Talk:List of religions

Archive 1 Archive 2

Contents

1 Christianity is an Abrahmic Religion

2 Wish to add another religion to list

3 Change "Jedi census movement"

4 jewish religions cleanup

5 Which religions are LHP?

6 Bahá'í Faith

7 Matrixism

8 list of New Religious Movements

Christianity is an Abrahmic Religion

So why isn't it listed as such? Citizen Premier

No apparent reason. It clearly fits the definition as stated. By contrast, "Revealed Religions" appears to be an artifical category. Christianity doesn't belong there. Gnosticism is a syncretic religion that borrows elements from a number of different cultures, both Indo-European and not, so it doesn't belong there either. (And I've never ever heard of grouping religions by their "Indo-European-ness" before anyway. It sounds racist to me.) Csernica 23:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wish to add another religion to list

I would like to add Tianism to the list, info can be found at www.tianism.org thank you

Are there any other references to it? I searched and all I could not find any independent reference to "Tianism". How many adherents are there? -Willmcw 01:49, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Change "Jedi census movement"

It's been decided to change that Wiki to, "Jedi census phenomenon." And actually, there should be a specific page for the Jedi religion. You might want to outright delete it, because the Jedi census page is about, well, the Jedi census and the media's coverage of it. Jedi, as an actual legitimate religion, should be discussed on a separate page. So, either delete Jedi census movement or change it to "Jedi census phenomenon"

Except it's under "parody and joke religions", as the phenomenon was most likely a practical joke. — Phil Welch 18:55, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

jewish religions cleanup

IZAK added alot of "religions" under the jewish heading, probably for completeness. Many are not religions even under the very liberal definition of religion used for this page. I am eventually going to remove many of the additions, I am just busy that the moment. I am saying this to anyone who might help and IZAK who might want to make a rebuttal. User:Sunborn/s 19:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Which religions are LHP?

Satanism, Setianism & Dragon Rouge are LHP.

The IOT definitly isn't "Is Chaos Magick Left Hand Path? No, of course not. Is it Right Hand Path? No, of course not. Chaos Magick is neutral. One can practice Chaos Magick and walk either the LHP or the RHP or both. As such, either path can be followed within Chaos Magick, but a path should be taken. Remaining neutral is meaningless, and essentially is just an excuse to do nothing." source: Japanese IOT http://www.chaosmagic.com/archives/lhprhp/index.shtml --> I will change this

In my opionion Thelema isn't LHP as well. Only the Typhonoian OTO, which distancend itself from Thelema a bit is LHP. Don't know how to make it clear to the reader, so I wait for suggestions...

The definition of LHP for the purposes of this page is Religions which value the spiritual advancement of the self over other goals. This is clearly presented under the title heading. You are misunderstanding LHP and Evil, they are not the same. Your evidence presented does the same thing. We are not considering LHP religions to be evil, just ones that are self-serving. Occult groups, especially ones that practice magic, would constitute religions in accordance with the liberal definition of religion used here. --The Sunborn 02:25, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Of course LHP isn't "evil"! The definition of the LHP is "religions, which aim to become a entity seperated from the universe, ie a god" --> egoism, RHP is "religions which try to become one with a goo or sth similar (nirvana)" --> altruism.

Neither the IOT, nor the OST, nor Thelema is LHP. You completly igrnored that is posted an article by the IOT saying it's neither RHP nor LHP, because its Chaos Magic. Aleister Crowley didn't lable Thelema as LHP and the OST isn't neither IMO. I will give time to answer, and we should get to an agreement. Please describe, why do you label the above named religions as LHP! PS: the page's def. isn't very good

Just because a group labels themselves as one thing doesn't mean we should. Just because another group labels group A as not something doesn't mean we should too. It says on the LHP/RHP article that " This usage was popularized by Aleister Crowley, who maintained that his religion, Thelema, was, despite appearances, not of the Left-Hand Path". I argue according to the definition on the LHP/RHP article that LHP is any religion that is not completely altuistic. Thelma which litterally means (by power of) will, is not altruistic because the reliance on an individual's will. Here is a quote from which I come from:

