Talk:List of terrorist incidents

First ideas

Missing here are deeds by Baader-Meinhof, Irish Republican Army (in various flavors), Palestine Liberation Organization, etc. It's not possible to list everything, of course, but are there any major incidents from these that should be present? --Pinkunicorn

Added some IRA incidents. Not sure if they are the most important ones. Any know about the Tamil Tigers or the Red Brigade? This site lists some groups that the U.S. considers terrorist groups: http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/terrorist_orgs_list.html Anyone know of their actions? ---rmhermen

My first idea on moving this list over to a less ambiguous title, was to call it list of major terrorist incidents. However, who gets to decide what is a "major" incident? "Major" is also a relative word - In Israel if a suicide bomber 'only' kills 2 people other than himself many would not regard that as a "major incident" becasue scores of people have been killed in single incidents in the past. But if that same number of people were killed in a terrorist attack in a country that was previously untouched by these acts then many people there would consider that to be a major incident. Also, how can we really define "major" after 3,000 were killed on 9/11? Maybe I am splitting hairs here.... Is list of major terrorist incidents still a better title in spite of this concern? --maveric149

Reading the definition of terrorism in the Wikipedia, the USS Cole bombing doesn't appear to belong in this list, since the ship was a military target. It could be that, as the article says, "some people call it terrorism", but this doesn't fit with the definition of terrorism here.

On the topic touched by maveric149, I'd say that this list is automatically about the major incidents, since the minor incidents will likely not get an encyclopedia entry. jheijmans

There's lot of lack about terrorist acts in Italy, Germany and France. I will try to find sources.

Who known something about Munich olympics ?

How come you are all focusing on the PIRA? There have been terrorist acts by loyalists, not just republicans.

Removed:

1986 New Year's Eve fire at the Dupont Plaza Hotel in San Juan, Puerto Rico, claimed 97 lives, mainly in the casino area. Fire set by 3 Dupont workers.

I didn't know duPont was a terrorist organization. Now if you had said Microsoft.... Were/Are these workers part of a terrorist group, perhaps one of the Puerto Rican independence groups? --rmhermen

--Rmhermen: Dupont is not a terrorist gropu. Read well. Dupont Plaza Hotel was the name of the hotel were the act happened. The fire was set by three hotel workers who later admitted they wanted to do it because they were mad cause of hotel workers' salaries in Puerto Rico and wanted to scare tourists and make them not come to Puerto Rico. In that way, it was a case of terrorism.

2000-2002 Israel is subjected to a campaign of attacks on civilians that leave 400 dead

I find that this is not netural for four reasons.

1. by not naming the terrorists it clearly is a political statement. I know who they are. (well not personally) 2. by not listing similar state terrorist activities, by Israel in particular, it is also a political statement. 3. The PLO (implied) is the only Governmental (mostly) body listed in the list. It is singled out for special attention. There are a number of people who would argue quite vehemently that the USA is the worlds largest state terrorist orginization. 4. The list of terrorist incidents is highly relevent to specific countries.

Suggestion for limiting the listing of this increadibly incomplete list of terrorist incidents:

This list of terrorist incidents is meant to be representative of non-statitist terrorist incidents which receive international coverage. Countries, like Israel, and pseudo governments like the PLO are not included. See State Terrorism.

- Karl

What's the purpose of restricting ourselves to events which 'recieve international coverage'? If we're doing this, can we state it explicitly, i.e., "List of non-statist terrorist incidents which recieve international coverage"? Because, otherwise, the exclusion of, say, violence by the Contras (which could fill several pages worth of incidents) makes this article decidedly non-neutral. Furthermore having this page at all when our page on terrorism emphasizes that many people consider this to be a wholly political categorization devoid of substantive meaning is not NPOV. I see no good way to resolve this dilemna - furthermore including everything (i.e., Der Yassin as well as the Passover Massacre) does not make inclusions any more neutral. Graft

I think we are mostly in agreement. I would welcome any sort of description of what terrorist incidents were being listed. I suggested international coverage and non-statist events only to try to bring some sort of criteria for what to include, and to keep down the total number of acceptable incidents. Where we differ, I think, is that the more I think about it, the more I like including this page, *if* the events listed can be reasonably grouped together. What is terrorism? Having a list can be better than an explination for some people. It also provides a direction for further research. I have no objection to any definition of what to include, just so long as there is one, and that it is explicitedly stated. I have no objection to dealing with State Terrorism in this section - my concern was, as you stated, there are far to many incidents of state terrorism. - Karl

Should massacres by militia groups (such as the Deir Yassin massacre) really count as terrorist incidents? If so, we could add hundreds more incidents to this list, dating back to ancient times. Going further, are we going to add things like the firebombing of Dresden, or the bombing of Hiroshima? IMHO it's better to stick with a more conservative definition of terrorism. Delirium

Delirium, youngest of the endless.. this goes to the heart of the semantics issue, as "terrorism" is of course, a buzzword with a catch-all meaning, that refers to anyone who poses any kind of threat what soever to the US and its 'interests' namely power. Im going to be peppering the WP with some Chomsky quotes, in various articles, just because hes got it on the ball, and has some perspective on these codewords and their use in subjugating the foreign masses, and rendering confused and complicit us domestic ones. -Sv

