Talk:Mormonism

Contents

1 Redirect to Mormon 2 Mormonism vs Latter Day Saint movement 3 Sects of Mormonism 4 Mormon Israelites 5 Question of whether Mormonism is a branch of Christianity 6 Listing made explicit 7 Moved Mormonism articles in error 8 October 8 edit 9 I propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject 10 Storm Rider 11 Theology 12 Caffeine 13 Question 14 Infalliblity 15 Fringe Mormon Beliefs 16 Incommunicable attributes

Redirect to Mormon

Not meaning to step on toes here... If this page need return to a redirect to Mormon, so be it -- I notice the same has been done for Catholic/Catholicism and Protestant/Protestantism. I felt there was an important difference, but perhaps Wiki policy/practice dictates that the above information should be merged in under "Mormon" and this page reverted. LennyG

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Mormonism vs Latter Day Saint movement

There are so many articles, now, with the word "Mormonism" in their title (see, e.g., Restoration (Mormonism), Priesthood (Mormonism), etc.), that we have to have an actual Mormonism article! This usage would be in conformance with the widespread usage of the word "Mormonism" in such publications as the oft-cited Encyclopedia of Mormonism. It would also put this article in conformance with Wikipedia standards, which prefer such titles as Catholicism, Protestantism, and Methodism to "Catholic", "Protestant", and "Methodist".COGDEN 20:50, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This article is nearly verbatim identical to Latter Day Saint movement. Is that article needed at all? Is there a real difference between the two terms? If there is, should we not keep things clean and reduce the redundancy? Who realy uses that term? Hawstom 20:59, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Hawstom's comments. There is no need for Latter Day Saint movement...all of the material on that article should be merged with this article on Mormonism. B 22:42, Feb 4, 2004 (UTC)

Do we have to go through Votes For Deletion? I've never done that before. I suggest a Redirection from that page to Mormonism. Or a short explanation of the term itself along with a pointer that what it really means is Mormonism Hawstom 02:05, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

See my comments on Talk:Latter Day Saint movement. There is a subtle but (I think) important difference between Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint movement. One is a thing that "happened" and the other is a thing that "is". Mormonism isn't properly a movement, but a set of beliefs, practices, and cultures independent of time and place. It's like the difference between "feminism" and the "feminist movement". COGDEN 04:16, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

As a Latter-day Saint myself, this is my perspective: Mormonism should be used to describe the theology and culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints only. On the other hand, the Latter Day Saint movement, as the [User:COGDEN|above Wikipedian]] pointed out, is more of historical value. In being so, the Latter Day Saint movement encapsulates all churches that accept the teachings of Joseph Smith and/or take the Book of Mormon as scripture. To illustrate, members of the Community of Christ absolutely hate being called "Mormons," but accept the term Latter Day Saint (note punctuation), even though they accept the Book of Mormon as scripture. By this, we can see that Mormonism is essentially limited to the practices of one church, whereas the Latter Day Saint movement is the common history of several churches. One word of caution, though: the Community of Christ seems to be a bit selective about it's history. For example, they use an older edition of the Doctrine and Covenants and question the fact that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy (sections pertaining to polygamy, regard for race in priesthood, etc. were added later in JS's life).Bccomm 17:56, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Clarification: Mormonism is one Brighamite church and its descendant churches. Tom 16:27, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

True enough, but it really is a matter of personal opinion. From the Writer's Style Guide (http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,4043-1---15-168,00.html), it seems that the CoJCoLDS would like to reserve the term Mormonsim for themselves (though I do wish they would indicate some reasons). Would FLDS, for example, classify themselves as a sect of Mormonism - being Brighamite - or just part of the more broad Latter Day Saint movement? When was the term "Mormonism" coined? Was it within the church? Obviously, from D&C 135, we see that it was used from early on. Bccomm 18:50, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

True. We need to clarify these issues. I am afraid we may not be accurately presenting all the points of views. I know of no FLDS editors or CofC editors, though I have good contacts who could provide guidance for both. One example of the need to clarify is the disputed between Mormonism and Christianity. Which branches are parties to this conflict? All in the same way? Tom 20:17, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sects of Mormonism

