Talk:India/archive 2

India's main page requires culling to limit the file size under 30 Kb as per wikipedia's recommendations. Nichalp 19:27, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Religion in INDIA: caste

2 Why is the Hindi being removed from the India article?

3 Indian Army

4 Languages recognized by the Indian Constitution

5 Discussion before adding

6 Periodisation of "History of India"

7 Early India

8 Babur

9 Geography

10 Spirituality and Worship in India

10.1 Society

10.1.1 Rural-urban Population

11 Indian or British English

12 User:24.200.191.208's edits

Religion in INDIA: caste

If we're going to label Hinduism as 'caste' and vice versa, we're not being faithful to reality nor NPOV. It has also to do with the nature of society and feudalism in communities that were justified by caste prejudices incorporated into religion, much like Divine Right in feudal Europe. Also, it is well-acknowledged that there does exist great caste prejudices in many non-Hindu communities in India, certainly not all, but enough that it is not merely a 'status symbol.' Also, major movements in Hinduism have, since before Buddha, been against caste. So to define all of Hinduism as embedded in caste while ignoring its history of vedanta, yoga, tantra and bhakti movements galore, is in my mind irresponsible and inaccurate. Let us discuss further. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:31, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

I know casteism is a curse, unfortunately it has crept into other religions in India which abhors it. You are right in pointing out that caste is a part of Hindu society. A lot of Goan Catholics (see any matrimonials) do brazenly proclaim that they are Brahmin Catholics, inspite of the Church against caste.

Unfortunately the Indian government, officially banning casteism, still has reservations for castes. I also wish to seek further opinion: Can a hindu marriage be sanctified by a priest who's a non brahmin? Are all Hindu priests necessarily Brahmin? Nichalp 19:00, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Well, just to clarify convention. Technically, anyone who is a Hindu priest is called a Brahmin. But of course, there is the caste. People differentiate between a practicing Brahmin and one of the Brahmin caste. Unfortunately, yes, Brahmins (priests) are usually culled only from the Brahmin caste. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Just to add to LordSurya's response, in many villages in Tamil Nadu, there are no Brahmins left; because of, among other reasons, the Dravidian movement, the Brahmins have all migrated to cities. Lots of village temples thus have priests who're not Brahmins. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case in many other regions. Ambarish Talk 22:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Casteism hasn't crept into other religions as someone has mentioned above and in the main page. It is just that people retain or are forced to retain their caste affiliations even after conversion to other religions. KRS 03:18, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

You are quite wrong KRS. Just recently there was an uproar in Kerala because Christian converts barred lower-castes from their church and refused to let them in. No one was forcing them to do anything. In the same way, many Hindus do reject casteism and many Hindu movements from years ago reject caste categorically. --LordSuryaofShropshire 05:11, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

No, I am right as the incident you bring out itself shows - you are talking of converts, so obviously, even after changing their religion, the caste affiliations are either proudly retained or used as a means of supression in case of upper castes or are being thrust upon on lower castes; also lower caste converts retain their caste identity for benefits- for example Dalit Christians. That covers the exact meaning conveyed by my statement. The issue here is not Hinduism, but Hindu society, or rather, Indian society that is largely determined by Hindu practices. Indian society and culture should be seen as one including Muslims, Hindus and Christians, they are definitely no different. There is an Indian consciousness that separates Indian Christians or Muslims from their counterparts elsewhere. My edits in Indian society convey this clearly. KRS 06:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

I submit you are right. Nicely made points and changes. --LordSuryaofShropshire 22:59, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

the lodhi dynasty are pukhtun afghan, not turkic. there are some other inaccuracies as well.

Why is the Hindi being removed from the India article?

Why is the Hindi in the India article meaning "Republic of India" being removed? WhisperToMe 05:01, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

1. It is totally irrelevant here, 2. The word "India" doesn't have any relation to "Hindi" as "Japan" vs. "Japanese" or so, 3. The page is also available in Hindi

It is standard practice to give the names of countries in their own official language. john k 05:21, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

So...it is ok to add all the national languages (List of national languages of India) here???

