takers? JackH 19:38, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Looks like we already have the beginnings of an article on the modern synthesis. However, we must note that the modern synthesis did, indeed could not have existed before 1961. It wasn't until that year that we finally figured out how DNA encoded genetic information. Also, we must change the text; the modern synthesis is not based on Mendel's theory that genes might exist. Rather, it is based on the now proven fact that they do exist, and that we discovered their exact molecular structure, and how they encode biological information. RK 21:05, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

1953 DNA structure is resolved to be a double helix by James Watson and Francis Crick

1958 The Meselson-Stahl experiment demonstrates that DNA is semiconservatively replicated

1961 The genetic code is found to be arranged in triplets

Drift

In the section "Differential survival", there appear to be two types listed, "natural selection" and "genetic drift". I believe that I have been told that there is a third, whose proper name I don't recall--something like the keyhole effect. It is when a population drop causes mutations to become much more able to propagate and dominate rapidly, I think. The name has something to do with the population passing through a narrow channel (narrow in terms of numbers of individuals). If this is correct, perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I may be able to mention this intelligently :) Pagan 10:42, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The term is bottleneck, and it is a situation where genetic drift is is very strong (selection is weak). AdamRetchless 23:52, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Recruiting for Wikibooks Biology book(s)

Warm greetings from sister project Wikibooks where I am writing a general biology textbook all by my lonesome. My profs donated a sizable bunch of notes that make up the structure of an entire introductory biology book. However these notes are in outline form and need to be fleshed out into full text. Then, some images .. I am confident that this will become the standard college text over time but need some help to get it there. --karlwick

Non-linear

Anyone able to lead me to sources (preferably accesible to layfolks) discussing non-linear evolution? I found scant mention of this, the influence or study of discontinuity, shock, disaster, etc in evolution, in Thomas A. Sebeok's Zoosemiotics, but apparently lost the note I wrote to myself. Hyacinth 18:42, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Computer models

Hey everyone, I think it would be nice to have a brief mention somewhere (maybe on developments?) on the modeling of evolution on computers, like in evolutionary models of artificial life... there seems to be a lot of people working on computer models which show evolving virtual creatures like animats or using the basic ideas of evolution to arrive at software solutions which could have a small mention (like 1 one sentence). Is there anybody who knows more about this or who thinks it is worth a mention? (not wanting to enter in any controversy :-)). Thanks144.136.150.158 06:35, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Neo-structuralist

I removed the last sentence of the "neo-structuralist" section. I have no idea of what the author was trying to say, and the grammer was off. Since I couldn't make any sense of the sentence, I couldn't fix the grammer. Hence, it is here.

This line of inquiry is criticised by classic Darwinists such as Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, who perceive the intrusion of certain kinds of ordering in an evolutionary scenario a step away from strict materialism based on random, non-directed processes.

Huh? First, is that supposed to read "who percieve the intrusion...AS BEING a step away from strict materialism..."? Since the terminology is so strange I can't really tell. What is this "intrusion of certain kinds of ordering"? Is there a problem with "strict materialism based on random, non-directed processes"? No biologist would say that evolution is a directed process. AdamRetchless 22:03, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Creationism and Atheism