Umm, Is this the right page to list all the sub-sects of Mormonism? This gets confusing to me, and the entropy never ends. If it is, why should we give Strangites honorable mention, but not FLDS. Isn't FLDS at 20,000 bigger? Hawstom 02:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Mormon Israelites

I removed the Mormon Israelites. I am going to try to find a better home for it. Excellent contribution. Tom (hawstom) 21:51, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Question of whether Mormonism is a branch of Christianity

I changed "Christian" to "Non-Mormon" to make it more inclusive. ChessPlayer 22:35, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Chess, I think that it is only Christians who gag at classifying Mormonism as a branch of Christianity. Non-Christians pretty much agree M is a branch of C. I think saying some C reject M as a C branch gives the more accurate understanding. Would you consider reverting? Tom (hawstom) 22:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Isn't it more accurate to say "Non-Mormons" rather than "Christians"? Saying the former is inclusive of any objecters in the world. Saying specifically Christians means that for some reason, people who are Christians, (but not Mormon) have a reason to object that non-Christians do not have. This makes the classification a religious dogma issue. I don't think that classification should be dependent on the classifiers religion. If you do, could you add some material to the article explaining why Christians object to the classification while no non-Christians object?

Let me state the last sentence in a concrete way. Imagine a Buddhist or other person from a religion far removed from Christianity, who was classifying religions, and was deciding where to put Mormonism, as a Christian sub-class like say Baptists or Catholics, or outside the broad category of Christian groups, which would mean its something so "Not-Christian" that it belongs in the group which has Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, and now along those, Mormonism. Would the Buddhist without a doubt classify it as part of Christianity, where as some Christians, and only some Christians, would say that no, its no more Christian than is Islam, which also worships a supreme being, but is an entirely seperate religion? ChessPlayer 07:17, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think you are right on the trail. As you hint, it is 1) a religious dogma issue, and 2) the non-Christian apparently without a doubt classifies Mormonism as a part of Christianity. Do you think this is appropriately expressed in the article? Tom (hawstom) 05:14, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree with you. My Pentecostal grandmother thought Mormons were pagans. But then, she thought Catholics were pagans. RickK 05:21, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Rick. Evangelicals (and or? including Pentecostals) do think Catholics and Mormons are pagans. Only sheer tradition and size keeps them from labelling Catholicism a cult. But, Rick, do you agree that Non-Christians (secularists, Buddhists, etc.) universally classify Mormonism as Christianity? Tom (hawstom) 05:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I would think so, though I have no evidence to support the opinion. RickK 05:34, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't see why a person's religion determines whether they see M as a form of C. Consider an atheist who has studied the history of mormonism -- they could very well hold either opinion. Can we say "Mormons, and some non-Mormons, consider the religion to be a form or offshoot of Christianity"? Mbp 07:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we can shorten the mention into a very brief reference to the Mormonism and Christianity article. Could the following work? "From its beginnings, Mormonism has had an uneasy relationship with traditional Christianity, as discussed in Mormonism and Christianity." Tom 02:38, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think that would be a good solution, especially as there is so much good content in that article. Perhaps I'd expand it to ".. a complex and uneasy relationship...". Mbp 04:08, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As an analogy, do atheists classify Christianity as a form of Judaism? I'm not sure what my opinion is on this, but that's a point we have to consider. 204.185.119.112 16:36, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think no. Christianity is a descendant of Judaism, grew out of Judaism, and is now a major world religion separate from Judaism. Mormonism may someday be similarly viewed. But not in 2004. Tom 22:23, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Listing made explicit

I pulled the list page out of the "see also" and made it explicit in the article that this listing exists. The listing is the main point of this page, or should be. ChessPlayer 20:51, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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copied from User_talk:Gilgamesh 02:02, 5 July 2004 (UTC):

Moved Mormonism articles in error

Moving Mormonism and Mormonism and Judaism were mistakes and you need to change them back. Next time please propose and discuss making such drastic changes in the talk pages before doing so. For example, please review Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mormonism) and the Church's media guide here (http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,3899-1---15-168,00.html) stating: "The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine [i.e. "theology"], culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." —B|Talk 17:59, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I've moved the page back pending a discussion. However, I can't possibly agree that the term "Mormonism" is acceptable — I find it very derrogatory and I won't accept it. It may be easy for Latter-day Saints who live in the Wasatch Front who don't deal with as much persecution. But it's still used pejoratively out there, even as a slur. We do not politely call the Roma "Gypsies", nor the Sami "Lapps", nor Catholics "Papies", nor Muslims "Saracens" nor "Mohammedans". And we do not correctly call Latter-day Saints "Mormons", because it's very belittling, especially for those who had to grow up from childhood dealing with the hurtful words, name-calling and inquisitions. No. It's vulgar, it's hurtful, it's ignorant, and it has no place in civilized (let alone academic) discussion. As far as I am concerned, "Mormon" is a body of water and a prophet. - Gilgamesh 01:55, 5 July 2004 (UTC)

