Talk:Pogrom

Old talk

I don't think pogrom in Russian means only violence against Jews. There are now pogroms of other natinalities, for example 'Aziks'. And it's meaning is absolutely clear: 'pogrom' = 'to, chto gromjat'. Perhaps at some period, 100 years ago, pogroms were primarily or almost exclusively against Jews, and they were of special violence. And by Ochrana you mean Ochranka --Ilya 21:04, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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The following piece cut from the article.

• 19-22 Aug 1991 in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn, New York. The pogrom began on August 19 when a Hasidic Jewish motorist accidentally struck and killed Gavin Cato, a seven-year-old African American boy. In revenge, an angry mob of black youths began assaulting Jews in the neighborhood, the population of which was about evenly divided between blacks and mostly Hasidic Jews; in one such attack, Yankel Rosenbaum, a 29-year-old rabbinical student visiting from Australia, was stabbed to death, and an undetermined number of Jews were seriously injured as the assaults continued for four consecutive nights (a non-Jewish motorist who had apparently gotten lost in the neighborhood, Anthony Graziosi, was also fatally attacked, presumably because he had a full beard and was wearing dark clothing and was thus mistaken for a Hasidic Jew).

This piece belongs to race riot article. Pogrom is violence by majority against minority, not simply one nationals against other nationals.

By the way, the topic of relations between African Americans and Jews can fill a whole new article. You might want to start one. Mikkalai 18:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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I disagree, and here's why: It's only a "race riot" if both sides are equally the aggressors; in this situation that was definitely NOT the case because the Hasidic Jews didn't go marauding through the neighborhood beating up any blacks they encountered. The whole thing was totally one-sided - blacks attacking Jews merely because they were Jews. Therefore what happened in Crown Heights was indeed a pogrom - it was widely reported as such in the New York City newspapers, and during his successful, second campaign for mayor in 1993 Rudolph Giuliani made constant references to "the Crown Heights pogrom." TOttenville8 03:33, 15 Feb 2004 (EST)

I wasn't there, you may be right. Nevertheless such a big piece does not belong here IMO. I'd suggest to start an article Anti-Semitism in the USA (see Anti-Semitism) for examples of such articles, put the paragraph there as a section and refer it from here. OK, I'll do it myself. Mikkalai 11:00, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Humus Sapiens reworded my poor text:

There is another, less known consequence of pogroms. During their two-thousand-year history of wandering the only defence of Jews was to fly. The second Kishinev pogrom have seen an organization of Jewish self-defence, which effectively stopped the pogromists in certain areas.

into

The organization of Jewish self-defence have stopped the pogromists in certain areas during the second Kishinev pogrom.

...with a caustic remak that Jews cannot fly :-) Sorry, my bad. I intended to write "defence of Jews was flight", but it was late night... The edit lost an idea that it was the FIRST notable resistance of Jews in modern times. And some even speculate that this self-defence is the roots of the initial strentgh of Israel. I'd like to ask to restore this somehow, with better English. If it was ot the first resistance, it would be good to mention the earlier ones. Mikkalai 08:01, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Не журись Mikkalai :), it was intended to be humorous, not caustic. Hope you haven't found that offensive. I also frequently do my edits at night and I appreciate when someone improves them. Here is why I removed the phrase:

• The details of the "wandering" (BTW, an unfortunate word when applied to the Jews) are IMHO irrelevant to the subj.
• True, after Bar Kokhba's failure in 135, the Jews renounced violence to achieve political gains. But not self-defense. Here's the result of search for "self defense": http://www.davidsconsultants.com/jewishhistory/history.php?search=self+defense&dosearch.x=6&dosearch.y=2

I've added 1664 Lvov to History of anti-Semitism, thanks. Humus sapiens 02:12, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Use of the words "denotes" and "denote" in consecutive sentences denotes someone in need of a thesaurus.

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Black Death mentions some pogroms. Should we mention them here ? (even though they occurred long before the term "pogrom" was imported into English).

The article is about the term and its history of usage, not about violence against Jews. So, you don't need to list all cases throughout the history, starting from Pharaoh times. IMO the existing link History of anti-Semitism pretty much covers it. Mikkalai 02:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Why Kishinev and Odessa pogroms were not pogroms.

A pogrom (from Russian: "??????" (meaning "wreaking of havoc") is a massive violent attack on a MINORITY people.

Odessa: According to 1897 census (http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_rel_97.php?reg=73)

total population of Odessa - 403815 Russian Orthodox - 225869 (56%) Jews - 138935 (34%) Roman Catholics - 24219 (6%) Lutherans - 8777 (2%)

Members of the Russian Orhodox Church are divided in several ethnical groups (Greeks, Bessarabians, Ukrainians and other), so they are not a majority. Thus, Jews were the largest ethnic group in Odessa. A pogrom is attack against a minority people. So Odessa "Pogroms" were not Pogroms

Kishinev Total population of cities in Bessarabian Guberniya - 293332 Russian Orhodox - 162177 (55%) Jews - 109655 (37%) Roman Catholics - 7244 (5%)

Members of the Russian Orhodox Church are divided in several ethnic groups. Again "Kishinev pogrom" doesn't fit into the definition of pogrom.