What's the problem with mentioning that creationists think that evolution is connected to atheism? Don't they? Is the section getting too long? AdamRetchless 23:24, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Assuming that can be handled as an NPOV topic, shouldn't it be put in the Creationism article? Many Creationists likely do think that Evolutionists are all athiests (or even devil worshippers), but this article isn't about what Creationists think, it's about the Evolutionists' view of the world, and your average scientist studying Evolution isn't really thinking of himself and his cohorts as athiests. Also, that's a hard thing to backup with facts, it seems more like unrelated info about what sort of character attacks Creationists have made against Evolution. - Eisnel 23:45, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think that it is important in describing why creationists are so fanatical about their opposition to evolution. I did a Google search and found a lot of pages that included both "Atheism" and "Evolution". It had about 1/6 the hits that "Atheism" alone did. If this article is going to keep a section about creationism, then I think this is relevant. A while ago, we talked about splitting out another article called "theory of evolution" which dealt with the history of the idea and the social issues surrounding the idea, but I guess that went no-where. If we did that and put a link to it in the introduction, I'd be happy to take creationism out of the article entirely. AdamRetchless 23:59, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think you're on the right track there, it's too bad the split idea went nowhere. I certainly agree that it's important to document the debate between Darwinian Evolution and Creationism and the long standing animosity among their most fervent supporters. Yes, I think it needs its own article. Sorta like you suggested, but with a name that suggests the article is about the debate itself ("Theory of evolution" sounds like it should just link back to "Evolution" or info on Darwin's Origin of the Species). I think this could be handled like the Abortion article, which takes a technical approach to the subject, and then links to articles like Morality and legality of abortion, which take on the debate and moral issues. If something similar were to happen here, then the Evolution article could be technical, appropriate for those who want to know the science behind evolution and not get mired down in the debate, and it could link (at appropriate points) to articles about the debate. I noticed that there is an article sorta like that called Argument from evolution, however its name doesn't do a good job of describing what it's about, its intro says its about the argument over whether Evolution proves the non-existance of God, and after that it's rather unstructured. My concern now is that the Evolution article handles a lot of technical data (about a very broad subject), and then at the end throws in info about the social debate. But if we keep adding info about the debate, it's gonna get really long (like my comment here), so I think the debate either deserves its own article or needs to stick to the main points and avoid getting lost in the details. I think an article about the debate would also help tighten up the Creationism article. Also, to take a cue from the Abortion series of articles, they have an article about Abortion Law; wouldn't an article about Evolution/Creationism law (both in the U.S. and abroad) be cool?

The science of evolution in itself doesn't have anything to do with the debate as such and is not by any means necessarily associated with atheism. If someone thinks that, put it in an article on the religious debate, not in the article proper. Sure, the debate should be mentioned, but some of us believe in God and evolution and have NO problem what-so-ever with it. I'm really not trying to be contrary or anything, but I do feel a bit strong about this, so help me understand if you don't think I'm seeing it right. If there's a problem with the change I made, switch it back and we'll discuss it. --DanielCD 13:40, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

First, I think that the new statement is redundant with the statement immediately following it (evolutionary creationism). Other than that, I see three main topics in the creationism section

Their criticisms of evolution and explanations

Their general beliefs

Their political actions

Really, none of these has anything to do with the science of evolution (facts and theory as presented by professional scientists). We could include creationist explanations as modified versions of evolutionary theory, but even that would be better under somewhere else (origin of life, creationism). Their general beliefs are only relvant if this is viewed as a social studies section (I think commenting on atheism is appropriate in this context). Similarly, their political actions are only relvant if this is social studies.

If we are going to mention atheism, we should probably mention the various theistic views that can include evolution (such as deism), but that would get rather long. However, if we are going to mention the religious beliefs of creationists, then we should mention how evolution ties into their religious beliefs (connection with atheism). We could just limit the section to listing the creationist explanations, without mentioning their beliefs. However, that wouldn't be good because that might imply that these criticisms are coming from professional scientists. I don't think that there is a way to briefly discuss creationism, and I think that it should not be allowed to dominate the article. Therefore, I think it would be good to remove all of the social studies material to another article that we link to in the introduction. AdamRetchless 14:22, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, atheism is the Creationists' term in that it's describing something relative to themselves; it's not a term evolutionists use to describe themselves, and is not 'religious' as such. I don't think the comment is redundant with the next paragraph at all, it kinda leads in to it, but if it's that important to you, change it back.