Not to forget "Moonies" either. —B|Talk 13:11, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry your POV differs from the Church's on this point, but you are not the only LDS to share this POV, I respect your feelings on this point and it is well worth discussing. After all it is not the Church's or your POV which controls here; NPOV is king. The Church and its members have generally been ambiguous toward the term "Mormon" and "Mormonism" often embracing it and avoiding it. As to is pejorativeness, it is a matter of context. In its use here in wikipedia, it does not come across in a derogatory way. The conclusion that should be reached is that "Mormon" and "Mormonism" are acceptable (depending on the context) but that "Latter-day Saint" is preferrable. I hope that other LDS and non-LDS wikipedians who have participated in the past will put in their 2 cents here. If it's decided that Mormonism should be struck, then this has far-reaching effect on the Naming convention for Mormonism on which much work has been done. I just don't think that is going to happen though. —B|Talk 13:11, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

My thoughts here run roughly parallel to B's. I agree that it is good to run across your POV, Gilgamesh. To tell the truth it is mind expanding for me, because I had not in recent memory come across such a strong reaction to the term mormonism. To honor NPOV, I guess it would be appropriate to note that there are locales or contexts in which Mormonism is a vulgar slur. Maybe Gilgamesh could find a high-quality way to add that understanding somewhere in the Wikipedia. And as B says, a name change isn't totally out of the question--only unlikely and immensely inconvenient. As for myself, I routinely refer to myself as a Mormon; probably due to my love for the Book of Mormon. Tom 17:34, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You have to realize. It's not that I don't love the Book of Mormon. I do. And I admire people like Hugh Nibley for standing up for it. But the name "Mormon" has been badly abused in my living memory. I currently live in the Wasatch Front where such abuse if far less common, but I was born and grew up elsewhere. Mostly I just remember scorn and discrimination from children and adults. Often I didn't understand it at first, but then my parents would explain it to me, and gradually they didn't have to explain anything anymore, and I could see more and more of the hurtfulness. It felt like every month that I heard that one of my peers in primary class had been told that one of their non-LDS friends' parents forbade them to play with each other anymore because "Mormons" disgusted them. When I moved to North America at 13, things became quieter, and I almost never heard "Mormon" anymore but instead neutral or endearing uses of "LDS", "Latter-day Saint", "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", etc. Then came Internet access in 1996. Since I'm not of Wasatch Front culture and always have had trouble assimilating (it can be very hard for a non-Utah-LDS), I found myself associating with the kinds of friends I had before; more diverse, more different ranging opinions. Much of the time it was all fine, and people had no trouble with my affiliation that I was never about to hide. But often I would be subject to hateful slurs and "Godmakers"-style attacks from seemingly ordinary people, and it brought back all the same contempt as before. Pioneer-stock LDS from the Wasatch Front in my observation tend to be far more insular, and often don't associate with people not like them; not out of any bad feelings necessarily, but more out of subconscious xenophobia and traditional distrust of outsiders. I am an outsider, though of the same religious conviction, though I've always been able to reach out better to people whoever they are, since they are all my neighbors. From all I've seen, my conclusion is: Hate, prejudice and slurs are all out there, for anyone to receive, as part of the nature of the world, but it's far too easy for insular people to rarely receive them when they are too hesitant to try. I don't regret my openness, since I try to live in the world (though not of the world), since ultimately it's far better than neither living in the world nor of the world. But my skin is only so thick, and it's not fair for a culturally insular person to completely disregard all the abuse others have to take by association. - Gilgamesh 18:12, 5 July 2004 (UTC)

