Talk:Yugoslavia

Contents
1 Talk prior to Yugoslav articles revamp
2 Regarding disambiguation notices
3 DA page
4 Restructure again?
5 No edit wars, please
6 Stop the over-disambiguation!
7 current article
8 Vladko's .bg edits

Talk prior to Yugoslav articles revamp

Does anyone know when the name is supposed to change. I notice that the government website (http://www.gov.yu) still calls it the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. --Zundark, Friday, April 5, 2002

The parliaments of both republics still have to vote on it (see vague link (http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2002/04/03042002085657.asp)). I have no idea when it's supposed to take effect once (if) approved, though. ...... Ah, I found the text of the agreement (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1874000/1874523.stm); if ratified, Serbia and Montenegro are required to "effect changes in their constitutions in accordance with the Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro or adopt new constitutions by no later than the end of 2002." How that affects precicely when the name is supposed to change, isn't terribly clear. Brion VIBBER
At what point should we move the related pages to [[whatever of Serbia and Montenegro]]? --KQ 20:54 Sep 6, 2002 (UCT)
There already is a page Serbia and Montenegro! - John 16:35 Feb 4, 2003

There are several dates that people take as the end of SFRJ. One is Jun 25, 1991, when Slovenia secedeed, one is October 9, 1991 when the moratorium on Slovenian and Croatian secession was ended, one is April 28, 1992, (IIRC) when the Federal republic of Yugoslavia was formed and thus no government used the name "SFRJ" any more. But anyway, I think this is discussed elsewhere and doesn't really need mentioning here. Zocky 21:52 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

First of all, IIRC, FRY will cease to exist when the new parliament is constituted, so the end-date might be wrong again.

But, this page looks all wrong now. Yugoslavia is not or will not be a country anymore, so this page shouldn't be about FRY. It should be about the kingdom SFRY and FRY. Should they all get their own pages with a summary here? Or should they all be merged?

Oh, and the page Serbia and Montenegro/History is of course not a history of "Serbia and Montenegro" but rather a history of Yugoslavia. Zocky 20:49 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)

Oh wait... Serbia and Montenegro/History is a redirect. It's ok for now then.

What a mess. One country was established in 1918 to be cancelled in 2003. I think we do not need three independent articles. Slovenia, Croatia and other former Yugoslav republics were as much Yugoslavia as Serbia and Montenegro were. But since the country with the name Yugoslavia will stop existing, we can't predict in full what will be in the future. There is 30 days delay from the beginning of 2003 February to decide wheather Yugoslavia will definitely stop to exist. And there will also be a 3 years period for two states, Serbia and Montenegro, to decide if they will remain in the formation of a state with the name Serbia and Montenegro. As Serbian nationalist Vojislav Sešelj from the SRS recently said that Yugoslavia was the biggest mistake for Serbia in its history. But from the period 1918-2003 there was plenty of time to learn something from. But anyway regardless Sešelj we may say that Yugoslavia from 1945 to 1991 was well formed as a state, if we look at it as a modern country. But the national differences among almost brotherlike nations have prevailed. There are many similar examples in the world (to think on some e.g. India / Pakistan; Ethiopia / Eritrea; Russia / Belarus ....). It is already a time to abandon such lucrative mediaeval coalitions of any kind. What hurts me, as a former Yugoslav citizen, is for instance that the country was kicked out of the N-AM, as it was so apparently stable and an example of stability and peaceableness; and because of so much ethnic cleansing and bunch of semi-civil wars in it. And, not lastly, let Stevie Wonder sing Bob Dylan's: the answer, my friend, is ... I can't believe in the end that these are just games of the great powers. Every nation got a right to decide its own destiny... in Bob Marley's words. --XJamRastafire 17:18 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Here's what I think should be done for the articles on "Yugoslavia":

There should be an article on the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (the state that lasted from 1918-1929) and it's leaders and history, etc. This current Yugolavia article should be about the Kingdom that lasted from 1929-1945 . The Postwar state that existed from 1945-1992 should be in an article titled Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or SFRY. The state that existed from 1992-2003 that was formed after the breakaway of Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia, and FYROM should be placed in article titled Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or FRY. The Union that came into force in 2003 should be on a page devoted to Serbia and Montenegro.