I am removing passages about Odessa and Kishinev Pogroms --DonaldDuck 02:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And I am restoring it on the grounds that the Jews constituted a minority in the Russian Empire. You arbitrary decision to pick a town - why not a street or a block? - is baffling (and I assume good faith). These two are classic examples of pogroms. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pogrom is a local, city-scale event, rioters don't move from one town to another, so decision to pick a town is correct. We have two options - 1) removing passages about Kishinev and Odessa pogroms.

2) changing definition of pogrom --DonaldDuck 02:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wow, Donaldduck, that is a pretty crazy assertion, leaving aside the debunking that Humus gave you above. The Kishinev Pogrom was called a pogrom by everyone from Tolstoy to the New York Times in 1903. It is the example of a pogrom, it, and the attacks of the 1880s, defined the term. Only later was it used to generally mean an attack on minorities, the term originally referred to violent riots against the Jews in Eastern Europe. You are getting your casuality wrong. Why on earth would you want to remove these examples? Cite sources that support you. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sources - 1897 census. It shows that jews were not a minority but a largest ethnic group. (http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_rel_97.php?reg=73). So we must either remove passages about Kishinev and Odessa "pogroms" or change definition of pogrom from "attack on the minority" to something like "race riots" or "ethnical conflicts".--DonaldDuck

DonaldDuck, this doesn't say anything about the Kishinev Pogrom not being called a pogrom, it is merely a population listing, the same one you gave before. Even assuming that you are right, and that Jews represented a plurality (they were never a majority) among the ethnic groups, this does not change anything about the Kishinev Pogrom being a pogrom. Your argument is spurious:

• If you want to split hairs (which I guess you do) the Jews were a minority, they did not represent 50%+
• Your casuality is confused, the word "pogrom" was coined as a result of the pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, and elsewhere - from there the definition spread
• The article says "minority people," the Jews were definitely the minority people in Imperial Russia, arguing otherwise is like saying that because the rioters entered a Jewish neighborhood, it wasn't a pogrom. The term minority, when applied to population, is correct in this case -- see minority. You are just wrong here.
• EVERYONE calls Kishinev a pogrom, you have no evidence of the contrary. Provide this or stop doing original research.
• Outside of everything else, your edit was to eliminate almost all of the information about pogroms in Russia, all of it sourced and well-researched -- including pogroms like Bialystock and Siedlce. That is not a constructive way to operate, especially if your concern is the accuracy of the word "minority" in the description.

--Goodoldpolonius2 03:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kishinev Pogrom is being called a pogrom, but it does not fit into the definition of pogrom. My proposition is to change the definition of pogrom. (a) and (c) I showed that there were no majority, and Jews represented a plurality, so they are clearly not "minority people" (b) Yes, the word was coined as a result of the pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, but i have shown statistical data proving that there is widespread misconception of Odessa and Kishinev Pogroms as "violent attacks against the minority". So we should change either definition of pogroms or remove passages about Odessa and Kishinev

"... edit was to eliminate almost all of the information about pogroms in Russia, all of it sourced and well-researched -- including pogroms like Bialystock and Siedlce. That is not a constructive way to operate, especially if your concern is the accuracy of the word "minority" in the description." Bialystock and Siedlce are not in Russia but in Poland. The subsection of the article is called Pogroms in Russia

Kishinev Pogrom is being called a pogrom, but it does not fit into the definition of pogrom. My proposition is to change the definition of pogrom. (a) and (c) I showed that there were no majority, and Jews represented a plurality, so they are clearly not "minority people" (b) Yes, the word was coined as a result of the pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, but i have shown statistical data proving that there is widespread misconception of Odessa and Kishinev Pogroms as "violent attacks against the minority". So we should change either definition of pogroms or remove passages about Odessa and Kishinev (unsigned by DonaldDuck)