The other languages are basically official languages for different Indian states, aren't they? So it would make more sense to list them in the articles on those states than in articles on India. English and Hindi are the two official languages of national administration, so it makes sense to give the name in Hindi, but not in the other languages, in this article. john k 06:02, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, all languages should be listed or removed as all the languages important. And it is much awkward to see translation, transliteration and explanation everything there. And it is skeptical, how many people call India as Bharat Ganarajya as stated here. Just do a Google search [1] (http://www.google.com/search?q=bharat+ganarajya) and all the sources linked to the Wiki and clones--no other pages or sources.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. As an official language, Hindi has a status different from that of the other national languages. It would also be impracticable to list 18 different names. So what's wrong with just giving the English and Hindi? john k 06:43, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Not sure, whether you read the previous reply or not. And couldn't understand it is the place for language or usage evangelification as no other pages refer such

Alright, I'm not sure if you read my previous reply. I have no idea what you're talking about. English and Hindi have a status in India which is above and beyond that of the other national languages. It would be impractical to list 20 different names in the box, and not very useful. As such, it makes sense to just list the English and Hindi names, and no others. This is not about Wikipedia promoting Hindi - it is about acknowledging the already existing fact that Hindi is an "official language" of India in a way that the other languages are not. Beyond that, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. john k 07:31, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I understand... you're discussing without knowing what I'm talking about or what the topic is about

Next time, Rjyan, use four tildes (~) after your name to identify yourself. Another thing is that you've got to prove that we do know about the topic we are discussing about. I'm siding with John on this one. Many languages are spoken in India, but they are purely regional - only Hindi and English have national status, so only they get to be featured on the India table. WhisperToMe 21:57, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Various other languages have some sort of quasi-official status, and are the official languages of individual Indian states, but they are not used by the national government. I think it would be fair to say that they should, at least in theory, all be located here. But that would be deeply awkward. Given that Hindi enjoys a special status, I find it hard to see why it should be excluded simply because it's impractical to use all 22 languages, or whatever. john k 23:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Let me add my two paise's worth. India has 18 national languages, and User:John Kenney, they're not necessarily official languages of states (Sanskrit), nor are all official state languages automatically national languages (Bhojpuri, for instance). However, as John Kenney and User:WhisperToMe point out, Hindi has a constitutional status different from the other languages, and English has a still different status. This has actually long been a very contentious issue, especially in Tamil Nadu (from where both User:Rrjanbiah and I originate), where a lot of folks believe Hindi has been imposed upon them (see, for instance, http://www.thedmk.org/hindi.html). I happen to agree, but I believe Wikipedia should report facts, and the facts say Hindi is the sole official language of the nation, while English is quasi-official. Thus, I think the Hindi text should stay. BTW, Rrjanbiah, even if (hypothetically) the status of the 18 languages were the same, it doesn't mean all 18 languages should feature in the article. Look at South Africa, for instance. Ambarish | Talk 23:17, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

India has different "official" languages with different uses. Two are in national governmental use (they can get listed) - 16 others can be adopted by individual states but are not used nationally! Hindi, while not spoken by the majority of the people in your area, is a language used all throughout India. Only languages used all throughout India get listed. Regional languages, e.g. what is used in Tamil Nadu shouldn't get listed. South Africa is different - all of the "national languages" get the same status, and all are listed in the South Africa article, though only three are in the table.

And even then, this isn't a reason to delete the Hindi in the first place! WhisperToMe 23:25, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove hindi. Though it is not true that hindi is spoken throughout India, it has to be admitted that hindi is an official language of India in a sense that the other 21 are not.(Totally 22 languages are recogniased by the Indian Government. Bodo, Dogri, Maithili and Santhali are recent additions). Technically there are three different levels of recognition fo languages. English was to be the sole official language till 1965 when it was to have been replaced by Hindi. However, it could not be done and both hindi and english are recognised. Hindi is the official language and English the associate official language. The other 21(Assamese to Urdu) are recognised languages and are in official status below English and Hindi. THough personally peopple may feel that this is special treatment to hindi, it is the present situation in India and that should be reflected in the page. So the name in hindi need not be deleted. Whether it is right or wrong on the part of Indian Government is not the issue here. Kartheeque 05:21, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

The South Africa page, has the country named in all 11 official languages Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, yes. The point I was trying to make above that it's not necessary (nor would it make the article readable) to have 22 different lines in 22 different languages in the infobox on the right. Ambarish | Talk 15:52, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

As Kartheeque explained, unlike in South Africa, the languages in India operate on different levels. Only two are at "national level". The other 20 are languages which individual states are allowed to declare as individual languages. WhisperToMe 17:21, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

I think we agree that there should be English and Hindi alone in the article. However, you're wrong about the status of the 20 other languages. See my explanation above - the 20 national languages have nothing to do with state languages of individual states. Ambarish | Talk 18:47, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

From: List of national languages of India

"Additionally, it classifies a set of 18 scheduled languages which are languages that can be officially adopted by different states for administrative purposes, and also as a medium of communication between the national and the state governments, as also for examinations conducted for national government service."

