Talk:Sesame Street

Template:Peerreview Template:Oldpeerreview

I think this is a great page.

One suggestion: in addition to an article on Mr. Hooper, there should be some mention of the 1982 episode in which his death was discussed. I think many would consider the episode a landmark in children's television. Someone who has recently conducted research on the show could present more information about this and other well-known episodes more easily than I. --Rethunk

I agree. It would be a good project for someone who has the knowledge. -- Zoe

Count me in. I'm a Sesame Street fanatic, and I'd love to do an expansion. Are there any other topics that you know of that I should defientely remember? How extensive should I go-- I could provide a paragraph of information even on one shot characters? Would a complete episode guide be appropriate? Zanimum

I think a complete episode guide would be excessive. I'm sure there are such things on the Net already. A list of major characters and catch phrases and important episodes would probably be enough. What does everybody else think? -- Zoe

There are guides from Season 32 on (it's soon the start of Season 34). But the beauty of Wikipedia's format is that all the other 3000 episodes before those seasons could have a chance of being cataloged by the public. Anyone that happens to have an old VHS or Beta that they taped an episode on can post a brief summary of what happened, unlike what they could do with other sites, which a closed door really...Zanimum

I agree that an episode guide could be useful, and if someone wants to write an article on every episode, I suppose I wouldn't stop them... At least some characters (Big Bird, Elmo and maybe the Cookie Monster) probably deserve separate articles. Something like that shouldn't be forced, though, I think -- write about the characters here and when the length and organization becomes burdensome, start moving some to their own articles. Tokerboy

With most of the main characters, it wouldn't be that forced persay, with 4000 episodes to choose highlights from, and with the underlying academic focus each character brings to the show, you could easily write thesises on them. Zanimum

There aren't actually 4000 episodes. I believe they start a new 100 for each season. -- General Wesc

Grover holds up a number card at the start of every episode, and they're at like 3656 now, something like that. But I was just rounding it all off just to make it sound good. They've actually stopped the 100 episode schedule in 1999 or so, now there's only 65 new episodes per season. Still impressive-- most kids shows only ever produce 65, that they show infinitely for years upon years.

I think an episode guide in a separate article would be nice, with important episodes and specials perhaps highlighted on the main article. Also, we should definately list the two movies, Follow That Bird and Elmo's Adventure in Grouchland. However, if we did do episode highlights, what would it include? Hooper's death, Gabby's birth, Miles' adoption (also last episode with David), XMas, etc. are obvious, but beyond those it's very subjective. For me, the hurricane, the fire, Montana, and Hooper's Store collapsing are prime candidates but others would consider some of those pointless. Where do we draw the line? What constitutes an "important" episode? -- General Wesc

Yeah. Like the last traditional format Sesame Street episode (3919) wasn't important plot wise, but in how it signaled an end of an era.

Plot description from sesamebeat.com: "Maria's mom is visiting from Puerto Rico. Everyone loves Maria's mom. Every time Maria tries to spend some time alone with her mom, her mom gets pulled into some big Sesame Street activity --a Birdketeer meeting, a conga line, etc. Maria gets visibly upset. Eventually her mom figures it out and they go off together."

Should we have a complete guest list? Zanimum

I think a complete guest list would be worth trying, but it would certainly need a separate article. -- General Wesc

One more thing, they've done major changes at least three times (adding around the corner with Furry Arms, etc., removing around the corner, and the most recent abomination.) I'd like to see these mentioned, but I don't know if these are the only three major changes or if there were others earlier. Anyone older than me? :-) -- General Wesc

Chances are that I'm younger, but no, that's it. Zanimum

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A complete Sesame Street guide could be too much. It would be a lot of work, and though I'd tip my hat and buy a drink for the person who could pull it off.

Episodes which have been discussed in public forums would qualify for inclusion, I think. Child psychologists may well have some say in what effect Sesame Street has had on childhood development. The good folks at the Children's Television Workshop (http://www.ctw.org/) might even have some suggestions about what they felt were important episodes.

I've found a few links that suggest what the producers intended for the show:

• Sesame Street researcher discusses Elmo (http://www.elmosplayground.com/elmosworld.htm)
• Web page on future of Sesame Street (http://www.current.org/ch/ch0121sesame.html)

from which: "Sesame Street, begun in 1968 as an experiment in preparing underprivileged children for school. . ."