As it stands now, this article needs serious work!

-hoshie

I agree that there should be, if not separate articles, then distinct sections of this article, though I think that article on History of Yugoslavia should cover all Yugoslavias as their histories are interconected. I'll deal with this, once :) Nikola 07:27 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Definitely separate articles, but I propose this structure:
Any thoughts?
Zocky 17:35 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

This article is currently not just about the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. It mentions Tito, etc. If the intention is just to talk about the Federal republic, then it should start from 1992. I think it should give an overview of all the Yugoslavias and link to them. --Jiang 20:22, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Umm, yes. As I told you on my talk page, FRY and SCG are different names for one same state and everything to be said on FRY should be said in SCG article. Basically, this article should be moved there with removing things that you noticed (they should be moved to History of Yugoslavia if not already there). That is completely different question then format of disambiguation though. BTW, I still think that History of Yugoslavia should cover all three. Nikola 22:09, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dont call the SCG FRY. That's just confusing. This, and History of Yugoslavia, should be on all entities that were ever Yugoslavia.

One might like it or not, but SCG is FRY. This should be on all entities that were ever called Yugoslavia. Nikola 04:22, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
No, when SCG existed, there was no FRY. It may be the same entity, but it should be called for what it was.
Just now noticed this. Shouldn't it be called for what it is? Nikola 07:03, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Articles about fighting the british during the American Revolution link to Kingdom of Great Britain, not the United Kingdom. Articles on British imperialism in the 19th century link to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
Of course not, but SCG was called FRY. There is more difference between Kingdom of Great Britain and United Kingdom then just name change. Not so in this case. Of course, article about Warsaw pact should link to SFRY. But it would be ridiculous for article on Kosovo War to link to FRY (unless FRY isn't just a redirect to SCG). Nikola 06:27, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
We might as well treat this as a defunct entity like the Soviet Union. --Jiang 04:54, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Soviet Union a defunct entity? Nikola 06:27, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yugoslavia is term casually used for any of following political entities:

  • First one was a kingdom, formed in 1918 under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes; in 1929 it changed name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia and it existed under that name until it was dismantled in 1941 by Nazi Germany.
  • Second one was a socialist state, formed in 1945 under name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia; in 1946 it changed name to Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia and in 1963 to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, under which it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia separated and...
  • Third one was formed, under name Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; in 2003 it changed name to Serbia and Montenegro.

I think "first one, second one, third one" is a bit awkward and confusing. We should skip the bullet point listing altogether and instead have this revealed in the introduction:

Then how about "First Yugoslavia, Second Yugoslavia, Third Yugoslavia"? You probably haven't read on my Talk page, but the terms are established in English language: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22first+yugoslavia%22

Yugoslavia existed as a country in southeastern Europe from November 29, 1943 to February 4, 2003. Yugoslavia formed in 1918 as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, renamed the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929 and lasted until it was invaded by Italy (is this right?) in 1941. After the World War II it became a communist state, under the names Democratic Federal Yugoslavia from 1945 to 1946, Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia from 1946 to 1963, and Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 1963 to 1992....

This claims that there is one country that was named Yugoslavia, but there never was. Yugoslavia is informal name for various countries. There is much more continuity between SCG and FRY then between FRY and SFRY or kingdom and republic. Further, constitution of 2003 is just a legalisation of factual state of affairs between Serbia and Montenegro that existed before 2003. And lastly, what is going to be different in articles on FRY and SCG? :))
Kingdom of Yugoslavia was invaded by Italy, Germany, Hungary and Bulgaria, I'm not sure for Albania.
Please reword as you see fit. --Jiang

This article should be on all entities named Yugoslavia. Serbia and Montenegro is under a new constitution and is not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. This need to be made clear. It was not a simple name change.

