Talk:Latter Day Saint movement

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Purpose of article

Is there a real difference between this term and the term Mormonism? Hawstom 20:54, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No there is not. Any extra material here should be merged into the Mormonism article. B 22:53, Feb 4, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, there is. While Mormonism is a set of doctrines, practices, and cultures, the Latter Day Saint movement is a movement. (It'a also more acceptable to the CofC). Mormonism isn't really a thing that "happened", but rather a thing that "is". Thus, the title history of the Latter Day Saint movement is more appropriate, I think, than the title "history of Mormonism". It's a subtle difference, but I think an important one. COGDEN 04:04, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually there is not. Mormonism is a movement as well as a set of doctrines, etc, among other things. You're drawing a distinction that really doesn't stand close scrutiny. history of the Latter Day Saint movement could just as well be styled as "early history of Mormonism" or "early history of the Latter Day Saints" or some such. Even more problematic is that the phrase "Latter Day Saint movement" is not common place among scholars nor even the greater part of Latter Day Saints. B 04:29, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

The term "Latter Day Saint movement" is quite common among scholars (except for Latter-day Saint scholars) and is in common use in several Latter Day Saint churches. Do a Google search. Moreover, there are several books and articles entitled "History of the Latter Day Saint Movement". After a little research, I've also found rare references to the "Mormonism movement"; however, this term is not quite the same as "Mormonism" either. Whether this article is called the "Latter Day Saint movement" or the "Mormonism movement", the addition of the word "movement" alters its meaning sufficient that "Mormonism" and "Latter Day Saint movement"/"Mormonism movement" are not strictly synonyms. As long as they are not strictly synonyms, they should have their own article. And I don't think they are precisely synonyms. For example, while the Nephites could be said to practice Mormonism, you can't say they are part of the Latter Day Saint movement. Likewise, while a church such as the New Covenant Church of God is no doubt part of the Latter Day Saint movement because of its origins, it is a stretch to say they presently practice or believe in Mormonism (they classify themselves as Evangelical Christian, and they consider the Book of Mormon to be a fraud perpetrated by fallen angels). COGDEN 14:08, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, Latter Day Saint movement is more common than I thought, and I won't argue the point whether it is not synonymous with Mormonism, but my main point stil stands: there is not a significant enough distinction to merit it's own article. Whatever distinction there may be should be spelled out on the Mormonism article. Also note, it's anachronistic to suggest that the Nephites were "Mormons", and the New Covenant Church of God example is unpersuasive...it is no more a part of one than it is the other. B 18:34, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

If we MUST have separate pages, we better define well their purposes and keep them self-contained. This redundancy business is getting out of hand. We are saying the same thing over and over and over. We should NOT say anything on this page (that is about an obscure term more than anything else) that can be said elsewhere. I still think this page should be little more than a redirect, if anything more at all. Hawstom 16:32, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK. I have to admit this page is pretty well focused. Here is a specific thing we need to address about this issue--the list or hierarchy of churches/groups. Maybe one of us needs to start a hierarchy of churches/groups. Where is/should each group be listed? On this page there does need to be some description of who is included in the notion LDS movement, but this needs to reference other pages instead of restating the same points made in other articles. I propose two rules for this page:

• This page is solely focused on WHO is considered part of the LDS movement and what UNIQUELY distinguishes the LDS movement from Mormonism.
• This page uses references instead of original text where possible to refer to groups and definitions. Hawstom 16:44, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the term Latter Day Saint movement is much more limited in scope than Mormonism. While you might argue that part of Mormonism is a movement, you can't argue that the movement is Mormonism, because it's so much more. You only view it as a "movement" in the context of institutional history. However, for that particular purpose, I don't think there is any better term. It is especially useful in the title of the article History of the Latter Day Saint movement, which is an institutional history of the movement, but not a detailed history of all the doctrines, practices, and cultures of Mormonism (because there are too many of them and they have their own articles). So I agree that the article should be small, but I think it must at least include the following: (1) a detailed definition of the term Latter Day Saint movement and how that movement differs from similar movements such as Restorationism and the Restoration Movement, (2) a link to History of the Latter Day Saint movement, and (3) an indication that the movement resulted in Mormonism (a set of doctrines, practices, and cultures).

You indentify some good points. At the very least, we can agree that there should be some acknowledgement of Latter Day Saint movement whether it gets its own article or a redirect. I don't have anything else to add at this point, and I don't think it hurts for this article to stand at least for now. I hope this discussion helps inform other interested folks why this article is here in the first place. B 02:22, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)

Where "LDS movement" fits in

Within (this is an important NPOV declaration) Christianity there is a heritage/movement/religion that stems from Joseph Smith. It is complex and controversial. What is it called? Let's call it Christianity.JS Hawstom 17:08, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Within Christianity.JS there are camps, normally called churches. They have names. They are all a part of Christianity.JS .

Within Christianity.JS, are we saying the different churches can be classified into Christianity.JS.SubJS.Group?

I say, Let Christianity.JS = Mormonism

I ask, how do you classify the groups? By history? By belief? By association? By heritage? Community of Christ and LDS Church of Christ are both Christianity.JS churches right along with FLDS Church of Christ whether they like it or not. As long as you mention JS and the Book of Mormon in your group without vituperation, you are either Christianity.JS or you are universalist.

So what do you propose are the Christianity.JS.SubJS groupings? Are there really any, or is it simply a meaningless matter of internecine bickering that is meaningless to the greater world?

I say, Let Christianity.JS.BY = Brigham Young Mormonism or Utah Mormonism Let Christianity.JS.JS3 = RLDSism, but I don't know what the name is. Hawstom 17:08, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

New to Wikipedia, and I made some changes (attributed to 64.66.218.206) before realizing changes should perhaps be discussed. Just jumping in to identify myself and let you know why I made the changes. I changed membership numbers because LDS.org indicates a worldwide membership of 11,985,254 as of 12/31/03. I added a statement, also quoted on the lds.org site (http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,4043-1---15-168,00.html) about referring to splinter groups as Mormons. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes. The whole concept of articles open to anyone for editing is amazing. You have all done a fantastic job. teufelhund9 14 Jun 2004

Almost the entire text of "Major Denominations" was a discussion of the term "Mormon" --- I moved that text to the article: Mormon, where most of the rest of that discussion was already found. I moved information in the header to the header of the new "denominations" section. --John Hamer 02:34, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)