A few tight paragraphs exploring the impact of Sesame Street would suffice, I think. Digging up some external links for further study would also help. --Rethunk

Complete is literally impossible, without someone visiting the Sesame Workshop (formerly Children's Television Workshop) and watching the first, undocumented 3000 hours. However-- lots of skits run continuously for years, and multiple viewing generations see them. Should those skits be listed, organized by character(s) and/or in cases without Muppets, educational themes or decade of first showing? Zanimum

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I've posted a chunk on Snuffy and child molesting, etc. so if anyone can proof this, the paragraph needs some work, definetly. Tommorrow I'll post more topics. Zanimum

This is a most interesting tale, and clearly relevant to the topic. It definitely belongs in the article, particularly if it can be placed in with other noteworthy plots or topics the show has tackled over the years. However, I do have some criticisms and intend to do some editing.

Firstly, do you have a reference for this stuff, so that we can check the factual accuracy of the account?

Secondly, your presentation, whilst colourful, is clearly not NPOV, and is prone to unattributed speculation. Unattribute speculation on such an obscure topic is generally not encyclopedic. --Robert Merkel

Well, it's in Sesame Street Unpaved, the Bible of the show to most fans. It's an authorized book with snippets from all points throughout the show's history. Check your local library, because you couldn't find it in a book store anymore, it's out of print. Thanks for the rewrite BTW. Zanimum

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I know this puppet theft incident sounds terribly farfetched, especially Snuffy's plea, but this was in The Toronto Sunday Sun's week in history column just a few days ago. I have never heard about this before, but this is when I tuned out Sesame Street for a while, as "I'm a big kid now." Now that I'm 16, not just 10, I love the show even more than before, and don't let a news article slip me by. Anyway, the Sun chain of paper, though sometimes silly and short sighted in their coverage don't make things up, so they must have had this story in their paper back 7 years ago. Zanimum

Found an old site with a reference. http://dailybeacon.utk.edu/issues/v71/n45/ups.45v.html

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How does one edit this table of contents? It doesn't show up in the function area, or history. - user:zanimum

It's automatically generated from section headings (==Primary Characters==, ===Primary Puppet Characters===, and so on). See Wikipedia:Section for more information. —Paul A 01:20, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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The Bert parody site linked in the article is a mirror of a site the author wished to discontinue. I removed the link. -- Logotu (see http://www.fractalcow.com/bert/ )

So? It's of relative historical importance. -- user:Zanimum

Maybe in an article on the Bert is Evil phenomenon rather thatn the Sesame Street article? {Shrug} - Logotu

Or you could just revert it - Logotu

I've given more prominence to the article Bert is Evil, and taken away the actual mirror site's link. -- user:Zanimum

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Kermit the Frog is listed on this page. Did he really play in Sesame Street? Guaka 23:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oops, already found the answer on Kermit the Frog :) Guaka 23:38, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Missing image
Sesamest2.jpg
Sesame Street cast, in Season 35

Keeping this off the page for now, barely fair use, where did it come from, yada, yada, yada.

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Contents

1 Featured article nomination archive 1.1 Sesame Street 1.2 Failed FAC nomination 2 Public domain images 3 Links to the locale versions of "Sesame Street" entry 4 To include somehow, but this is off fact 5 Guest stars 6 Old peer review

Featured article nomination archive

Sesame Street

• My pet, I think it's pretty good. -- user:zanimum 02:00, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. Mostly good article. Two points. One: Get rid of the word 'edutainment' in the opening paragraph - it's ugly, links into a stub and screams 'this article is for Americans only', which it shouldn't be even though it's about a US programme. (It's also duplicating what's in 'History of the show', it doesn't seem so bad there.) Two: The dead-end linked characters (particularly the secondary ones) could do with some pruning (or writing up if they actually are interesting). If those two (small) things one thing are is changed, I'll alter my vote to 'support'. Jongarrettuk 18:35, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • How does the quality of a linked to article effect the quality of a candidate? I'll get on to the characters, but as a comparison, Belgium has redlinks to its people within the main article, yet it's featured. -- user:zanimum
    • It just looks like too long a list. I admit it's a bit niggly. To be honest, I'd probably change to support if only my first concern was addressed. Lists not perfect, but look ok enough to me now for me to withdraw this part of my objection. Jongarrettuk 00:41, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Fully support, if you shift the "History of the Show" to towards the top of the article. Great article! Incidently, I like the "edutainment" word in the lead section. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:06, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Support now, my objections having been met. Filiocht 12:33, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC) Object for now. The lead section is a bit short and there are no references. Also too many lists, I think the minor puppers and humans migh be left out at no great loss. FYI, the US version was on both British and Irish TV for years. Filiocht 08:18, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Request to post this on Wikipedia:Peer review first. Some issues: 1) No references. 2) Images should have captions (and sources for some images are a bit vague). If possible, the screen captures should be replaced with better images. 3) The list of characters should be dropped to List of Sesame Street characters, and replaced by a brief discussion of all the characters now listed under "Primary Puppet Characters". 4) See also lists and random facts seem to be inserted at various places in the articles. These need to be grouped together, unless such a see also belongs to a certain section (such as the list of characters). 4) The broadcast history and Regional variations of the show sections both tell the same story, but of different countries. 5) There needs to be a history section. Jim Henson is mentioned only twice, briefly. 6) A section such as "controversy" seems a bit out of place. It seems to imply there have been several controversies, but only one is discussed. If there have been more: discuss them, if not: include it in the history section if deemed relevant enough. 7) Is there info on viewing numbers? Are they growing/stable/declining after 35 years? And internationally? Jeronimo 09:57, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Object at the moment. The section with links to character lists is messy and there's a lot more to be said about merchandising. I'm happy to support this otherwise. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 08:31, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Would be good to make the photo captions full sentences (cf. House style), however. Mpolo 09:25, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