Mav, there's no reason why we should exclude an incident simply because it happens to be carried out by a state. Personally I like Bibi Netanyahu's definition of terrorism, which is "violence against civilians intended to cause fear for political purposes", and says nothing about state or non-state actors. And, finally, our own Terrorism page says it can be committed by governments, so there is no reason the Qibya massacre doesn't qualify as a terrorist incident. Until this is changed, I think that link belongs on this page (as meaningless as this page is). Graft

IF the Qibya massacre is a terrorist incident then by implication Ariel Sharon is a terrorist. I really dislike that man and blame him for instigating the current Intifada but to put him in the same league as Osama bin Laden is outrageous POV. The Qibya incident is not a clear case of anything other than a military operation gone tragically wrong due to badly interpreted orders. --mav 21:02 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

Graft, the terrorism definition you quote would fit the German bombing of London during WWII, because Germany was (a) targeting civilians (b) to induce fear (c) for a political purpose, i.e., to weaken the British resolve to wage war against Germany.

Similarly, the definition would fit the American bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: civilians were deliberately targeted, were they not? It made Japanese fear that the US would kill even more people, etc.

(I'm just saying that "terrorism" is hard to distinguish from non-terrorism by any simple definition.) --Uncle Ed 23:29 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

Well, i've made this point here before (above), but again, I don't disagree with you. Yes, the implication is that Ariel Sharon is a terrorist, and yes, the implication is that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrorist actions. Unless we have clarity on a specific definition of terrorism (e.g. as existing only in a certain political context defined by the United States), then we can't continue to bandy about the term "terrorism". The fact that we don't "like" calling Ariel Sharon a terrorist doesn't mean that, according to the definition we have of "terrorism" right now, he is not a terrorist. If you disagree, and think there is something that substantially differentiates Ariel Sharon killing Palestinian villagers from Osama bin Laden blowing up American soldiers in Saudi Arabia, then please make it clear what that is. Graft

Per the definition of terrorism it is violence intentionally done to non-combatants (key word) in order to instill fear in that population for political gain. That is what most everybody agrees with but if you do not go on and say: "This is a tactic used in asymmetric warefare by militarily inferior non-governmental groups against the population of a stronger foe" then you open the floodgates and just about every nation on the planet has engaged in terrorism and every war-time leader is a terrorist. This is not to say that nations are not capable of performing terrorist-like acts just like they are cabable of engaging in guerilla-like warefare.

But due to the fact that it is a nation doing it there still is a conventional element to the acts because nations have to ultimately worry about things such as economic sanctions and world opinion (nations are also targetable with military action and make for hard targets to hit and destroy if needed). Violence perpetrated by the state, therefore, has a built-in accountability mechanism that violence perpetrated by stateless-entities does not. True terrorism is a very difficult thing to fight because no one nation can be fully blamed or punished for actions done by stateless organizations. This is the same reason why snippers are so hated and feared - they strike without warning, are very difficult to catch, can be anywhere at any time, and are very hard to catch.

That is not to say that countries cannot commit war crimes, atrocities, humanitarian abuses and even genocide (BTW, IMO Israel has and continues to commit many war crimes - yes there is a state of war - and atrocities against the Palestinians). Also, in this particular case I do not see anything by way of proof that the actions of Sheron are anything but badly misinterpreting orders that were already badly misinterpreted by his superiors.

So in the same way as it is incorrect to lable a large and well-established religion a cult (even though they may be cult-like) it is incorrect to lable actions by governments terrorist (however terrorist-like). --mav

"However, depending one's allegiance, these acts might be seen as freedom fighting. For example, in the 20th century, Jesse James was portrayed nearly always as a hero."

Jesse James was never portrayed as either a terrorist or a freedom fighter.

Pro-Confederate newspapers in Missouri considered James a freedom fighter. And a few biographies of James have portrayed him as a terrorist, although the word was not yet in general usage in the USA during his lifetime.

The question of whether terrorism can be considered "freedom fighting" can be covered on the terrorism page, rather than here. -- Tim

Some glitch happened in the system on 2/7/04. I edited one entry (the Rome and Vienna Attacks), but when I saved it, it saved a very old edition of this page. I'm sorry, there are several entries that have been deleted.

This happened in an edit by User:TimShell, not the anon who posted the comment above this one. I restored the deleted information -- uriber 14:53, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I thought that had been me. Oh well, I restored some info as well. User:PBP 7 Feb 2004

I think somewhat differently about this matter now, so I don't want to leave my comments here as if they actually express somebody's opinion, because they don't express my opinion. You may review them on the page history. SoCal

Take a quick look at History of anti-Semitism. So, where do we want to start? Humus sapiens 06:37, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The murder of Daniel Pearl was simply a kidnapping and homocide. Can hardly be considered "terrorism", sad though it is. -- Anonymous, 13 Mar 2004