And how is this made clear? It's not even mentioned in the article. And Serbia and Montenegro W A S N A M E D Yugoslavia. Not now, but it was. It was not a simple name change, it was a constitutional change as well (I think that some of former name changes were also constitutional changes), perhaps that should be mentioned. But then, we are not going to have articles on Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia prior to constitution of 1974, Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia between constitutions of 1974 and 1990, Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia after constitution of 1990, aren't we?
I said it should be clear. Not that it's already clear.--Jiang
Oh. sorry. I thought you are suggesting a definitive suggestion.

I'm thinking that the individual names of the various political entities can be made into a History of Yugoslavia series. --Jiang 22:43, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC) --Jiang 22:43, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)~

Aren't they already? But that doesn't solve our problem. Nikola 05:33, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Let's look at how other encylopedias deal with this. This is from the Encarta encylopedia:

Yugoslavia, former country in southeastern Europe, on the Balkan Peninsula. The country existed from 1918 to 1941, when German-led Axis forces invaded and dismembered it during World War II. It was reestablished in 1945, but in 1991 political and ethnic conflicts led to its second disintegration. In the first period, Yugoslavia was a kingdom. In the second period, it was a federation consisting of six republics: Bosnia and Herzegovina (often referred to simply as Bosnia), Croatia, Macedonia (see Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), Montenegro, Serbia, and Slovenia. In addition, two autonomous provinces existed within the republic of Serbia: Vojvodina and Kosovo. Belgrade was the federal capital.

Yugoslavia, meaning “land of the South Slavs,” was created as a constitutional monarchy at the end of World War I (1914-1918). It was known as the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes until 1929, when it was renamed Yugoslavia. The kingdom was destroyed and divided by Axis invasion and occupation in 1941. At the end of World War II (1939-1945), Yugoslavia was recreated as a federal republic by the Partisans, a Communist-led, anti-Axis resistance movement. Under Josip Broz Tito, founder and leader of the Partisans, Yugoslavia emerged as a faithful copy of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), with a dictatorial central government and a state-controlled economy. Tito broke with the USSR in 1948, and he decentralized the Yugoslav government and gradually eased repression. Economically, the government experimented with looser controls under the labels of workers’ self-management and market socialism. Yugoslavia was unique among Communist countries in its relatively open and free society and its international role as a leader of nonaligned nations during the Cold War.

Following Tito’s death in 1980, ten years of economic crisis and growing political and ethnic conflicts led to the federation’s disintegration in 1991 and 1992. The breakup was bloody, resulting in civil wars in two successor states, Croatia and Bosnia. Serbia’s leadership, which tried to preserve the federation and then to extend the republic’s boundaries to create a Greater Serbia, was involved in both civil wars. Together with Montenegro, Serbia formed what its leaders claimed to be the successor state to Yugoslavia, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now called Serbia and Montenegro).

--Jiang 05:52, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well, it is totally wrong about separation wars, but it acknowledges that SCG is FRY.

Yugoslavia is term casually used for any of following political entities:

  • First Yugoslavia was a kingdom, formed in 1918 under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes; in 1929 it changed name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia and it existed under that name until it was invaded in 1941 by Axis powers.
  • Second Yugoslavia was a socialist state, formed in 1945 under name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia; in 1946 it changed name to Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia and in 1963 to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, under which it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia separated and...
  • Third Yugoslavia was formed, a federation named Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; in 2003 the state remade its internal structure into a loose commonwealth and changed name to Serbia and Montenegro.
Or, if you prefer to look at them as one country (but other people will object, I'm telling you):

Yugoslavia is term casually used for a country that was formed in 1918, as a kingdom, under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, in 1929 changed name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia and existed under that name until it was invaded in 1941 by Axis powers, after which, after Second World War was over, in 1945 a socialist state was established under name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, which in 1946 changed name to Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia and in 1963 to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, under which name it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina separated and a federation named Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was formed, which in 2003 remade its internal structure into a loose commonwealth and changed name to Serbia and Montenegro.