"The term 'Left-Hand Path' has become an umbrella term of self-designation used by certain contemporary ritual magicians and is usually taken to incorporate practitioners of Thelemic magick (beginning with Aleister Crowley), Tantrik magick, and Chaos Magick [...] The notion of the Left-Hand Path is derived from the Tantric term vama-marga ('left-path'), i.e., the Left-Hand Path in Tantrism. [...] Its usage represents a deliberate attempt by Left-Hand Path magicians to transcend the outmoded and value-laden dichotomy of 'black' versus 'white' magic [...] because it is held to reflect the 'moronic oversimplicity of the Judeo-Xtian distinction between good and evil'"

"Pagan Pathways" essay on "Left-Hand Path Ritual Magick" by Richard Sutcliffe. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/000710698X/vexencrabtree/202-0348059-8811874)

Please do two things, if you consider contributing more, get an account and sign all your comments on talk pages. --[[User:Sunborn|]] 01:42, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bahá'í Faith

sunborn, while the Bahá'í Faith seems to come from the Babi faith, Bahá'ís believe that the Bahá'í Faith is an independent religion seperate from the Babi movement. The purpose of the Babi movement, as seen by Bahá'ís, was to come prepare the world for the next religion, the Bahá'í Faith.

All other items in the list are the main group and the divisions below it. The Bahá'í Faith is not a division of the Babi movement. See [1] (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html) which shows the Bahá'í Faith as an independent religion.

I would suggest dividing the Bahá'í Faith and Babism into two main level bullets, and have the Orthodox Bahá'í Faith as a subheading of the Bahá'í Faith. -- Navidazizi 05:46 2 Jan, 2005 (UTC)

Also, looking through the history, you wrote "Baha'i faith and orthodox baha'i are EQUAL, they are major sects of a post babist religion that absorbed all (or most) of babism"

This is not true. The purpose of the Babi movement, as written in many of the Bab's writings, was to prepare for the "The One Whom God Will Make Manifest." Baha'u'llah in 1863 claimed he was the one who the Bab had prophesized about. Somewhat, I admit distantly, like Moses telling of the Messiah's coming. Baha'u'llah annulled many of the laws that the Bab wrote in the Persian Bayan. They have different laws and different rituals. The Babi movement and the Bahá'í Faith are completely different religions. At the time that Baha'u'llah claimed his position, some Babis did not accept him, and followed Mirza Yahya; almost none of these 'Azali Babi's' remain.

Another example to seperate the Babi movement and the Bahá'í Faith is that the Bab himself came from a Shayki (Islam) background, and declaring that he was the return of the 12th Imam, but that doesn't make the Babi movement a sect of Islam.

The orthodox Baha'i faith broke apart in 1957 (long after Baha'u'llah declared in 1863) due to a difference of successorship after the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith passed away. If anything it is a sect of the Bahá'í Faith and definitely not of the Babi movement. There numbers are also quite low (under 2000) -- Navidazizi 05:55 2 Jan, 2005 (UTC)

Well maybe, however, the differences between the "orthodox Baha'i faith" and the "Baha'i faith" are the same as the differences between Roman Catholicism and say Anglicanism. The list should reflect this. It is possible that Babism is a separate grouping that could be under this same heading. Say the division between Mandeanism and Chrisianity. Mandeans follow John the babtist and call Christ a liar. --The Sunborn

Ok, how bout something like "Bahá'í" as the main bullet with "Bahá'í Faith" and "Orthodox Bahá'í Faith" as sub-bullets. And then "Babism" as a seperate main level bullet lower down on the list near Mandeanism -- Navidazizi 17:11 2 Jan, 2005 (UTC)

Very good, I think it would work out lovely. I couldn't think of any way to save it but this is great. --The Sunborn

Matrixism

I hate it that every week someone has to revert these vandalisms! It might be ok if you put the IMO stupid religion "Matrixism" in one category, but don't do that in each of these.

This must be stopped. It's stupid and confuses the reader!

Matrixism is in fact a religion wether you believe it to be stupid or not. I am re-including it on this page under new religious movements as that seems to be most appropriate.

IMO the religion is to small to be mentioned, but I have no problem with putting it into NRM. But I can't like it to see it in every single category! Levthanatos

How do you define "too small"? Over five hundred followers seems quite significant enough for an NRM.