As far as a new article, I think that might work. It does merit a mention here though, that some people disagree with evolution and maybe some scientific criticisms. --DanielCD 15:46, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It sounds like people are cool with the idea of a new article, but I just noticed that there is already an article called Evolution and creationism about the debate. Maybe all of this stuff that we've been talking about should go there? It's got a year-long history, but it's not very long, and it could certainly use a lot more stuff. It hasn't been updated very much recently, and it's an orphaned article, I don't know why it doesn't have a link here. The Evolution#Creationism_and_evolution section could link to that article. Then the Evolution article could be kept technical, and even the Creationism article could be made more focused. So check out that article, see about adding all of the info on the debate into that. - Eisnel 18:07, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Excellent point, Eisnel. This article should contain the absolute minimum amount of material necessary to ensure NPOV and to acknowledge the debate, such as it is, and a link to s separate article. Slrubenstein

I think that there is more to it than just Creationism. I'm thinking of an article that does a much more extensive review of the development of evolutionary theory and its impact on society. Creationism will be important since it was dominant in the Western world before Darwin (I lost my train of thought). Anyway, I think some books have been written about the philosophical implications of evolution (Darwin's Dangerous Idea), and we could talk about various spin-offs that have been inspired Darwinism (Social Darwinism). We could also discuss its reception in schools, how widely accepted it is in society, and such. It looks like Evolution and creationism is technical, while Creationism doesn't have much of a historical perspective and wouldn't be appropriate for other social controversies related to evolution. AdamRetchless 18:29, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Probable Mutation Event

I don't know why "Probable Mutation Event" has it's own section. It seems to just be a consequence of mutation and selection (or lack of), which are already discussed in the article. It has been removed to here AdamRetchless 20:09, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Probable Mutation Effect is a proposed mechanism whereby structures that may have been beneficial to an organism become, for one reason or another, unimportant to its survival. Consequently the genes controlling this structure will degenerate through the acquisition of deleterious mutations, as they are no longer under selective pressure.

This is not a term found commonly in the scientific literature and I could only find 36 Google hits, usually this concept is grouped under the notion of the pseudogene, or associated with gene duplication, and I would suggest the wording be changed accordingly to point to those articles. The Muller's ratchet is also relevant to this discussion. --Lexor|Talk 01:06, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Proposal to split article

I propose that we split this into two articles: one to cover the science (facts and current theory) and one to cover the development of the idea of evolution. This will allow us to give more extensive treatment to the science and not get distracted by discussion of other explanations. It will also provide us with a separate article to discuss the historical interaction of evolution and other explanations (with approrpriate pointers), the historical development of the theory of evolution (including the contribution of fields such as geology), the spread of the theory of evolution (Darwin's bulldog and other popularizers), and the impact of the theory on other disciplines (philosphy, theology, and sociology)

I think that these pages should be called "evolution" (explanatoin of the science) and "theory of evolution" (social impact of the idea). Apparently, not everyone likes using "theory of evolution" in this manner, but it is acurate (we will be talking about the idea, i.e., the theory of evolution). Other possible names include: theory of evolution by natural selection; history of the theory of evolution; social context of the theory of evolution; scientific and social controversies surrounding the theory of evolution.

When we make this new article, this statement should be placed in the introduction: "The theory of evolution by natural selection can be traced back to Charles Darwin, who proposed the first plausible explanation for why life changes over time. This theory has been the focus of many scientific and social controversies ever since, and has had a widespread impact on other fields thought. While evolution is still subject to intense research, several tenets are subject to scientific consensus. These are described below." -- AdamRetchless

I agree that there may be value to a separate page on the social history and impact of the idea of evolution. However, I do not think that as a result all discussion of the social history and impact of evolution should be excised from this article. I believe that would only contribute to what C.P. Snow described as the problem of two cultures, which isolates the sciences from the rest of society. I also think it would ill-serve our readers. I would say that this article (focussing as it does on the science) should have the bare minimum discussion of social context in order to be accurate, and to provide readers with reasons they might want to follow the link to the page you propose. I believe this reflects the general style of WIkipedia. For example, there are currently three paragraphs on creationism in this article. I do not think that is excessive, although perhaps one paragraph would suffice. My point is just that we not only provide a link to another article, we provide a minimum amount of discussion in this page. This is a good idea. Slrubenstein