I'm not surprised that some people find the word Mormonism offensive. However, that cannot be a reason to rename the Mormonism page or to replace all references to Mormonism with something else. Even if the word Mormonism is taken by some as pejorative, that doesn't change the fact that it's standard. Some people (you'll find them on AM radio or Fox News) use the words feminism or liberal pejoratively, but that doesn't make those words un-politically correct, because they are standard and widely accepted. The word Mormonism has been around forever, and there really isn't a word or phrase in common use that captures the precise meaning of the word Mormonism. The phrase Latter Day Saint theology doesn't count, because Mormonism is more than mere theology, and there is great theological disagreement among different Latter Day Saint sects. COGDEN 19:32, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Unlike "liberals" and "feminists", I admit that the name "Mormons" was coined by vulgar and pejorative people, not by "Mormons" themselves. I admit that some probably delight in jabbing the sensitive by refusing to say "LDS". But in all candor, I am afraid that "LDS" actually sounds more "cultish" in today's society than "Mormon". Quakers, Amish, Mormons, etc. all sound more like quaint old religions to the average secular Joe. I think that because "Mormons" and "Mormonism" are derived from the Book of Mormon, and they thus call attention to an importantly unique part of us, we should do whatever it takes to adjust our own thinking and hijack the terms for our own use. That, I think, is part of why the Mormon editors (long before I ever got involved) had little heartburn with the terms. We should be able to separate the issues of our own strangeness and our real conflicts with society from the issue of which name we agree to be called. We have real issues. Parents refuse to let their kids play with ours. But all of that is much, much deeper than the simple choice of a name. My solution when I see a non-Mormon vacillating over terms is to simply show him by example that "Mormon" is not offensive. He can't offend me with it if I don't let him. I am a Mormon, yes I am. Now, about polygamy and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, sigh. Tom 23:51, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hoping to contribute more light than heat, a quote: "The nickname Mormon is associated with the Church and its members because we accept as scripture a book titled the Book of Mormon.....Members of the Church do not resent being referred to as Mormons, nor does the Church resent being referred to as the Mormon church. As we have said, however, it is not the correct name of the Church. Its correct name is, as we have already explained, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. Marion G. Romney, 2nd Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, General Conference address, April 1, 1979 Dan 20:09 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, Dan, I think that about does it. I will remove the NPOV dispute after adding a note that to some the term Mormonism is very offensive. Tom 02:36, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'm removing it from the NPOV notice from naming conventions as well. Like many Saints, my position mirrors Dallin H. Oaks': only the term "Mormon Church" bothers me. As an adjective, I embrace the term. Cool Hand Luke

October 8 edit

I liked your October 8 expansion, COGDEN, it made is clear for me that the CJCLDS church that I had been fully equating with Mormonism is actually just a subset sect of it. Could we slso throw in a few references to some example entities or sects other than the CJCLDS church that are also within Mormonism? --Gary D 19:40, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

"While Mormonism as a whole covers a broad range of beliefs, the belief in prophecy tends to limit the scope of theology available to zealous followers within each individual sect." I'd like to see you explain this a little better, COGDEN. Even I had a really hard time seeing through to what it really meant, and I only Think I understand. Tom - Talk 22:10, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject

See Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr.#Propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject

I went ahead and made the WikiProject under Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement. I hope the project will be useful to editors looking for work to do. To this end I've compiled a list of red links and short Latter Day Saint articles not listed as LDS stubs. Cool Hand Luke 18:56, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Storm Rider

Great edits, Storm Rider! Tom - Talk 05:47, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I'll second that. Good Job!! Bruce 06:37, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Theology

User:206.158.2.80, you added some beliefs that are not common to all Latter Day Saints. You may wish to find a more appropriate article, such as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Or perhaps we need to have (or do have) a means of separating the Latter Day Saint movement branches into two theological groups.