Your proposal may have been to change the definition, but your action was to delete most of the article, so I am not particularly impressed by your approach to this manufactured problem. Jews were a minority in the Russian Empire, which is how minorities are usually defined (again, see minority) -- its like arguing that African Americans aren't a minority because they make up a majority in parts of Harlem. Besides, the first sentence says "A pogrom (from Russian: "погром" (meaning "wreaking of havoc") is a massive violent attack on a minority people with simultaneous destruction of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). The term has historically been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews, but has been applied to similar incidents against other minority groups." This is clear about the historical use with regards to Jews and mentions "minority people", as opposed to your bizarre "minority in the city and/or neighborhood." Besides, you have yet to provide a single source showing support for your views, beyond your own original research. Bialystock and Siedlce were part of Russia during the pogroms. I think this discussion is over unless you can somehow explain the hundreds of links to the Kishinev Pogrom, etc. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"your action was to delete most of the article" - yes, I have deleted small part of the article. Until the definition of porgom is not corrected, this part is misleading people. "its like arguing that African Americans aren't a minority because they make up a majority in parts of Harlem." Well, African Americans constitute a majority in certain parts of Harlem, aren't they? "Bialystock and Siedlce were part of Russia during the pogroms." - it will be correct to write "Polish parts of Russian Empire" or "Polish-populated parts of Russian Empire". "bizarre "minority in the city and/or neighborhood."" Pogroms were local, city-scale events, data for city population is just OK. Besides this I did not write about "neighborhood". Don't misreport my arguments.--DonaldDuck 04:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

DonaldDuck, you did not delete a small part of the article, you deleted almost the entire section about Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pogrom&diff=15209961&oldid=15209588), talking about every pogrom from 1881 on and quoting multiple sources including the New York Times by claiming it was misleading because Jews may not have been a minority in Odessa or Kishinev. This action alone, plus your continual series of new objections to everything in the article about Russia, lead me to believe that you are not working in good faith. Obviously pogroms were not simply local events, the fact that there were 166 pogroms in Russia from 1881-1883, and hundreds more in the 1900s, all against the Jewish minority in Russia and many with tacit or overt support from the Russian government, should be more than enough evidence. Either provide sources supporting your view explicitly -- saying Kishinev or Odessa were not pogroms -- or stop with your original research. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

BTW, there were plenty of cases when rioters moved from one town to another, or state police joining them. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 03:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You must support this by citing orders given to police. Police never does anything without orders. (unsigned by DonaldDuck)

Your arguments were rebuffed above. Good bye. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 03:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Minority

I removed the word. It creped here relatively recently. The word "minority" is accidental and irrelevant to the definition. For example, pogroms of Caucasians in Moscow are pogroms of people "on a business trip", so to say. It would strange to classify them as minority. Also, about vporgoms of chinese merchants in Siberia it is difficult to describe chinese as "minority": they are global majority. mikka (t) 04:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think we may be having some translation issues. Minority group in common usage means an ethnic group that is not the majority in a nation or state, not world majority or city majority (Chinese are also not a global majority, with about 1/6 of the world population). It is not limited to simple mathematical minorities, the definition by Schaefer (1993) from Dayton Law School (http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/minor01.htm) states, in part, that a minority group is:

• A subordinate group whose members have significantly less control or power over their lives than members of a dominant or majority group
• Not limited to mathematical minority: example women, Blacks in South Africa, Blacks in Mississippi and South Carolina in the 1920's
• Interchangeable with subordinate group

As far as I know, no pogrom has ever been targeted against the majority ethnic group in a country, but we can leave that out if it is causing so much confusion, despite it being correct- and I appreciate your reasonable approach, mikkalai. The important part is that it is not an attack on any group of people, but people of a particular ethnic group -- historically Jews, but recently Chinese, Caucasians, etc. That is why pogroms are not the same things as riots. I did some minor fixes to the definition in line with this. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Again: that they are minority is coincidental. While I admit that I added the chinese for fun only, the example with caucasians does demonstrate my point: they were targeted not because they are a kind of hated "minority"; they are targeted as merchants perceived as unjustly profiteering on Russians. As for pogroms against majority, then, if you think hard, you will definitely find a couple in Africa (if you want to stick to the formal definition of "minority" in a country). mikka (t) 05:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. The contradiction is basically resolved.--DonaldDuck 04:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Note Pogroms at the markets in Moscow have been directed not against temporary merchans but mostly against the ethnically Caucassian Moscow residents who live in Moscow for years (Please see russian language link at caucasophobia)

Sure, against Mikael Tariverdiev, Nona Gaprindashvili, Grigory Chkhartishvili and many others. This is bullshit. Russians always respected respectable people and did not feel any indiscriminate dark envy towards them. They loved Georgian music, appreciated georgian musical skills, georgian film, elaborate Georgian toast speeches. Even georgians perceived rich was a matter of respect. Russian jokes about Georgians are not of hateful nature.

Why don't Caucasian elders put some blame onto their sons? Unfortunately, according to the russian proverb, "shit always floats on the surface", and not the best of immigrants are in the Russian eye now. In my times, Armenian unofficial construction brigades (shabashniki) were highly welcome in Russian/Belarussian countryside, for their fast and quality work. I don't think other smart Armenians, who sell "burnt" "Armenian coignac" must expect respect. mikka (t) 19:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)