It does have to do with the states. WhisperToMe 05:12, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the references, WhisperToMe. IMO, the words quoted above aren't saying anything at all - "can be officially adopted" neither means "should be adopted" nor does it mean "only these can be adopted". To cite an example, Bhojpuri and Marwari, not part of Schedule 8, are official state languages of the states of Bihar and Rajasthan respectively. Sanskrit, part of Schedule 8, isn't an official language of any state, nor is it used for any sort of day-to-day communication whatsoever. Ambarish | Talk 22:11, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The same article says that those two languages, Bhojpuri and Marwari, are largely spoken in those areas, but have no official status. If it is proven that they do have official status, then maybe we should edit that article. WhisperToMe 16:35, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Indian Army

Currently the link Army links to a page which starts The Indian Army was the British backed and led army in India I think disambiguation is needed.Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Right. Modifications done Nichalp 19:24, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Languages recognized by the Indian Constitution

According to the official Indian website http://indiaimage.nic.in/languages.htm

There are around 18 languages recognized by the Indian Constitution.

So where does this come from: Hindi, in the Devanagari script, is the national language; 21 other official languages are recognised in Schedule 8 of the Constitution.

Ok, I got it. http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/coifiles/Schedules.htm the Eighth Schedule lists 18 languages. In order:

Languages
  1.     Assamese.
  2.     Bengali.
  3.     Gujarati.
  4.     Hindi.
  5.     Kannada.
  6.     Kashmiri.
  7.     Konkani.
  8.     Malayalam.
  9.     Manipuri.
 10.     Marathi.
 11.     Nepali.
 12.     Oriya.
 13.     Punjabi.
 14.     Sanskrit.
 15.     Sindhi.
 16.     Tamil.
 17.     Telugu.
 18.     Urdu.

--Ankur 15:46, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Discussion before adding

Please discuss any changes and additions in the talk page before adding. The page is already reaching 32 KB and any info added should be something indispensable. KRS 14:40, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The person who is adding on to the society section, let's discuss here before adding. Rhetoric or specific individuals are unsuitable here- for eg...everyone follows Gandhi's non violence, reviewing globalisation under Manmohan Singh, etc., Society evolves over a period of time and individual agency is not the sole determining factor.KRS 14:44, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Periodisation of "History of India"

Actually the periodisation of Indian history as ancient, medieval and colonial or modern, etc., is considered today as too simplistic. This periodisation dates back to colonial historiography and current attempts are to deconstruct this and use only chronology and not value loaded terms such as 'ancient', 'medieval', etc.,Or even not use a definitive narrative structure at all! KRS 17:58, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

--It may be too simplistic. However, most viewers of India's page can easily associate with ancient being BC, medieval as circa 1000 AD onwards (with the arrival of Islam) and so on. It is better to stick to simplistic lines than to have a whole lot of chronological events. Nichalp 20:01, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC)

Early India

With regards the theory that there was no aryan invasion in early India. Is there any external link to such a theory where I can read more about it? ¶ nichalp 19:12, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

* http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html is quite POV, but an interesting read nonetheless.

* http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/columnsbyrating.asp has a bunch of articles by Rajiv Malhotra that might be relevant. Ambarish | Talk 19:36, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Babur

Babur did not invade India per se. He attacked the Delhi Sultanate repeatedly weakening it. The final parting shot of the Sultanate ended with the Battle of Panipat. ¶ nichalp 19:10, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

Geography

The sentence India is strategically located in Asia, straddling important trade routes doesn't seem to fit in. First calling a country strategically located somehow doesn't seem right, and I doubt whether it is in fact. Second, I don't think that it straddles trade routes. As far as I know people came to India for spices, other natural resources, textiles, etc., Anyway, straddling means probably on a cross roads or somethng like that, say like if something is on the Silk route. I removed the sentence with an edit summary comment. It has been added without a clarification. Any comments? KRS 14:37, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