I agree. To say 'all violence by (whoever we like to call) "terrorists" is "terrorism"' is simply more support for the contention that the term lacks any possible definition, and is therefore unencyclopedic. -SV(talk) 05:41, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I added a disclaimer concerning the lack of consensus on the exact definition of terrorism. I deliberately worded the disclaimer in a way that will make this list more inclusive than exclusive. There are cases that are often referred to as "terrorism" but that probably shouldn't be under any reasonable definition. I think such cases should be listed regardless of the merit of the label, since a reader who thinks of them as "terrorist" would expect to find them here. We can't go wrong by providing too much information. Isomorphic 03:05, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It might be more prudent to add to the disclaimer with links to similar "alternative" events of murder, for example, List of massacres, as there is a danger the incidents listed may push the already broad definition of "terrorism" so such extremes as to be useless to any researcher - should all large-scale acts of violence be considered "terrorism"?. Indeed, I strongly disagree with the suggestion that the Deir Yassin massacre and the Qibya_massacre are acts of terrorism, and it seems unfair that we should single out the forces involved in those massacres - if we was to include those events, we would have to also include all the massacres by anyone ever, which is what the List of massacres article is for! --Admbws 13:47, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Have just added the bloodiest atacks by ETA basque terrorist group and 2 important attacks on former or came to be Prime Ministers. Miguel A. Arévalo 2/19/2004

_____

The 1950s was an era of little terrorism but there are incidents that occurred in Algeria and Vietnam that are not listed here.

Covert support for a coup may be evil and underhand, but it is not terrorism. DJ Clayworth 19:30, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"2003 In response to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, guerrillas in that country stage dozens of suicide bombings targeting Iraqi and Coalition targets. This may not be a terrorist attack under Protocol 1 to the Geneva Conventions which gives lawful combatant status to non-uniformed guerrillas resisting foreign occupation if they display arms openly "

I don't think the "this may not be a terrorist attack" part is true, but I will keep it there because it says "may be," and I will change it to say "against Coalition targets." Here's why:

While it can be argued that suicide attacks against Coalition forces are not terrorist attacks, when bombers target and kill civilians, that IS a terrorist attack. Bombing a patrol of US soldiers may not be terrorism, but killing 181 civilians at shrines and bombing the Red Cross are terrorist attacks, 100%. (It's interesting to note that if the US were to bomb a Red Cross building, probably by mistake, it would be called a "war crime" by some; but when terrorists do it, it's called "resistance") --User:PBP

Cole bombing

Should the 2000 USS Cole bombing be included? It's a tough choice, but I say no. Although it was carried out by a terrorist organization, and it was not a legitimate act of war, still it specifically targetted only military personel and property. According to the definition of terrorism on Wikipedia, to be terrorism it must target civilians. So I think it should be left off. Any objections? Quadell (talk) 18:19, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)

I say keep it in. It was an action undertaken by terrorists, by a terrorist group. The bombing was originally planned for another ship around New Years 2000 (see Millennium attack plot) and if it had occurred then, it would be considered a terrorist attack. User:PBP Aug 13, 2004

The Khobar Towers bombing and Marine Barracks Bombing are similar. They specifically targetted military personel. Ydorb 00:00, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)

Chechen attacks

Inspired by the Beslan hostage crisis, someone has added many bomb attacks related to Chechnya to the article. There is already an extensive list of Chechen bomb attacks in the History of Chechnya section. Do we need to add all of these to this list? Plus, we have a blurb saying "2003--Chechen militants carry out suicide bombings and other attacks across Russia and nearby provinces". Should we keep all of these incidents listed, or create a separate article, keeping the major incidents with their own pages here? PBP Sept. 4, 2004

I guess it depends if this is a list of Terrorist Attacks, if it is a list of 'some' terrorist attacks. Kouros 16:34, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

user adding "by muslims" to many entries

I've done a couple of reversions to this page the last couple of days - an anon user (different IP ranges each time) has been adding "by muslims" to many entries. Now this may or may not be true, I haven't checked every one, but is it NPOV to point out religious affiliation for one specific religion, and not others?

This edit [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=List_of_terrorist_incidents&diff=5756396&oldid=5756371) appears to be a valid reversion, but not sure about the others. Please revert my reversions if I am wrong! -- Chuq 06:02, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings

I removed the following entry from the page (after it had been removed/reverted once already):

1945 the most lethal terrorist attack (act of unlawful political violence) in history: the nuclear(or atomic) bombing by the US Air Force of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which killed over 200,000 civilians, legally the crime against humanity of murder, and the war crimes of wilful killing of civilians and wanton destruction of cities (violations of the Hague Convention then in force)

I don't think that this is commonly understood to be terrorism. I didn't see it discussed in the Terrorism article, and if it was terrorism, I would expect to see it there, as the "most lethal terrorist attack". Eugene van der Pijll 15:52, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That is true, and I happen to agree with that. The problem is I think it can be successfully argued the intent was terrorism. Yes, the U.S. and Japan were at war, and yes both sides Axis and Allies firebombed cities - which I think should also be listed as terrorism - but regarding nuclear strikes the U.S. wanted to terrorize the Japanese government into submission, and they succeeded. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 07:02, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re: Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings

Considering that many of the other examples on this page are also not found on the Terrorism article, I don't believe one can look at the Terrorism article to provide a comprehensive list of terrorist incidents. According to the criteria, however, on the Terrorism page, the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombing does meet the characteristics of a terrorist act. I personally would not expect to necessarily see Hiroshima/Nagasaki on the Terrorism page, because that page is one to define what terrorism is, not what specific acts of terrorism are. That is what this page is for.