• Trinitarian (CofC) vs. non-trinitarian (LDS)
• Radical (LDS) vs. non-radical (CofC)
• Ecumenical (CofC) vs. non-ecumenical (LDS)
• Fundamentalist (LDS) vs. non-fundamentalist (CofC)

I think User:Visorstuff may help on this issue. Is there a place where we attempt to look at various classifications and groupings within the Latter Day Saint movement? It might be said that the term Mormonism (as I wrote recently in the thrid paragraph of Latter Day Saint) has become most descriptive of the LDS brand of LDS Restorationism, and that therefore it is more appropriate that this article neglect the CofC theology in favor of the more Non-trinitarian/radical/non-ecumenical/fundmentalist theology of the LDS Church. Thoughts? Tom - Talk 16:41, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

We don't have that anywhere I know of, however, it belongs on the Latter Day Saint page, after or before the list of denominations. Although I agree that Mormonism is typically associated with the LDS Church, it is much broader - it covers the history, culture and branches of the Latter Day Saint movement. Anyone who adheres to the teachings of the Book of Mormon, whether or not they accept Smith, Young, or even the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon (ie think it teaches good things, adheres to it as scripture), would be an adherent of Mormonism. Let's not dilute that meaning. -Visorstuff 00:45, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You would certainly think. I see things that way too. Mormonism=The Book of Mormon. But what about if you have largely disclaimed its fundamentals? Are we willing to stake our reputation on saying the CofC adherents are Mormons? Is that NPOV policy compliant? Should I ask my correspondent? Tom - Talk 20:12, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

It does not matter if they disclaim it's truthfulness. What matters is if they adhere to its teachings. There are some within the Church, sadly, who do not believe the Book of Mormon to be true - rather they believe it is inspired, non-historical scripture, or that it contains good teachings. Some of these would say the Book of Mormon is the word of God, others may not. However, they adhere to its teachings and would thus be classified as adherents to Mormonism.

I agree that CoC are moving farther and farther away from "Mormonism," but until they completely turn away from the history, culture and teachings they are still a part of Mormonism. Please note I didn't say they were Mormons, but rather adherents to Mormonism. The term Mormon in its connotation is narrow enough now to refer to members of the LDS Church and its 20th century offshoots, not most of the pre-1900 offshoots. It is NPOV to say they adhere to Mormonism. But not to say they are Mormons. I am willing to stand by that unless convinced otherwise - feel free to ask your friend. -Visorstuff 20:24, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If we are going to discuss theology, which I agree we should, let's stick to theology based on the standard works. It is not appropriate in this medium to delve into those doctrines taught in the journal of discourses; were it so, we would still be endorsing the Adam-God theory. I will attempt to make some changes in this order, but would request to know how others feel in this regard? Storm Rider 18:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm in complete agreement that the doctrines of the LDS Church should be represented by the Standard Works. I attempted to modify the anonymous edits that were to me offensive, without removing them completely. In fact, I personally believe that if we're going to represent the teachings of the LDS Church they should be the Articles of Faith, which were written to that end. Billlund 21:23, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Caffeine

I read a poster the other day that said something to the effect of Mormons don't drink beverages with caffeine in them. Where is this noted in the Mormon Scriptures?

It isn't. There is a scripture, called the Word of Wisdom, that suggests a person should avoid "hot drinks". In the CoJCoLDS, this has been interpreted as "coffee and tea", and the church has made an administrative decision (not found in the church canon, but accepted by most members as authoritative) to interpret "hot drinks" as "coffee and tea", and to consider it to be a mandatory commandment. Some members of the church also avoid other caffeinated beverages, but that's considered a matter of personal choice. Personally, most Mormons in my generation (X-Gens), at least that I know, have no problem with cola drinks. COGDEN 06:46, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Alright. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, just trying to get details--What about iced tea?

I've met Mormons who see no problem with iced tea, but that's rare. Most are probably okay with herbal tea. The Word of Wisdom isn't entirely a health issue. It's kind of like Kosher: it's related to health, more so in the past than today, but it's taken on a spiritual importance beyond mere physical health. COGDEN 21:06, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

And hot chocolate? That's easily classified as a "hot drink". What happens here?