• NOTES: References have been added. Nielsen Ratings have been added. Characters have been abbreviated and clustered. Broadcast history adjusted. Non-screen capture images added. History moved. However, edutainment is the hot term for this sort of thing, and has been since the mid-1990s, at least. Ugly word of not, it's educational entertainment. -- user:zanimum
  • Love your work :-) - Ta bu shi da yu 08:22, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Still object to 'edutainment' as it's too American and so screams 'this article is for Americans only', whereas featured articles should be for a world audience Jongarrettuk 16:08, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Are you say the term is not used in countries other than America, or are you saying the edutainment page only has American examples? Within America, Thomson Learning and Prentice Hall textbooks, and Princeton U all use the term. Hong Kong Baptist University (Department of Computer Science) site, within the Hong Kong Education City site uses the term. [resources.ed.gov.hk/com-lit/it01/glossary_link.htm] The British edition of Macworld [www.macworldextra.co.uk/showme_ browse_results.lasso?caturn=20117] and the British Hutchinson Encyclopedia [1] (http://www.focusmm.co.uk/store/productpages/productinfo/ffb023.html) (used at an ISP site named Tiscali [www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/ dictionaries/computers/data/m0045464.html]). Actually, the first result for edutainment in an international Google search comes up with the relatively irrelevant Surf Stallion Image Gallery, from Australia.

Within the realm of television, a search for "edutainment+TV": #2 is from Singapore, #7 from Israel, #10 from Finland. #9, although the site is hosted in the US, is a UNICEF conference in South Africa. -- user:zanimum

• I wasn't going to comment more, but zanimum has requested I do, so I shall. When I first read the article, the word 'edutainment' in the lead sentence stood out to me as unusual - it is a recently coined portmanteau word, and whilst no doubt used in the TV industry and TV guides in the UK and in other countries, it is hardly common - it also screams out 'Americanism' (and by this I never meant to imply that the word is only used in America-n I know full well it is used in the UK, though not often :) ). Put simply, the phrasing you use in the first paragraph distracted me, nearly putting me off reading the remainder. Which is a shame as the rest of the article is very good. Because having that word so early on put me off the article, I oppose it becoming a featured article. May I propose a different construction along the lines of: 'Sesame Street is a television program which led the way for many of the modern shows for young children that combine education with entertainment.' Jongarrettuk 18:08, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Hey food", Cookie Monster, Kevin Clash, Jerry Nelson "I could have counted all night" Count, Countess

Failed FAC nomination

I'm relisting this semi-self nomination, which was delisted somewhat prematurely in its first run through. I find the article to be concise and NPOV, and it itself tries to explain the show's importance, rather than specific segments and characters, which while important, are segregated into their own article.

The older nomination is listed at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/Index/October 2004#Sesame Street, and the appropriate talk page can be visited for further discussion, post nomination period.

Notes on changes since first listing: I made moves and merges of various sections, added references and captions, eliminated lesser human characters, and discussed ratings. The article, despite claims, is as international as it needs to be, as it leads to existing articles on many element of international versions of the show. I even eliminated the term edutainment, much to my personal dismay, to reflect a less term-saavy world. Sesame Street was simultaneously listed on Peer Review, and still is, albeit no suggestions.