As for not Hiroshima/Nagasaki not being commonly understood to be terrorist acts, this is the entire purpose of the wikipedia -- to provide for people information that they may not have known, or to provide additional insight on the topic in question. A nation dropping munitions on another nation (meets "Legitimancy" criterion) without their approval, while violating human rights laws by killing civilians (meets "Target" criterion), in order to intimidate the attacked country into stopping a war (meets "Objective" criterion) and in order to facilitate political change by facilitating the surrender of Imperial Japan as well as stopping the spread of Japanese expansionism (meets "Motive" criterion). Removing an entry such as this does the Wikipedia a disservice.

18:59, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Okay, if Hiroshima and Nagasaki is listed, then that opens the doors for all civilian deaths during wars. For example, the bombing of Dresden would have to be included, since the Allies bombed the city, both military and civilian targets, until the buildings started melting. I think we can go without listing such things. Let's use a little bit of CS here. Lokifer 09:56, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

- The problems relating to the inclusion or exclusion regarding the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings gets to the heart of the problem of defining 'terrorism'.

The above note is correct in stating that it 'opens the doors for all civilian deaths during wars', yet a lot of terrorists consider themselves to be fighting wars. Any page like this is bound to be plagued with problems regarding what is terrorism and issues of contributors personal politcal opinions -I think particularly with Israel/Palestine.

Operation Days of Penitence

To defuse edit wars over this, we should bring up the issue of the Operation Days of Penitence addition to the list. Is this terrorism? Or is it just a military operation in response to the killing of children (albeit one that has killed countless innocents, including children, not exactly a justifiable operation)? Was it intended to terrorize the populace (as Qassam rockets obviously are, and terrorism is defined as), or was it just a military operation that had tragic consequences? Obviously, there have been dozens of IDF raids on the Palestinians, but they have not merited an addition. Does every military operation in recorded history deserve to be added as well, since someone undoubtedly believe they are terrorist attacks as well?

I think this should be removed (we can keep the blub about "attacks by the IDF"), but possibly it could be added to List of massacres, if people consider it to be one. Personally, I don't consider it a terrorist operation (though it is a horrible event, even if it was in response to other horrible events). PBP, 20 Oct. 2004

First of all, under international law, the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is illegal. The entire military occupation apparatus is state terrorism against Palestinian refugees who were evicted from Israel in campaigns of mass ethnic cleansing. Qassam rocket attacks and other paramilitary attacks by guerilla groups against the illegal Israeli occupation, including the illegal Jewish settlements, are legitimate acts of resistance. Israeli reprisal attacks against the refugee camps are designed as mass punishment to further terrorize the civilian refugee population. The extremist Zionists delete mention of Israeli atrocities against civilians and reference to the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian territory because, in their POV, Israeli crimes can always be justified. Alberuni 03:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Israeli presence is not illegal, "state terrorism" is a disputed term and its application inaccurate here, "ethnic cleansing" is POV and false, and not relevant to the current article and dispute. The Qassam rockets are fired on civilian towns not military targets, so they can't possibly be "guerilla" or "paramilitary" actions, but rather are terrorist actions. Israeli actions are designed to destroy terrorist apparatus, not punish civilians. And finally, ad hominem statements about other editors are an abuse of Talk: pages. Jayjg 04:09, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See what I mean? Alberuni 04:13, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The "occupation" as you put it NOT illegal under international law, go look up the tenets and precedents of international law again. The UN General Assembly is NOT international law. Terrapin 13:45, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Military occupation of territory seized in war is illegally occupied territory. Only Israelis dispute this characterization, as most criminals deny their guilt. "UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel has not withdrawn, however, and it has built many Jewish settlements in the territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states." [2] (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/occupindex.htm) Alberuni 14:07, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

* Really? I didn't know that about the military occupation stuff. Could you show me the exact source of that in international law precedent. Please note that in order for you to START having claims that an occupation is illegal, the party being "occupied" had to have been a sovereign entity when they were originally occupied (please tell me the last time those territories were sovereign - and, I have a PhD in this stuff). Thank you for your time, and be on your way son. Terrapin 19:58, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I thought you were going to ignore me. There's no point discussing these issues with another tiresomely arrogant Zionist who thinks he knows everything and can justify all Israeli war crimes. Your photo should be labelled "Causes" in the article Anti-semitism. I'm sure weasely Zionist laywers will always find ways to ignore international law to hide their crimes and maitain their racist state privileges but that doesn't make them right. Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3, “Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;...” Feel free to ignore international law. Israel is recognized as a pariah terrorist state already. More punishment is sure to come. --Alberuni 20:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

* Uh...you didn't answer my challenge(see above). Please show me your sources or support to that question, or are you just going to continue to spout boring rhetoric we've heard a thousand times before. In order for you to justify "international law", shouldn't you have to know what that is? Since you obviously don't (or you would have provided proof), are you going to continue to use the words "international law", in actual sentences that learned people read, and hope we don't notice that you don't know what you are talking about ? It's fairly humorous if so. Let me know. Terrapin 21:02, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