We don't know it has more than 500 followers. Strictly speaking, we aren't even sure it has one follower. — Phil Welch 23:20, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They claim to have signed up over five hundred followers. All things considered it seems reasonable to assume that there are many more than five hundred people world wide who subscribe to Matrixism.

Where is the proof that they have even one member? I can start a website and claim to have 5000 members. Let's see some objective proof that this group exists, like some newspaper articles about them. -Willmcw 08:32, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

There have been newspaper articles written on the subject but like the website they don't provide concrete evidence of the number of followers for this religion. This is true of many NRM's and religions generally. In the academic study of new religious movements it is common practice to use rough estimates for the number of believers. Again it seems that if anything there are many more than five hundred people world wide who consider themselves Matrixists. ~Anonymous

Please provide us with links to those newspaper articles or other verifiable information supporting the existence of Matrixism. The burden of proof is on you, as the editor who is adding this material. Your assertion that there are 500 members is an "estimate" based on no apparent evidence. Please share with your fellow editors your evidence, otherwise we can only believe that there is none. Thanks, -Willmcw 18:44, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

The internet references and the word of the contact person at Matrixism seem like quite enough proof to back up a claim of five hundred believers that signed up over the internet. This is especially true considering other precedents in the category of fiction-based new religious movements or religious movements in general. ~Anonymous

Sorry, that's no evidence at all. — Phil Welch 08:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, it is actually evidence. ~Anonymous

The word of one person, and information posted on one web page (most likely put up by that one person) is not evidence. — Phil Welch 19:09, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

There is all of the web traffic, an active website and the testimony of the organization's administrators. ~Anonymous

list of New Religious Movements

I took this list from New religious movement to be merged here:

Examples of new religious movements might include:

Indigenous NRM's

African Diaspora / Latin American NRM's

Hindu-oriented NRM's

NRM's with Islamic Roots

Christian-oriented NRM's

Unification Church
Jehovah's Witnesses
Adventism
Mormonism
- - Please explain why the qualifier for this list in the article is religions created since 1850 and with few numbers? Neither of these apply to Mormonism. It was founded earlier than 1850 and the LDS church has in excess of 12 million members.
    - I didn't make this list. I just copy-and-pasted it here when merging it from another article. If it's in the article itself, be bold, don't waste your time complaining on talk pages. — Phil Welch 01:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jesus People
Children of God
People's Temple
Pentecostalism
Holiness movement

Buddhist-oriented NRM's

Chinese-oriented NRM's

Japanese-oriented NRM's

Korean-oriented NRM's

Vietnamese-oriented NRM's

Western Magical / Esoteric Groups

White Supremacist Religions

Church of Jesus Christ Christian
Covenant of the Sword and the Arm of the Lord
World Church of the Creator
Asatru or Odinism (NB: Some, but not all, Odinists fit this category)

Joke Religions

— Phil Welch 08:23, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Juche

Juche is kinda unfairly called a personality cult when its more a very realistic Socialist Political Philosophy Jaynus _Izanagi 10:42, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Is it not also a personality cult? - Willmcw 18:42, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Juche is the national ideology of North Korea. It involves an extreme form of Stalinism, isolationism, and a personality cult focused around former dictator Kim Il-Sung (the Great Leader) and current dictator Kim Jong-Il (the Dear Leader). It has definite religious aspects but I'm not sure whether to designate it as a religion or not. — Phil Welch 20:17, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Eudemism

I noticed it wasn't on the list, so I thought I should make a mention of eudemism as a little known, but growingly popular, syncretic religion (or belief system).

Er, thanks for pointing that out. I see that neither of Google's two resources on Eudism (http://www.google.com/search?q=Eudemism) concern this supposed religious movement. I'm concerned that with no verifiable sources even our own Wikipedia article may not be based on solid material. In order to elicit discussion of Eudism's place in the encyclopedia, I'll nominate the article for VfD. Perhaps we can find some sources somewhere. -Willmcw 09:24, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Interwiki?

I note that the Gaelic article Creideamh seems to cover the same territory as this article. Would it be good to link the two? Schissel : bowl listen 05:02, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

ajivika

Ajivika religion is extinct, but you may want to add it alongside Buddhism and Jainism, it had similar origins.

Hasmoneans

Why is this listed as a Jewish sect? It wasn't a sect, it was a priestly family and royal dynasty. Csernica 23:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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