Did I mention before that I love long sentences? :)
And to make one thing clear: is FRY successor to SFRY is a subject of debate. But there is no doubt that the term 'Yugoslavia' is used for FRY, and the above sentence makes no assumptions on wheter it is a successor or not. Nikola 07:38, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

To avoid refering them to one country and having a long sentence, how's:

Yugoslavia is term casually used for three separate political entities. The first was a kingdom formed in 1918 under name Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, whose name changed name to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929 and existed under that name until it was invaded in 1941 by Axis powers. The second was a Communist state established immediately after World War II in 1945 under the name Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, which in 1946 changed its name to the Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia and again in 1963 to the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, under which it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Slovenia, Croatia, Republic of Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina separated. As a result a federation named Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was formed between the remaining republics of Serbia and Montenegro, which in 2003 remade its internal structure into a loose commonwealth and changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro.

Fine with me. I just linked kingdom. Nikola 19:29, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Please explain what you mean by "don't change this to Republic of Macedonia as "Republic of" isn't used for other republics". What's wrong with "Republic of" and what right about "Former Yugoslav Republic of"? Let's go by its constitutional name, as agreed upon in Talk:Republic of Macedonia. "Republic of" is necessary to disambiguate it from the greater Macedonia region. --Jiang 07:49, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well, imagine that it was the only republic that broke away. The sentence would be: "...it existed until 1992 when its constituent republic Republic of Macedonia broke away." A bit silly, no? :) (At least here) it is not a problem but a matter of style: it is already said that these are republics of former Yugoslavia so it is already disambiguated. OTOH, if formal name is used for one of them, it should be used for all of them, and these are all "Republic of" (except BiH i think): "...it existed until 1992 when its constituent republics Republic of Slovenia, Republic of Croatia, Republic of Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina separated. Now that IS silly :)) If you still think that it should go as you said, OK. Nikola 19:29, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
If you think it's redundant, how's [[Republic of Macedonia|Macdeonia]]. FYROM is a bad link which just redirects to Republic of Macedonia. However, with this, we risk being POV and offending the Greeks. I assume it is okay in this situation for the reasons you have mentioned--the sentence already states that it is a "constituent republic." We put in "Republic of" when it is necessary to disambiguate. You should see that People's Republic of China, Republic of China, and Republic of Ireland do not usually appear on wiki in their shortened form, when referring to the modern political entity, for clarity and NPOV sake. --Jiang 19:57, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I just typed FYROM because it's shorter to type. I don't think it matters whether something links to a redirect or to main page if link text is same.
Watch Kingdom of Yugoslavia for explanation on Vardarska Banovina :) Nikola 20:10, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

FYROM is not Macedonia. This is Serb Province Vardarska Banovina(Province) See map: http://forum.smartnet.ba/Forum5/HTML/000389-1.html Makedon,Thessaloniki 15.08.2003

Now what should we do with the articles for the individual Yugoslav states (e.g. Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Democratic Federal Yugoslavia)? Give them all separate articles, have them all redirect here, or give each political entity one article? The problem with giving each political entity an article is that only one of those titles can be adopted. When we look at defunct entities, we look at the entire entity as a whole, not at a single point in time (i.e., the present). Therefore, it is inappropriate to endorse only one of those titles. What should happen here?