India is strategically located. South Asia links West Asia, the East Asian and the South East Asian nations. Ships coming from the Suez Canal (and vice-versa) usually make a port of call in Indian shores before proceeding to Eastern Asia. Similarly, many flights from Europe towards Indo-china region, SE Asia and Australia do cross India (or make a costly detour). One of the major reasons why India so badly wanted Kashmir was because of its extremely strategic and sensitive location (China, Central Asia, India, West Asia thro' Afghanistan) ¶ nichalp 19:39, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

Spirituality and Worship in India

Especially directed towards User:Rrjanbiah - I have lived in India and spent long periods of time in many areas of the country, in villages and cities (Mumbai, Kolkata, etc.) Just in Kolkata there are literally thousands of people who make quotidian trips to Kalighat and Bhoothnaath (Shiva temple), in Mumbai the same goes for the Mahalaxmi temple and certain Mosques too. Major temples like Shri Jagganath Mandir in Puri receive worshippers every morning 365 days a year even though they're not in major cities. You may feel smart by saying you're 'reverting fiction', but the only thing fictional about your change was your pretence of authority. A common sight in cities all across India is the small altar set up on the road, and roadside areas in city outskirts or towns frequently have small temples (no bigger than will admit a single body in the edifice). And trees? I mean, Hindus are famed for the fact that they will convert the lower portion of a tree trunk into a standing murti, adorning it with flowers and doing puja there, a representative iconolatry of the local mother goddess or, with coconuts, for Vishnu. You don't seem to like this, but religion is a major part of Indians' lives, whether Muslim or Hindu or otherwise, and it's quite a major aspect of its culture. I realize Nichalp and company are working hard on reducing the size of the page, but things like this do define the ethos of India, as much as music, bollywood films and IT tech do. So I don't know your personal antipathy towards the facts, but please try to present a cogent argument for your ill-advised deletion. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:23, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

No discussion with fiction writers. *thread plonk* --Rrjanbiah 04:58, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I feel the lines about spirituality should have been re-written instead of classifying it as fiction and removing it. I agree with the spirit of the spirituality facts that were mentioned in the article. Jay 08:05, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Society

LordSuryaofShropshire: Your edits in the section are too long and sometimes not fitting within the context. I see that you have reverted the edits of Rrjanbiah who reverted yours. I have rewritten it based largely on my earlier edit incorporating some of your additions. My reasons...

1. This secton is on society, you have removed a reference to multicultural society and replaced it by long sentences on religious practices. This does not fit here and I have removed them. Even if you want to add it in the religion section, it should be more neutral and shorter with an encyclopedic style and not a literary one. By your own admission you are verbose, and if you notice all your edits, many people spend lots of time pruning them down.

2. I have incorporated the sentence on the rural/urban by 1)removing the references to the metropolitan cities which is not germane to the issue and repeating these city names everywhere makes the article long an readabilty suffers 2)removing the data on 90 percent population is rural- this is totally wrong and far from the truth.

3. Again, in the third para you have written long complicated sentences about the changes in society and the rural urban difference. All that is required here is just to introduce the pressing issues in India. Detailed discussions can come in a separate article.

Please keep in mind that this page is already around 32kb and try to add only something essential to the understanding of India without which the understanding would be incomplete.

Please discuss the issue here before you again revert. Others who feel strongly about this please respond. KRS 10:06, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since writing the above, I have incorporated the spirit behind your edits partially in religion and partially in society when it infringes there. If you write about the roadside temples, in order to be secular you also have to write about the loud church singing/ choir on Sundays, the Muharram processions and so on.... So I have just rewritten the idea as a rich and colourful practice with underlying spirituality. I hope I have covered all the territories you have touched upon. KRS 10:32, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rrjan.etc.. You are an ass. KRS: You claim that 9/10s of the country is NOT rural? Explain this shocking claim of yours. As for the religious section and secularism, you're becoming ludicrous. Loud singing is common to all religious denominations, but what is unique are the roadside temples. This is not a question of trying to favor one religion over the other. Let's not be childish. India's one of few countries that's needing to make legislation limiting the existence of roadside murtis in places across the country. I also appreciate your comments about my writing, but I never removed the cultural section. That was someone else. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:33, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

I asked around and most people believe rural population is at about 70%. I'll try to get a precise figure, but the incredulity to express about the preponderance of Indian population's being rural is odd.--LordSuryaofShropshire 16:34, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

By the way, as for the detail and length of the article, you fellows need to find a golden mean between slicing down and being non-specific (i.e. boring) and over-detailed. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:40, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

LordSuryaofShropshire, this is the third time we are having a conflict wherein whenever I make any criticism of your edits you resort to personal comments or unfounded adjectives in justifying your edits.