- Unfortunately for your argument, state sovereignty trumps the UN General Assembly (yes, even in International Law - which is built on the idea of sovereignty). As for "Military occupation of territory seized in war is illegally occupied territory", can you read that sentence again, as written, and then tell me why I'm LMAO at you? No, go ahead, read that sentence again. Good lord, there should be an intelligence test on wiki. Terrapin 16:24, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Killing 31 children is still terrorism. You would recognize it as terrorism if the victims were Jews. But your biased pro-Israeli POV is compelling you to deny Israeli atrocities. It is like a disease. Alberuni 17:22, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Huh? Only if IDF deliberately targeted children. Please show me a valid source (i.e. not consistently pro-either side) that claims that. If you don't have that source, you have no floor to stand on, and you lose the argument. Simple as that. I can show you sources that say Hamas used children as human shields, but those are usuall POV as well. The only solution is to use a NPOV term, and blind accusations of terrorism, because of who the "perpetrator" is, is certainly not that. Terrapin 18:25, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Page protection

I have protected this page while this is debated on the talk page. Please let's keep the accusations out of the discussion and come to an agreement here first. Rmhermen 17:30, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

Please mark it as "Protected" next time, it is almost impossible to tell otherwise. Thanks. Jayjg 17:43, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Will Israel's supporters ever admit Israel's terrorism?

The IDF massacred 31 Palestinian refugee children this month to "teach the militants a hard lesson" about launching resistance attacks against the Israeli occupation of Palestinian Territory. This is terrorism, by definition; violence against civilians for political purposes. Who can deny it? Well, it's quite obvious what kind of people relentlessly deny and censor mention of Israeli atrocities. Alberuni 17:44, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is that really how Israel described its goals? Also, 2/3rds of the dead were combatants, and estimates of the number of children killed, generally as collateral damage, vary from 18 to 31. Jayjg 18:06, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sure, and the Jewish kids killed in the Qassam rocket attacks against the Occupation Forces were also collateral damage, right? --Alberuni 19:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

When the Palestinians launched Qassam rockets essentially blindly against a civilian town, exactly who did they imagine they were going to hit? Jayjg 22:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unlike the case for the IDF, the U.S. government did not supply the Palestinians annually with billions of dollars in Apache helicopter gunships and other high tech weapons with which to defend themselves. The Palestinians are doing the best they can to resist the overwhelming military might and illegal occupation of the racist Jewish state with the limited technology available. The lower level of military technology available to the guerillas in their strikes on Israeli military bases makes total misses as well as "collateral damage" more likely. In fact, they have been firing those rockets for years without causing a single fatality. The fact that Israel has access to higher technology which it employs against civilian areas to terrorize refugees and "teach them a hard lesson" for supporting militant resistance hardly legitimizes Ariel Sharon's morally bankrupt policy of state terrorism. In fact, it makes it all the more grotesque and fascist. --Alberuni 00:58, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I guess you're saying that they knew they were going to hit civilians, since they were aiming at civilian targets, but they're justified in doing so because the U.S. is unfair and Sharon is a meanie. Jayjg 18:50, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You guessed wrong. Your comprehension level is diminishing. Read it again and try to understand the meaning of each word this time. --19:01, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)Alberuni

*Can you name me a military base anywhere near the latest Qassam rocket impact points? (I'll give you a hint, there aren't any). Terrapin 15:41, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

* Also, in what military capacity are city buses being used for, that requires terrorists to blow them up? Don't soldiers have their own transports (jeeps and the like)? I think they do, but I could be wrong. Enlighten me. Terrapin 15:43, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As a proponent of the "collateral damage" excuse when Israel murders innocent people, you shouldn't be so surprised when there's payback. Alberuni 19:53, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Payback". Thank you for elegantly destroying your own argument (made three inches north of here), that the Terrorists are attacking the military apparatus and just "missing" once in awhile. Once again, thank you for making my own point for me. Terrapin 20:13, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni, you are the only one arguing for the addition of this entry. We have several general entries on the current intifada, and this operation could be added to the Violence in the I/P conflict in 2004 article, which is on this list as well. But you are being enormously hippocritical when you say Qassam rocket attacks and bus bombings are legitimate "resistance attacks" when the killing of Palestinian civilians in military operations is terrorism. And if anyone doubts you, you accuse them of being a Jew/Jewish supporter/Zionist to deflect away from flaws in your argument. Plus, do you honestly suspect that every singe Israeli soldier, which is several thousand, WANTED to kill Palestinian civilians in the air strike, thereby lowering world opinion of Israel? If only a few wanted to kill innocents, how can the entire operation be considered terrorism? And in case you haven't heard, Israel has apologized for many of the civilian deaths it caused, while Hamas has apologized for none of the children it killed in Israel? None whatsoever. PBP 21 Oct 2004