I'd give each one separate article. I'll write something about their internal structures for start, I think that you'll see that even that couldn't be easily joined. As for title, we could adopt the last title, that's what we would do for an existing country. Other titles would then redirect to it.
You mean for each political entity only? Why not a new article for each name? We shouldnt treat defunct entities as existing countries. --Jiang 02:48, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Yes. If there is separate article for each name, how would that articles differ from each other? See Kingdom of Yugoslavia for what I have in mind. You'r right we shouldn't treat them wholly as existing countries but we could just for naming. Nikola 10:31, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Okay, looks good to me. It seems like the only way around it. Just have the other kingdom name redirect there. --Jiang 16:47, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I've started both kingdom and socialist, now it only remains to be seen what to do with rest of Yugoslavia. Nikola 18:03, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Maps showing the various Yugoslavias would be helpful. What is the purpose of this page? Why not merge with history of yugoslavia?

--Jiang 00:20, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have no idea how to get PD maps. And the purpose, well... a glorified disambiguation page? :) Also, what should be done with Transportation in Yugoslavia and other pages? Should they be deleted, redirected to SCG, redirected to Yugoslavia? Nikola 02:39, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
They currently redirect to those of Serbia and Montenegro (I moved them there.) Let's just keep them that way for now. Maybe not everyone is aware of the name change. --Jiang 02:48, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think this should be merged with History of Yugoslavia or we can put in a full blown country template incorporating this: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/yutoc.html. But since there were different Yugoslavias, that probably belongs at Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. --Jiang 21:56, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Regarding disambiguation notices

I deleted the following. Does it really belong on this page?

This is NOT a disambiguation page; that is, one that just points to other pages that might otherwise have the same name. But anyway, some links that point here should rather point to the appropriate specific page, so if you followed such a link here, you might want to go back and fix that link. RickK 00:27, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I dont think it does. --Jiang

The above text is cumbersome. Romanm now added the generic disambig notice, but it doesn't really fit either. Even after we eliminate all the ambiguous links, there will still remain a substantial amount of links to this page because there are things that refer to both (or even all three). --Shallot 16:03, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Do you propose that we should remove the disambig notice? IMHO this article is still more or less disambiguation: all three Yugoslavia's had different territory and different political system.
No, but it should have a non-generic phrasing, because the generic one implies that /no/ pages should link to a page that includes it. --Shallot
The only confusion I can think of is links to this page during the Second World War - should we treat links to the Yugoslav territory in context of Kingdom of Yugoslavia or in the context of post-war SFRY? --Romanm 20:24, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Neither, really, that sounds like another link that can be left pointing to this page. --Shallot