Going back and expanding on COGDEN's statement above, nearly immediately after the revelation was received by Joseph Smith, he interpreted "hot drinks" to mean drinks that were brewed hot - and stated that he felt it meant coffee and tea. Members of the Church are left to interpret as they will, aside from the five no's stated by Church authorities (coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco and harmful drugs). One church leader said that we should interpret and use our common sense - just because it doesn't say not to dive into a swimming pool without any water in it, doesn't mean it won't hurt us. Again, aside from these five items, the individual is encouraged to choose for himself/make his own decisions. For a complete discussion on when the word of wisdom became a binding commandment, and standard for "worthiness" to enter the temple, see Word of Wisdom. Bottom line on your hot chocolate - if you are a Latter-day Saint, you choose for yourself if it's bad or good. No definitive statement has been made. -Visorstuff 18:15, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree. It's mainly a matter of personal choice, with a few bright lines: the LDS Word of Wisdom certainly covers alcoholic beverages, all tobacco products, caffeinated coffee (as a beverage), hot black (and probably, but I'm not sure, green or white) tea, or recreational narcotics. Regarding everything else (like iced tea, herbal tea, decaffeinated coffee, O'Doul's, alcohol or coffee used in cooking, caffeinated soft drinks, Red Bull, No-Doze, prescription narcotics, etc.), I've seen different people make different choices. Personally, for example, my standard is to avoid the non-medical use of all strong mood- or mind-altering substances, and I don't care if it's hot or what plant it originated from. But everybody wouldn't necessarily agree with me on that. COGDEN 20:05, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Attempting to be the smart-arse with the one (yes, one! -- though at least he's Notable enough to have his own WP entry) LDS I know well, I raised this very point while he was drinking a half-litre of half-cola, half-Fanta (you may correctly infer this incident occurred in Germany). His attitude was pretty much 'doesn't say "no cola", so you can have cola', if I might crudely paraphrase his sage and learned exegesis. Pardon my rambling addition to a zombie thread. :) Alai 02:52, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Question

I just have a question about something in the article. It talks about "embarrassing prophetic misteps." What is that talking about?

--Parlod 21:58, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Great question. This statement was poorly worded. I believe the author meant some "Mormons well-aquainted" with opinions by church leaders that have been held up as prophetic pronouncements. In other words, there have been some things church leaders have said that have later been "proven" to be unfactual, unsupported, or later doctrinally denounced. These may include: the possiblity of life on the moon and mars, man not being able to travel to the moon, the adam-god theory and various theories about evolution, rain/water and the future of man, etc. -Visorstuff 22:37, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree that was poorly worded, and rather POVish. But I wonder if V's edit somewhat overcorrects: aren't there some revelations (characterised as such at the time) that have been amended by later revelation? Plural marriage, black people, revisions to the text of the BoM all spring to mind. Alai

I don't think I over-corrected. Blacks being able to hold the priesthood again was expected and promised since the policy went into place in the 1845, so that is not a big deal. Most of the BoM revisions were to bring the text into conformity with pre-publication manuscripts (yes, even some of the white and delightsome and pure and delightsome edits and black/dark edits), to modernize text because word usage/connotation changed (same as changes made to the KJV in the past 50 years - for example, closet and chambers have very different meanings than they did 200 years ago) and to encourage correct doctrine to be taught (if smith had used the word dark/pure in pre-publication mss in half of the entries and black/white in the other half, and you want to make sure that Mormons are not using the BoM as a tool for preaching against civil rights, you correct all entries to be consistent). Plural Marriage is the difficult one, but doesn't show "embarrassment" by most Latter-day Saints. While it is not an "official" doctrine of the church, per se (since the manifesto prohibits it being taught), celestial marriage is, and that hasn't changed, but rather Saints are encouraged to obey one commandment (to obey the laws of the land), and the other one is not in force. This is consistent with other scripture, including one that prohibits pluraly marriage unless God specifically commands it (jacob 2:27-30) and another saying that if God commands something and you cannot complete it, because of man, but you've tried everything to obey, you are justified in not fulfilling it at the time (D&C). Mormons generally believe that the Prophet alone can change doctrines/policies and set forth doctrines/policies for the Church (overgeneralized statement but culturally true) - in this way, if the Prophet stood up and said, LDS are now trinitarian, that would meet with some uncomfortability at first, but then would be accepted by the membership of the Church. So I don't think those doctrine/pollicy changes fit into the same category as the author's intent - embarrasing situations or things taught that are proven untrue. The topics you mentioined are easily explainable within a Latter-day Saint's mind, but strange quotes from people recording in their journal that a Church leader said that men live on the moon and they dress like quakers, whether or not they really said it or not, is another thing completely and seems odd, inconsistent and results in the description that was included in the article prior to my edit. -Visorstuff 17:34, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