Useless to talk to this guy

Alberuni doesn't see illogic in his arguments. Each sentence is rife with flaws, exaggeration and is a broken record. It's like arguing with the furniture. I suggest ignoring him. Terrapin 18:25, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sure, Zionism is truth and anti-Zionism is just illogical. Why would anyone believe anything else? Everyone knows Israel can't commit terrorism. They are a state and a nation-state can't be terrorist (that was your first argument). Then, if they do happen to kill masses of children, well, it must be an accident, collateral damage while firing at terrorists (that was your second and current argument). Sure, because we all know Jews can't be terrorists! They suffered so much under the Nazis. Give them a break. A few dead Arab kids shot at their desks or on the way to school, who's really counting anyway? Some biased human rights NGO that Dore Gold tells us is a partisan, so it's really unverifiable. Pay no mind to the 31 dead Arab kids, the pools of blood, the ripped flesh and torn limbs. Palestinians don't really exist anyway and those kids would have grown up to be terrorists anyway. Good shooting IDF! Woohoo! We'll cover for you inthe US media, don't worry. No one will notice the atrocities (except the Arabs and what are they going to do about it? Hate the Jews more? Too late!). Let's just say that most of the victims were terrorists and the rest, well, unfortunately they got in our way. Too bad. Hey, Jews can't be perfect! Those aren't illegally occupied territories. Jews have every right to be anywhere the hell they want to be. That's not terrorism. That's just another day in the defense of the Jewish state and Jewish people against the anti-semites who would stuff us in the gas chamber or throw us in the sea. Remember the Holocaust and don't dare ever criticize the Jewish state! God Bless Israel and protect our boys and girls in the IDF. Over to you Jayjg. --Alberuni 19:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Alberuni, but there's little I can add to your latest diatribe. Jayjg 22:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Kent State & Tiananmen Square

I protest Kingturtle's Reverting to remove these 2 entries. They are accurate and fit the description of terrorism (see excerpt below)

-* 1970 May 3-4 USA Kent State University, Ohio. US National Guard bayonets two men on Friday, on Saturday shoots 13 in a crowd of university students protesting the bombing of Cambodia. Four die.

-* 1989 June 4 China Tiananmen Square. Chinese government sends tanks into a 7-week-old million-person peaceful protest. Hundreds die.

"Terrorism," thus is a term that attempts to define, as a separate phenomenon, a philosophy of coordinated violence which tends to have a high degree of social impact on the target society. Terrorist violence may be perpetrated by rebels in opposition to an established social order or it may be inflicted by a state upon its own citizens or those of another state (see State terrorism).

State terrorism

There's a distinct lack of state terrorism in this article. In fact, this article seems to be quite simply a list of those events in asymmetric war that were perpetrated by the less well-equipped side. Where are the terror bombings of European cities in WWII, which would fit any definition of "terrorism"? Where the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, whose stated objective was to induce surrender? The Roman destruction of Carthage? The American destruction of Falluja? Etc etc etc.Dr Zen 01:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. - Mustafaa 10:01, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

POV discussion

"Terrorist" is by definition hopelessly point of view. See terrorism and definition of terrorism. There is too much useful work here to throw it away. I suggest looking at the existing listing and identifying common characteristics and grouping or labeling them and/or retitling this whole list. Example: For the purpose of this list, terrorist act will mean : "Deadly acts against noncombatants to cause terror immediately and political change eventually." You need to group or label or limit SOMEHOW. Using terrorism as the criteria for your list is BY DEFINITION POV (like a list of locations that is is on the horizon). 4.250.138.206 08:20, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you: a list of locations on the horizon would be very POV. I do not see, however, where the analogue is in the article. You or/and the person who has put on the warning say there is a pro-American and Israeli bias in the article. I would flip your statement: there is an unfortunate anti-American and Israeli bias with terrorists. The article is just the mirror of the situation. In other words, it seeks to map all locations, whether on the horizon or not. But if you feel a terror incident is missing then please add it! By making these incidents better known, we may make them less likely to occur. Unless the warning is followed by more specifics, I would like to have it removed. gidonb 04:19, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Apart from this article being biased by definition, there are users who are dominating this article, and similar ones, who are continuously enforcing their own POV and twist on the article. Over the period in which I just monitored this article and the edits which I've added or made, they do not just edit or counter the data, but rather just delete any and everything they dislike in a manner that is in itself contrary the NPOV policy of Wikipedia, and arrogant. Thus your solution does not seem to be feasable.A.Khalil 11:14, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of the merits of having an article like this in the first place, the intent is to provide a brief listing of events which are seen as terrorist attacks under commonly accepted definitions of terrorism. Non-specific claims are not useful, nor are attempts to broaden the definition to disputed instances of "State terrorism", nor are attempts to insert histrionic language and gory details into the description of certain entries, nor are attempts to convert certain single line entries into entire articles when such articles already exist and are linked to. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:27, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The list would have to either be completely inclusive or be inherently biased to a POV selection. There is a definition for terrorism, and anything that falls under this definition is a terrorist act, be it in the past, present or future, and on your side or on my side. You should list your points of interest as you find them and I would list mine, and as long as they fit the definition you have no right to remove them just because they do not fit with you agenda or dilute your propaganda. Per Wiki policy as I read it, you are supposed to discuss, edit, and add to articles, but not just delete as you please. Anyway, I sense that this is a politically hopless argument. However, if this domination continues I think the article should be nominated for deletion and let others vote on the issue.A.Khalil 03:56, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