DA page

This shouldn't really be a disambiguation page. When we refer to the "Former Yugoslavia", we're not just referring the Socialist Federal Republic but the Federal People's Republic. History is not a snapshot. Let's move History of Yugoslavia here. I don't see why it belongs separately. --Jiang 06:09, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Jiang, what exactly do you mean? Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia are already on the same page!
If you mean that Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (ie. Serbia and Montenegro) should be on the same page as Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Kingdom of Yugoslavia then I strongly dissagree. The new formed FRY is not the same country and not the only legal successor of it; as the Badinter Commission pointed out the common country dissolved in 1992. Of course the parts of it may still bear the name "Yugoslavia" if they choose so, but it is not the same country. --Romanm 06:58, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
FRY is the only successor of SFRY, which has not dissolved but whose constituent republics have separated one by one. The fact that there is the opposite opinion is why this page was created in the first place - otherwise it would be just a redirect to Serbia and Montenegro. Nikola 07:44, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of the pre/post-1991 issues, the page Yugoslavia could still have a disambiguation character because of the kingdom, and because most references are actually to the phrase "former Yugoslavia". --Shallot 10:21, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Then what do we mean by "Former Yugoslavia"? What if the situation's ambiguous? Do you object to moving History of Yugoslavia to this page? --Jiang 07:53, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Though, logically, each of the three could be referred to as "Former Yugoslavia", AFAIK the term is used almost exclusively for the SFRY. Nikola 07:04, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The meaning of "former Yugoslavia" can be ambiguous, yes. However, I don't think that there's much point in replacing this summary page with the long history page because that would deter many readers from easily understanding that there was more than a single one of them. Maybe now that we've got sections in the history page the summary page can provide better links into the history page. --Shallot 10:21, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If it's made clear in the first sentence that they were separate entities and we bold their names in the introduction, I don't see the confusion. This is not a "summary page". It is a disambiguation page with a gazillion links pointing to it. That's a bad idea, especially when we have ambiguous cases. The history page is really a summary (it fits on one page). Moving the content over here would make this an overview. --Jiang 10:46, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't see a reason for not having a summary of history on this page. I dont think that entire History of Yugoslavia should be here, but a summary of it, saying that the main article is History of Yugoslavia could be acceptable. Of course, we can't have the infobox, geography, politics or other sections usual for countries, but there could be history. But it shouldn't replace the introductory paragraph. Nikola 07:04, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The content of History of Yugoslavia fits on one page, so I don't see why not. It won't replace the current introduction - only tacked below it. We'll have more detailed history articles at History of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, History of Communist Yugoslavia, etc. so "History of Yugoslavia" itself will be the summary. We don't need two summaries... --Jiang 08:02, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
One page??? It's eight screens long! (On my screen.) On all country pages I've seen, summary of history usally fits on one screen. There are a lot of cases with two summaries: Russia#History is a summary of History of Russia which itself is a summary of 11 articles, some of which are also summaries. Nikola 09:37, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's well under 32kB. The point of having a summary of the history is to leave room for other subjects (economy, politics, etc.). Russia#History/History of Russia is redunant, but that way because it is impossible to cross-post content. [History of Russia] was the original detailed version but got longer and had to be split.
What else (other than the history) do you envision to fit on this page? --Jiang 12:05, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't. I envision only the summary of history. Nikola 17:52, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Then what? --Jiang 01:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand this. Nikola 07:26, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, misread your last comment. If we just have the history, then there's no point in having two summaries. We no longer need room for other subjects. All we care is that everything is under 32kB, which it will be. --Jiang 08:08, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, my bottom line(s): this page is just a bit more then a disambiguation page. I don't think it should become much longer. It is common practice to have a one-paragraph summary of history on country articles and I don't see why this article would be different just because it doesn't have geography or economy as well. History of Yugoslavia is linked as such from several articles and people expect to read about history of Yugoslavia when they get there, not this introductory paragraph. In the same way, people who come to this page expect to see what a country it is, should click on appropriate exit and in general don't care about history enough to read it all. So far there are no two summaries and probably there won't be for many moons; but even if there are more summaries, I don't see what is wrong with that. Bottom line of the bottom line: As far as I am concerned, this article could have no history at all, or it could have a short summary, both are fine with me. I wouldn't revert if someone copy-pastes history here but I wouldn't like it.
By the way, what others think about this? Nikola 06:26, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[History of Yugoslavia] speaks of Yugoslavia in its entirety. This article should be a general historical overview of the Yugoslavia in its entirety. Many of the links to [History of Yugoslavia] refer to a specific era. We should treat that as an disambiguation and change links there to be more specific. If history of Yugoslavia redirected here, wouldnt people get the same deal? People coming here should be forced into reading history. They cannot ignore history or avoid it because Yugoslavia is a defunct state so everything about it is inherently historical. I don't know what else there is to say about Yugoslavia. --Jiang 23:33, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Nikola, the opinion you stated above is not generally accepted in the world. United Nations says this about the issue (see [1] (http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html)):

The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945 and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the establishment and subsequent admission as new members of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

This was also the conclusion of the Badinter Commission. --Romanm 07:59, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The UN was a hostile entity towards FRY generally, and conclusions of Badinter Commision were likewise influenced by political reasons. Nikola 08:05, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Restructure again?