- I also have another question. "It says "Smith compiled a theology that attempted to answer nearly all of the unresolved religious questions of his day." Is the word "compiled" being used saying that Smith created this theology based on his own study and understanding? I'm not saying it is, I just want to know if that's what the writer intended to say. I just want to make sure it stays NPOV. Sorry if it seems like a stupid question. :P --Parlod 23:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea on that one. Tom, do you have any insight? -Visorstuff 00:21, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think 'compiled' is OK (compiled /= authored), but I wonder about 'attempted'. Does that ascribe this as intent to Smith? Perhaps better to say that it "was believed" to address those issues, if what we're describing is the purported scope, etc, of the end product itself. Alai 01:04, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Alai with "compiled" and "attempted." And thanks, Visorstuff. --Parlod 01:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've made an edit to that general effect (#999!). Please feel free to edit away at my wording if it can be further improved (or is wandering in the wrong direction entirely). Alai 02:52, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good edit. -Visorstuff 17:34, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks Alai. --Parlod 18:32, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The 'influenced' bit was niggling at me too; I think Storm Rider's edit takes care of that nicely. (Some discussion of whether he was indeed "influenced" in a mundane sense is probably appropriate, but not in this exact spot.) Alai 19:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Infalliblity

I removed the following from the Theology section:

While the modern prophet is traditionally considered (for all practical purposes) infallible, critics of the faith claim there is a growing tendency towards discounting prophetic pronouncements as personal opinions or beliefs of those leaders. Defenders of Mormonism argue that church leaders have always asserted a separation between prophetic prouncements and personal opinion.

This basically is not true, members of the CJCLDS believe that prophetic pronouncements of a prophet are "true" or invallible, but they don't believe that the prophet is infallible - the only infallible person on earth has been Jesus Christ. This misrepresentation of the understanding that a prophet can be called of God and receive revelation (i.e. be the mouthpiece of god) but not be "perfect" should not be on wikipedia as "infallible". User:Trödel/sig 17:09, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I actually think that is the definition of infallible - that the work or person is perfect, when operating in the scope of what it was designed - for example, the Bible has mistakes, but on doctrine, most Christians believe it is infallible. The pope is infallible, but will still share his personal opinions that are not. When he does his blesssings or pronounces doctrine, etc (officiateing in his office) he is infallible. May want to add back in and clarify what is meant to the casual reader. -Visorstuff 18:27, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are right of course (see webster definition of infallible (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=infallible&x=6&y=10); however, I think that as the third definition most people don't make the distinction between being infallible in doctrine and being "incapable of error". I put it in here because I do think the concept should be included on the main page, however the crticis/defenders approach does not avoid weasel terms. User:Trödel/sig 19:51, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fringe Mormon Beliefs

OK, rather than engaging in an on-again off-again battle regarding the Mormon Beliefs section, let's discuss where those beliefs are found. My specific concerns are listed below. I've not listed items where there is no concern. Billlund

Nature of God

• God is an exalted, perfected man who was once a human being like us. I'd prefer to see this as mortal rather than human being.
• There are many Gods in many universes. What is your reference for there being many gods? From our perspective there is only one God, Elohim.

Jesus Christ

• Jesus Christ was the biological and spiritual son of Mary and God the Father conceived though sexual intercourse. What is your reference that Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse rather than as the scriptures state, that the Holy Ghost came over Mary and she conceived?

• Christ atoned for the sins of humanity and allowed everyone to have eternal life. Also made it possible for some Mormons to gain access to the highest level of heaven. Even Pres. Hinckely agrees that Mormons are not the only people to receive exaltation. Further the term "Mormons" can only be applied to the followers of Christ in this dispensation. What of the followers of Christ (Jehovah) prior to the Meridian of Time? I think you are being excessively narrow.'

Salvation

• Grace, acceptance of Jesus, baptism into the Church of Christ and correct behaviour while alive are all essential for salvation. This statement contradicts your statement above since the Church of Christ is much larger than the LDS Church since it stretches across all dispensations.

Afterlife

• People spend eternity in one of three Kingdoms of Glory.
• Only the most worthy Mormons will live in the Celestial Kingdom with God and Jesus. Again, the term Mormon would exclude followers of Christ outside of this dispensation and those who are righteous in this dispensation.
• Those who defy and deny God will be cast into outer darkness. References again. Your description is far too broad given that only a handful of people in all dispensations would qualify being cast into outer darkness.