If we are going to have a list of terrorist incidents then we must allow the inclusion any violent incidents that meets any of the definitions of terrorism listed in Definition of terrorism article. Removing incidents from this list because it does not meet ones personal definition of terrorism is POV. As to whether "state terrorism" is a proper term, I don't feel it is our job to decide that. Some people consider it a proper subcatagory of terrosism and as such we can't exclude state terrorsist incidents solely becuase we don't agree with the state terrorism concept. Maybe we should list claimed state terrorism incidents in a seperate section or on it's own page with a link to it on this page. --Cab88 17:47, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Some people think almost anything. This list is about terrorism, not state terrorism. It's not a great article, and inherently POV, but if it is going to exist, at least it can conform to some sort of standards. And I don't intend to respond to A. Khalil until he learns how to make comments that do not contain personal attacks. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:52, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes mother, I will learn politeness from you! Huh? When did I pesonally attack you, unless you know yourself to be the one who is dominating, advancing his\her POV, and deleting anything that does not mesh with your agenda? And even then, how is this a "personal" attack. Actually, by the same measure you would be personally attacking me and all the people you dissagree with, which I presume to be many.A.Khalil 23:05, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)

WTF?

Would someone care to explain why pogroms are terrorism and other massacres of civilians, as at Cholula and Carthage, are not? You won't find anything helpful on terrorism, which defines it as including any war act at all! ("Terrorism refers to the use of violence for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological goal.")- Mustafaa

Consistency is called for. Either we include all the many massacres of this century - needlessly duplicating List of massacres - or we include none. I am therefore removing all pogroms. In any event, pogroms are rarely if ever described as terrorism. - Mustafaa 08:59, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think a "List of assassinations, massacres, and terrorist incidents" to replace this list, the other list, and the list of assassinations, would be a better idea. 68.32.48.32 20:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The ancient times

1st Century - The Sicarii and other groups generically termed Zealots begin a covert campaign against the Roman occupation of Judea, characterized by assassinations of "collaborators".

In antiquity, genocide and what we'd now call terrorism were common occurrence. I understand some desperately need this particular entry to score some political points today, but it is farther than a millenium away from any adjacent one. Why single out Jews? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:26, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"In antiquity, genocide and what we'd now call terrorism were common occurrence" - then all the more reason to start filling out this sadly lacking section of the list. - Mustafaa 02:32, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it is silly to include antiquity in this list. From millenia of violence you singled out Jews because...? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:40, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I had Romans and Jayjg keeps removing the list. Futher, no one said that state terrorism is immune from inclusion as acts of terrorism, because they are just that, terrorism. For the example I included, the Romans massacre of Carthagians, there was no military need for the massacre because the Romans had already won the war, but they did it for political effect on the region and other adversaries. That is terrorism.A.Khalil 03:48, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Other Forms of Terrorism

Would mass arrests, communal punishments, demolition of homes and land, and the like be considered acts of terrorism? They are surely intended to terrorise civilians into submission to the political will of the aggressor. A.Khalil 20:01, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

Typically not; terrorism generally refers to non-governmental attempts to deliberately kill or injure civilians. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:21, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

False. See State terrorism. --Prisk 03:35, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Political assassinations of rivals is terrorism?

Mustafaa, is it really your contention that political assassinations of rivals are "terrorism"? Under which definition? Does this mean every incident in which a king who kills a rival to the throne is a "terrorist" incident? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:26, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aha - I was waiting for you to say that... - Mustafaa 08:33, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I said "rival to the throne", not any person killing any political leader. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:39, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

All these assassinations are of rivals for power. Most if not all terrorist groups want to take power in their countries. In any event, such incidents are redundant with List of assassinated persons. - Mustafaa 08:44, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Few of these groups want to take over the role of the assassinated individual. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Depends what you mean by "role". They want to take his powers. - Mustafaa 09:04, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Moreover, the only one of the ancient assassinations that involve "rivals to the throne" is Pompey. - Mustafaa 08:50, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Right. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Seriously, though, is it your contention that assassinating a president constitutes terrorism? I find that kind of strange, although, judging by this article, clearly held by many editors. - Mustafaa 09:04, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, if we're being serious, and trying to clean this up together, what kinds of incidents would you include, and what kinds would you exclude? Jayjg ^(talk) 09:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Me personally? I wouldn't have this article at all. It's an inherently totally ill-defined title, as its introduction confesses. What I would do is move its contents to a set of articles with better-defined and more neutral titles:

List of politically motivated killings of non-combatants (a definition which excludes Presidents - who are commonly Commanders-in-Chief - but may include other government members)
List of assassinations (including Presidents and many others...)
maybe List of attacks by insurgent groups (for the benefit of those idiots who insist that attacks by insurgents not wearing uniforms are terrorism even if directed against soldiers)
List of mass killings of non-combatants (or maybe just List of massacres)