I know I was the one who came up with the idea of separating the articles, but I think that dissambiguing links is going to far. First of all, the Kingdom and SFRY were not two distinct political entities. The kingdom was superceded by DFY, FPRY and then SFRY, but it was still the same country. Compare it to the French 1st and 2nd kingdom, 1st and 2nd Empire, not to mention the 1st-5th republic. Should they all have articles? Sure. Should every link to France be disambiguated among them? Definitely not.

A problem with this idea is that SFRY was superceded by FRY. And even if you argue that FRY is not the continuation of SFRY, you can't argue that FRY wasn't called "Yugoslavia", just as SFRY was. Nikola
Zocky, I have to disagree with you. Kingdom of Yugoslavia was a unitarian dynastic monarchy while Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was a fully federal state with national republics who already had elements of independent countries. Compare Russian Empire and Soviet Union, for example. And I have to agree with Nikola that FRY can also be called Yugoslavia if it choose so (not that this means that it is a continuation of SFRY, though - likewise use of name "Macedonia" doesn't mean that Republic of Macedonia is seen as a continuation of Alexander the Great's Macedon, for example). --Romanm 22:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
AOL. --Shallot

Also, I'm starting to think that grouping Kingdom of SHS and Kingdom of Yugoslavia under Kingdom of Yugoslavia and FDY, FPRY and SFRY under Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is arbitrary and misleading (mea culpa). OTOH, we need a grouping of history articles separate from the name changes, because changes in 1929, 1946 and 1963 didn't really make much difference.

They didn't, but neither of them has its own article. But the changes in name, population, teritorry, political system and whatnot in 1941-5 made a lot of difference, hence two articles. Nikola
AOL. --Shallot
Again I agree with Nikola and Shallot at this point. Pre-war Yugoslavia (choose period) was not the same as the post-war Yugoslavia. --Romanm 22:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hmm... The claim that SFRY was not the same country as the Kingdom is very questionable. It was much different, but it was formally the same country, as accepted by WWII allies, UN, SFRY and now the successor states. Also, the flag, the capital, the money were kept, the territory was largely unchanged. Partizans' official position was defending Yugoslavia, not replacing it.
The political system of SFRY and the Kingdom was so different that it can hardly be said that it was the same country, although there were some elements that could support this point of view - Western sponsored Tito-Šubašić Agreement in 1944 and post-war referendum on political system comes to mind. But the same could be said for the Soviet Union and Tsar Russia - they shared almost the same territory, but were entirely different from a political system POV. IMHO the SFRY was a legal successor of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, but not the same country. Do we have some professional historians here, by any chance? --Romanm 23:42, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Successor or not, it was different enough to warrant own article, just as Soviet Union and Russia do. Nikola 06:08, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
OTOH, there's no doubt that FRY is the same country as Serbia and Montenegro. It should definitely be linked from here, maybe even dissambiged, but it should really be treated as an alternative name for Serbia and Montenegro. Zocky 22:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

So what to do? First of all, most links should go to Yugoslavia. Here's also my updated proposal for structuring of articles. Alternative suggestions for names of articles welcome. Some kind of consensus would be nice before anybody moves anything.

Most of it (except history) is unapplicable because of teritorrial difference between FRY and SFRY. Nikola 17:58, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You might find it surprising, but in the majority of cases (plurality at least) the links can actually be disambiguated into the kingdom, the socialist state, and the post-socialist state, they do not have to go to the general Yugoslavia page. Romanm and myself have been at this for months and it's generally workable, it just requires man-hours. I suggest you try it, it's an informative exercise... :) --Shallot 18:19, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's not a question of whether it's possible, but of whether it's a good thing. In most areas other than economy, political system and military, the distinction is unnecessary. Zocky 22:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

--Zocky

I think we should make the defunct entity titles part of the history series like Democratic Kampuchea. Maybe something like Communist Yugoslavia will prevent an arbitary cut. We could redirect the official names to the history series.