No, please, don't call the second article theory of evolution, we already had an article called that (which covered the science aspect), and did a merge (see the Talk page history), so let's not open that can of worms again, it will confuse readers and editors alike (especially those familiar with the history of this page). An article with another title addressing the social controversies would be OK, but let's leave the science article here at evolution and the social/historical one can have another title, but not "theory of evolution". I also agree with SLR that we should leave a summary in this page, as per usual wikipedia standards of having Main article: link with a 2-3 para summary of the linked-to "Main article". --Lexor|Talk 01:12, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Evolutionary theory (referenced from 3.3 The evolution of altruism) already exists, but redirects straight back to Evolution. I disagree with Lexor that the science aspects should remain here because - as the very first sentence says - "Evolution is any process of growth or development that entails change." The Evolution article can talk about how the word evolution is currently used in a biology context, but the current expression of evolutionary theory is the Modern synthesis, which is currently covered by a pretty sketchy article. Any general history in the Evolution article can then talk about the progression from Darwin (and link to him) through Mendelian inheritance to the discovery of DNA then genetics and how these are now all synthesised together. The appropriate place to gather the current scientific view is thus under Modern synthesis. Noisy 08:22, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Lexor. theory of evolution and evolutionary theory should redirect back to evolution because of . It would be possible to have subpages, e.g. History of evolutionary thought. Looking at special:whatlinkshere/evolution, several pages have links in them via theory of evolution and evolutionary theory. The talk.origins archive has several suitable pages ideal for digesting and regurgitating onto a subpage. Dunc_Harris|☺ 14:42, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In light of what's been said here, I'm thinking that we should have an introductory section (in place of the "Modern Usage" section) which explains the social importance/influence of evolutionary thought, and points to the main article, History of evolutionary thought. That could be followed with a section on the modern synthesis, in place of the current "scientific theory" section. Finally, we could finish with ideas that fall outside of the modern synthesis, such as symbiogenesis and complexity theory. AdamRetchless 18:19, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think we need more than one subpage. I think a social effect of the theory of evolution would be a good article to write. Dunc_Harris|☺ 15:37, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think that there's bound to be a lot of overlap between an article about the history of evolutionary thought and the social impact of such thought. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but at the moment I don't think that we have enough content to justify splitting the content to that level, such that each article will have a significant amount of unique information. The history of evolutionary thought needs to be considered in the context of other explanations for the diversity of life (spontaneous generation, creationism, pre-scientific evolutionism), which are also important in describing the social effects of evolutionism. If I'm not mistaken, both Linneaus and Lamarck believed in creationism, in some form or another. Further, much of the content might reflect the impact of the theory of evolution on other fields of knowlege, and that seems like it would fit in both articles. If we make one article now, I see no reason that we won't be able to split it in the future when we have more content. AdamRetchless 18:54, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Proposed subpages

please add/ comment

• History of evolutionary thought (better than history of evolution which could refer to the history of life or the idea).
• social effect of the theory of evolution

Actually, there is a page on Social evolution -- why not work on that page? Rather than creating many new pages, I think the first thing is to inventory pages already existing on forms and impacts of the idea of evolution, and make sure there are appropriate links. Slrubenstein

I agree with SLR, let's inventory the pages first, and come up with a structure. Whatever we do, we should aim to preserve evolution as the primary "parent" article. I'm happy with splitting off large amounts of specialized articles to other articles (they're not subpages, by the way, that refers to an obsolete syntax where articles would have a structure like Evolution/History Evolution/Social and that style is now deprecated), so long as a summary of each article is kept in the main article, with prominent Main article: links as we have now. I'm inclined to move history of evolutionary thought to history of evolutionary biology, if the article's scope is primarily about biological evolution. But let's inventory the pages first:

• evolution
• evolutionary biology (please don't merge this with evolution because this is about the discipline not the process, viz cell vs cell biology and would cover things like institutions, journals, academic structures etc. not relevant in the evolution article, and if fact may serve as a good place to discuss the history of the discipline, in place of history of evolutionary thought)
• modern evolutionary synthesis

Also, it may be profitable to consult some other encyclopedias to get an idea of what kinds of structures they use for the topic. --Lexor|Talk 01:09, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think evolution should be the disambiguation page, since there are non-scientific meanings that relate to the term also. --Samuel Wantman 06:29, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We should not turn this page into a disambiguation page. Among English speakers (the audience for this encyclopedia) the word "evolution" almost always means biological evolution, which is the precise topic of this article. When people go to a library or an encyclopedia for info on "evolution", they are looking for this precise article - biological evolution. English speakers almost never use this word for other purposes. Our naming scheme should be based on real-world useage whenever possible. RK 14:42, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

RK is not exactly right. In the US it is true that when people use the word "evolution" without any context at all, they almost certainly mean Darwin's theory and theories that build on Darwin. BUT there are many cases where people use the word "evolution" by itself to mean social or cultural evolution, as well as other meanings. Also, popularly even when people mean Darwin's theory of evolution, they really mean a Lamarkian form of evolution -- they really don't understand Darwin (take this as a sign of the lack of good science education in the USA). I am inclined to agree with RK, however, that this should not be a disambiguation page -- although I think it is worth more discussion. Even if it is not a disambiguation page, though, it should have links to related articles. And before creating a new article we should see how the material AR suggested could fit into existing pages. Slrubenstein

All the discussion here about all the different ways to name all the articles that deal with evolution support the need for evolution pointing to a good disambiguation page. This artilce could be renamed something like Evolution (science) --Samuel Wantman 20:20, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You could put some content on the Religion page. It says there that by at least one definition Evolution/Science is a belief system that influences behavior and is hence a Religion. Wouldn't that call for a Evolution (religion) article? --DanielCD 18:38, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That is already covered in atheism and agnosticism, and under the "social effect" subpage. Though it is true to say that those who are opposed to evolutionary biology because of religious reasons will label "evolutionism" with all sorts of muck. Using self-identification, I and others like me prefer atheist (and others agnosticism), though I really prefer secular humanist as that emphasises the humanism part rather than the religious part. I "believe" in scientific philosophy because it is logical, and thus I "believe" in evolution. However, scientific atheism is not a religion because it is not supernatural. I think that should be adequately covered in those articles, so (say) the importance of evolution to (say) the history of atheism should be covered there Dunc_Harris|☺ 20:31, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Suggested fixes for someone with edit privileges to make to the outline of Evolution

Someone with edit privileges in this age of censorship should please fix the outline to Evolution. The current outline is

• History of evolutionary thought
  • Present status
  • History evolutionary thought
  • De Chardin's & Huxley's theories

If you see no flaw in the above outline, then please ignore the following suggestions. Otherwise, I suggest the following:

• .
  • History evolutionary thought ....... (the subcategory) should be changed to "History of evolutionary thought"

and

• History of evolutionary thought ....... (the primary heading) should be changed to some phrase generic enough logically to include the three subcategories, one of which is "History of evolutionary thought"

and

accordingly you may want to change the subcategory "Present status" to some phrase that would be a logical subcategory of whatever you propose for the primary heading. ---Rednblu 23:59, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, that was my revision. I can see the edit was made in good faith and it does need a tidy/rewrite. I took one look at User:Rednblu and panicked a bit. I have since been told off by both User:Lexor and User:Mike_Jones. Just remember the NPOV. :) Dunc_Harris|☺ 17:19, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You are a good man. All is well. ---Rednblu 19:42, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

---

I archived this whole section after User:Ignignot took care of the suggested edit. ---Rednblu 22:37, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---