-- user:zanimum

• Support., but can you expand the merchandising section a bit? Zerbey 02:53, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Mpolo 18:30, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
• I'm again objecting to this article after re-reading it since the last nomination. Some of my original objections remain. 1) Many of the characters from the show are very famous, and need more text than just a link. E.g.: Bert & Ernie, Grover, Oscar, Elmo, etc. In addition, a more "typical" sketches could be discussed than the few in Overview. This article is about a tv show, so it should tell what the show shows. 2) The international section may point to several articles about the "regional" versions (an incorrect term, since Canada is not a region of the US), but it is inconsistent (some have years listed, some channels, others don't) and at least needs some more accompanying text than this. You might tell that some of the sketches are copied with voice-overs, while others have completely new characters and are original. Also, there are apparently 23 versions, why only list these? Because these are the longest-running? If so, note this. 3) The trivia section has only one sentence. Merge this section or add more content. Several other sections are also short and shot4) The lead section mentions Jim Henson, and his muppets/puppets play a big role in Sesame Street. Yet he is not at all mentioned in the article. 5) The history section should at least mention the first airing of the show, nor its founders (such as Joan Ganz Cooney). 6) The controversy section is not particularly interesting for the topic in general, and it would seem only interesting as a part of the History of Sesame Street article. I suppose it was added in the time when this topic was in the news, but it's not big enough to be part of the article. Jeronimo 06:55, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. Untidy and less readable than it might be. Sorry. jengod 21:08, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. As well as some of the objections above, this article's first image doesn't seem quite right for an article on Sesame Street. A group shot of the various characters from the show would be much more effective, even if it was just a screen grab. -- [[User:Bobdoe|BobDoe]] 23:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Note: I'm working on some of the above objections; the above complaint however, I don't know what to do about. On talk:Sesame Street, there's a current cast photo. However, I'd rather not use press shots like this, as I question the extent to which fair use is okay. Comments on this? -- user:zanimum
• Support Dysprosia 06:07, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support jguk 18:12, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support: my original objections were met. Filiocht 07:35, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

Public domain images

There is a Public Domain picture of the Arabic Sesame Street here: http://www.usaid.gov/stories/egypt/ss_egypt1.html

And there's a Public Domain picture of Elmo testifying before Congress here: http://www.house.gov/cunningham/Press_Releases/elmo_duke_23april02.htm

Are either of these worth putting in the article? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 20:23, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Links to the locale versions of "Sesame Street" entry

I realized that there is the corresponding entry for Sesame Street in the Spanish wikipedia, but the link in category "Regional variations of the show" didn't point to the correct page. I've changed the link "Barrio Sésamo" to ":es:Barrio Sésamo|Barrio Sésamo", to select the correct entry. I would like to know if other localized versions have the same problem. Thanks!

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To include somehow, but this is off fact

as they are apparently adult human males portrayed sharing a bed. The programme-makers vehemently deny this, however, insisting that the characters are asexual puppets [2] (http://www.planetout.com/pno/entertainment/news/splash.html?sernum=154). The pair's relationship bears similiarity with that of Laurel and Hardy, who were also occasionally shown sleeping together; this became such a comedy staple as to be adopted by Morecambe and Wise in the 1970s, all of whom were similarly asexual.

Guest stars

I would like to see more about the guest stars that have appeared, such as Stevie Wonder, James Taylor, etc ... (can't think of anymore right now...). Bruce 18:15, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi Bruce... check out List of celebrity guest stars on Sesame Street. -- user:zanimum

Old peer review

Sesame Street

A pet article of mine, I submitted as a FAC in September, and it was knocked down, submitted it for peer review in October, no response. Anyone have any suggestions? -- user:zanimum 27 March 2005.

I'm a fan of Sesame Street, and even more of the Muppet Show, so your peer review request enticed me to have a good look. I see that many of the recommendations of the previous FAC and PR have been carried out, such as references and captions to pictures, and notably a tone-down on the Americanism. That is good.

• What I personally noted is that it doesn't mention a lot of the other-language Sesame Street shows. They are (often stubs) on separate pages. Could more material of those pages (or even the whole pages) be included in this world-wide focussed Sesame Street wikipage?
  • I was planning to eventually create that as "Sesame Street internationally", linked to in the article as "Locally produced adaptations". -- user:zanimum
• Three important pieces of information (History of Sesame Street, List of Sesame Street characters, and another) are only touched upon in a short section, and referred to. Would it be good to include more material from those pages, so to put more flesh on those meagre sections?
  • I think the amount of Sesame Street characters on the main Sesame page is fine, any more would be cluttersome. However, I do see your point about more history on the main page. -- user:zanimum
• There are quite a lot of red links to sort out. Wim van Dorst 20:26, 2005 Mar 27 (UTC)
  • I would eliminate some of the links in the pictures; that deals with red links. Also, maybe all of the characters should have a page, which would further get rid of the empty links. User:Bratsche/sig 21:35, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)