For this article, let's not duplicate Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. It tends to come out a disaster like Czechoslovakia because country templates are designed as a snapshot of the present, not a holistic view of the past. Think Prussia, not Soviet Union. The boxes don't need to be made. --Jiang 14:26, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

For a state which existed for 73 years out of last 86, i'd say Soviet Union is a better analogy. There's a lot to write. Zocky 14:55, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

My point is that Soviet Union is poor encyclopedia article. The history section is bloated and most of the others are too thin. If we have to deal with successor governments, dissolutions, etc. then for the box, listing the area will be a disaster. Don't apply the country template here. It's not designed for defunct entities. We're focused on the history. --Jiang 15:44, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hm, if this is just about the country, boxes, there's already one for SFRY and it seems OK to me. I see no reason why one shouldn't be made for the kingdom. Althougn, my main point is the location of articles and where to link. Zocky 15:59, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we can make boxes for the individual political entities but not the main Yugoslavia article. But even for those, we should ignore momentary data. --Jiang 01:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No edit wars, please

I noticed that Nikola reverted my edit, but I did not revert it again (nor planed, until we talk it out), although I dissagree with his version. My change was:

... four of its six constituent republics ... had seceded. changed to ... gained independence and the country dissolved.
AFAIK, everyone agrees that the republics seceded. Not everyone agrees that the country dissolved. The exact way in which the republics seceded, whether or not successive secessions (notice that my wording doesn't say successively, although it's also undisputed, I think it would smell POV) have dissolved the country and who says what about that should be best explained in History of Yugoslavia, and perhaps in History of Serbia and Montenegro. Other articles should use neutral wording rather than have entire explanation repeated everywhere. Nikola 05:51, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I also noticed that GeneralPatton reverted to my version with some harsh words for Nikola. I would like to ask everyone to stay away from personal attacks, remain calm and not start another edit war. We can talk the wording over here to reach some NPOV, but please can we do it like civilised persons this time? --Romanm 22:34, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary to rephrase the seceding part or repeat that it dissolved. It remained in place until the secession of four out of six constituent republics -- by which time its constitution that was talking about the structure of six republics was inherently void. --Shallot 22:38, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Stop the over-disambiguation!

This is going way to far. When you talk about Kosovo and say "the rest of former Yugoslavia", you don't mean the kingdom or the republic, you mean both. Same goes for:

Disambiguating these links is confusing and factually incorrect. The first and the second Yugoslavia had tha same name, virtually same territory, continual trasfer of government. All the international treaties of the first Yugoslavia remained in force (if they weren't explicitly cancelled). It can be argued that the first and the second Yugoslavia were separate states, but there is no basis for considering them to be separate countries.

The article on Yugoslavia should be the main article for, well, Yugoslavia, and the rest should be part of the History of Yugoslavia series:

The only dissambiguation that is needed is [[Serbia and Montenegro|Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] --Zocky

User:DO'Neil seems to have thought that the 1941-1945 period should also be marked as KoY, which isn't quite correct. I'm going through the edits now and correcting them with proper explanations. --Shallot 10:46, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I should also point out that DO'Neil did in fact properly disambiguate several of them. Some talked about "Republic" or were in a clear context of interbellum or so. Those are fine, I'll just correct the properly ambiguous ones. --Shallot 10:48, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This is no longer a disambiguation page and should not be. Please keep the ambiguous references linked here and revert any misleading disambiguations. --Jiang 18:25, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Jiang changed link in the ICTY on "former Yugoslavia" to point here. In this case that's wrong, because that meaning is SFRY and SFRY only. --Joy [shallot] 11:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

current article

It looks pretty good this way (with history in here), I think. I've added "main article" links for the two sections, and those articles should continue to be linked in relevant contexts, but whatever is linked here should be good too. --Joy [shallot] 10:55, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Vladko's .bg edits

User:Vladko, kindly rid your edits of glaring POV issues before reinstating them. --Joy [shallot] 12:27, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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