I think that would cover all the bases; what do you think? - Mustafaa 09:26, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A particular advantage is that, instead of squabbling over the definition of terrorism, it allows the reader to choose his own unambiguous one(s), making this a disambig page. - Mustafaa 09:44, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree with some of your distinctions, particularly because they fail to distinguish between intentional and non-intentional killings of non-combatants, one of the hallmarks of the difference between terrorism and other mass killings. I think others have merit; for example, I think that the pogroms and the Hebron massacre are massacres, but not exactly terrorism of the kind mostly described here. Why don't we start by making sure all assassinations are moved to List of assassinated persons, and all massacres of the kind mentioned are moved to List of massacres, which already exist, and then re-visit once the article is cleaner? Jayjg ^(talk) 17:33, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For a killing to be politically motivated, it has to be deliberate, right? Though for massacres, the issue is less clear-cut. Anyway, moving out the assassinations and massacres would be a good start; however, I strongly argue that making this a disambiguation page is the only way we can hope to have a well-defined, NPOV list. As the terrorism article puts it, this is a "controversial term with multiple definitions"; to make a decent list, you need a well-defined criterion for inclusion. - Mustafaa 21:44, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hear your argument, but don't agree with it. There really are things that are unambiguously terrorism; by moving out the dubious cases into other categories that fit better, we will end up with a much less controversial article IMHO. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:51, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Even if there are some things that are unambiguously terrorism - and I'm not sure there are, if by "unambiguously" you mean nobody notable denies it, as NPOV strictly speaking dictates - I don't think that's sufficient to make for a good article in a wiki environment. Where every list is open for additions, the list's scope needs to be well-defined; otherwise you have a recipe for perpetual edit wars, and a pretty useless list as well. There's not much point in removing the marginal cases if anyone can rightly readd them, noting that they are, as the article says, "commonly called terrorism" - because readd them they will, and when someone removes them again, they will correctly complain that the removal is POV. - Mustafaa 23:57, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But if certain classes of incidents are restricted to other more appropriate pages, which are clearly deliniated at the top of the page (as discussed above), then there can be no complaints. We can start with the first two, then work our way through the others. In the end, we may well end up with a disambig page, but let's work on things one at a time. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:53, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism of Julius Caesar

You cannot claim that the assassination of Julius Caesar was terrorism. Who was being terrorized? If you do that then you are claiming any killing is terrorism. (This may be the point you are making but it is not appropriate to the article.)

Similarly, Columbine is not a terrorist act. Who was the terrorist group? Students? Did they have a cool terrorist name? No, it was a murder-suicide. - Tεx τ urε 19:49, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Columbine was a terrorist incident

Murder-suicide can be considered terrorism in cases where folks want to bully someone else in submission, even if it's a form of revenge. The terrorist group need not survive in order to precipitate a terrorist attack. Mind if I point out that 9/11 was partially a murder-suicide; indeed, that some Islamic bombings may be murder suicides precipitated by loners, and they're considered terrorist attacks. 68.32.48.32 19:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

And what world-wide terrorist group are those two boys part of? - Tεx τ urε 20:00, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Terrorists need not be part of a group to be terrorists. 68.32.48.32 20:03, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

They don't? What ideology were they trying to promote? Free some oppressed people, perhaps? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:06, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The ideology of "leaving nerds like us alone", apparently. But, then again, they were aiming to terrorize a whole bunch of others into submission, which amounts to terrorism regardless of ideology.68.32.48.32 20:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I do not think there is even a definition of terrorism. Just like one of my friends told me "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:56, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

There are a number of fairly clear definitions of terrorism, but there are also many people who like to muddy the waters in a morass of moral relativism. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:17, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The people who did the shootings at Columbine weren't terrorists - they went to the same school as the victims. School shootings weren't common back in Romania - in fact, I've never even used a gun in my life. [[User:NazismIsntCool|]] 02:41, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

There hasn't been any shootings yet at my school either. And also, just shut up about Romania while posting. It sucks there. Scott Gall 02:48, 2005 May 21 (UTC)

That just proves how dumb you are. Romania doesn't suck. [[User:NazismIsntCool|]] 02:55, 21 May 2005 (UTC) PS: Romania Romania Romania. (See? It's not hurting anyone, is it?)º Romania Romania Romania Romania and so on and so forth until my son comes into the room and asks "Mommy, what's Romania?"

Do as Scott says. Don't keep mentioning Romania. In fact, fuck Romania. If I were you and your son did ask what Romania is, I'd tell your son that it's the third biggest terrorist organization in the world, with 22 million members. ºAnd it is hurting my head, if not me, how you can go on about Romania and not have the GNAA redirect your talk page here. 218.101.117.171 03:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

218.101.117.171, please stop that nonsense. Romania is a country, not a terrorist organization. And you'd better not be mixed up in this autofellatio redirect business as well. Thye've already bombed my user talk page with that dirty photo once. Scott Gall 01:31, 2005 May 22 (UTC) PS: How can one country that you call the third biggest terrorist organization have 22 million members when the more powerful groups like al-Qaeda don't even have a hundred? You don't need your lot to be large if you want to be powerful or notable. In fact, you don't know anything about Romania.

Yeah. 218.101.117.171 is so critical about Romania. And I don't really think he was in the autofellatio redirect business. Barely There 04:04, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Please do not create copies of articles

Rickyrab, please do not create copies of articles; if you want to move an article, there are processes by which consensus can be gained and articles moved. As it is, the general consensus on this article was to break out things like assassinations and massacres into their own articles, not include them with a different title. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:16, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

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