Scripture

• The Bible if it has been properly translated is inspired by God, but may contain some human errors. Your reference is off here. The term is as it has been translated correctly meaning that there are many true portions to the Bible, but many precious parts of the Gospel have been removed over time due to error and design of evil men.

Mormon faith versus other faiths

• The Mormon church is the 'restoration' of true Christianity, of the form it had at the time of the Apostles. All other "Christian" churches have drifted away from the original church set up by Christ. Why put the word Christian in quotes. I don't think that anyone, including Pres. Hinckley would argue that other Christian churches are not trying to follow Christ.
• Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has true divine authority, and correct teaching. Again I think you are being very narrow here. The LDS Church has the fullness of the Gospel, but does not deny that other churches have portions of the Gospel.

• Nonetheless all other churches and faiths have much of value to teach people. OK, you do acknowledge the truth found in other religions.

I added signature for the above. There is need to discuss the beliefs section. At the moment, I am wondering how many "Mormons" would agree with this statement of belief (I am seeing it as a sincere attempt at apologetic ecumenical harmony): We are saved by grace and do not earn the atonement. However, as Jesus is the Lord of our life we are responsible to live as He teaches us. That sounds like US Evangelical theologian/teacher R.C. Sproul, not typical Mormonism. Are we trying to describe Mormonism in all its glorious color or harmonize it to a bland color of gray? Tom Haws 17:28, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

Agree that there needs to be more disussion. Is the section supposed to be what Mormons as a whole believe? Mormonism meaning Latter-day Saints rather than Latter Day Saints? For example, the beliefe section states: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one God (2 Nephi 31:21), though they are separate beings. The Commuinity of Christ would certainly not agree with this statement, nor would they with the idea that God was once mortal (nor would many LDS scholars). While these are cultural and specific to LDS theology, they may not fit under all who call themselves Mormons (strangites, FLDS, etc.) Let's stick to the articles of faith and keep it simple, not aplogetic. -Visorstuff 17:49, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Section was added by this anon [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mormonism&diff=12064298&oldid=12061168) who may not have understood our difficulty with the nuances you summarize. I hate to be deletionist, but where should this info go, or is it already elswhere, or is there an identifiable beliefs of Mormonism? Is it pretty much the Brigham Young and Strang church heritage? Will the believers in Mormonism please stand up (besides us ortho-LDS). Tom Haws 18:11, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

The current belief section is closer to what I would consider "canon" than the original anon edit. However, I think this should be moved out of theology. Theology should probably discuss the lack of a formal theology, but instead statements of faith and descriptions. We should stick to actual official beliefs and not extrapolations of those beliefs by prominent members (not taught in General Conference or published CJC materials). User:Trödel/sig 01:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This section is really a problem. My edit was no good, and Storm Rider doesn't really like his either. Why not the Articles of Faith? Too indescriptive of the color of Mormonism? Tom Haws 16:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Incommunicable attributes

Removed from article. I hope anon comes to discuss. Tom Haws 17:12, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

No divine being has incommunicable attributes.

It's me, anon (what a cool name, eh?). I think this line would help immensely in clarifying LDS teachings. This particular distinctive LDS belief about God helps folks understand a lot about views on eternal progression, possibilities about God's past, etc.

For those of you who don't understand the line I added (which was taken away), it basically means that, in LDS teachings, every attribute of God's deity is communicable to other beings. It also carries the traditional LDS teaching that no incommunicable attributes of deity exist (but communicable ones do). Hence the doctrine of eternal progression. Popular theism (especially in Judeo-Christian heritage) has, on the other hand, taught that God possesses incommunicable attributes like absolute (rational) omnipotence, eternal omniscience, self-existence, omnipresence, immutability, eternality (always with the full nature of comprehensive deity), etc. Non-LDS folks get flustered about the language of "becoming like God fully" because they assume God has attributes like these that can't be communicated. They think it means we can become omnipotent like God (but what is really being said is that we can have power like God). These same people internally use the language of "becoming like God / Jesus", but do so with an assumption that communicable attributes (like power and knowledge, not omnipotence and omniscience) are in view. Hopefully that was persuasive. I'd like to see the line re-added.

Can you add it back with an explanation for unlearned folks like me? Tom Haws 06:54, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)