When I actually wrote removing the data on 90 percent population is rural- this is totally wrong and far from the truth you have reacted by saying the incredulity to express about the preponderance of Indian population's being rural is odd . What sort of a retort is this? Where have I committed that India is not largely rural? I didn't give figures because I don't know, and if I don't know I don't commit. But I know that you are way of the mark and thats what I have said. Anyway you have changed your stance after making a sweeping statement like You claim that 9/10s of the country is NOT rural? Explain this shocking claim of yours. This means that you react instinctively, without even pausing to consider that maybe you could be wrong and that other people could be right.

You wrote As for the religious section and secularism, you're becoming ludicrous. Again, this is an instinctive knee jerk reaction without any attempt at rational explanation to a carefully worded statement I have made. Is it ludicrous to insist on balanced representation and cutting down details?

You wrote Let's not be childish. How is that germane to the argument? This and you're becoming ludicrous are blatant comments aimed at the person rather than the subject. I have requested you to be polite in the past. Unfortunately you don't seem to take heed.

I see that you show a pattern of insulting personal remarks, though I must objectively say that you have been light on me. However, even that is too much for me to tolerate. On my part I cannot retort in a similar vein. The only thing I can do is to try and hope to avoid the paths you tread in wikipedia- which is going to be really difficult considering the many India related edits both of us make. KRS 18:36, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

P.S Actually the 90 percent rural figure is shocking, even if you defend by saying that you were only 20 percent off the mark. But I didn't use unfounded words like "shocking" and "claim" or "you are ludicrous" did I, I just said way off the mark. If when I have been polite, you react like this, imagine what your reaction would have been if I had used such comments at you. Keep this in mind in future and review what you type after some time before submitting it for saving. KRS 18:36, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rural-urban Population

Here is the data from the 2001 census

QED KRS 19:04, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

KRS: I thank you for the sanctimonious reprisals you're aiming at me, but I do believe you're being childish regarding the secularism issue, for instance. Muslims and Christians don't have a widespread habit of setting up religious shop on the roadside, and it was an interesting note about India's picturesque religious background. By talking about choir-singing, which is not a visible part of the Indian scene, you're only catering to a misplaced sense of balance, as opposed to real secularism. Secular means not letting religion dictate decisions regarding society, or not favoring one. No one's doing that here. That's why I said it's childish. As for the population thing, you're the one who was reactionary: "this is totally wrong and far from the truth." Nonsense. I worked from a general understanding of a great preponderance. If you're reading the English, you'll see that your freak-out about the figure implied that nothing of a majority populace is rural. So relax.

As for your broad generalizations of my comments to others, you're out of line. I've always given good reasons for changes I render in pages, whether India-related or otherwise, and I'm glad you're chary of editing the same pages as me because it doesn't seem like you're amenable to dialogue and rather take a singular stance from which you preach to others about how they write or work without taking your own editing into account. I added bits about roadside murtis because it's interesting and real; your edits are leaving the page so vague and colorless as to give it no color. We speak about names and events and yet one reads the page and gets nothing. You have to be Indian or have been there to get a feel for anything. Encyclopedia articles don't have to be literary, but that doesn't necessitate their being numb. " Indians are tolerant and secular" yes very true but they're also deeply religious. There's nothing wrong with this. If you want to balance the page don't just remove the mention of a jerry-rigged temples and mention the uniqueness of the water-bridge mosque off of Worli-sea face in Mumbai, or the Lotus-shaped Ba'hai temple in the North. Try to learn how to change a page for the better rather than making attacks on me, unprovoked, coming off the bat and levying all these charges of bias and verbosity. Just concentrate on yourself. --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:47, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

Excuse me, my discussion pertains to your reactions in the talk pages and not to any content as such. You are deliberately turning it into a discussion on content. I don't think you want to understand what I am trying to say. I think any discerning reader of this talk page will come to the correct conclusion. Thats it from me. KRS 20:03, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I support and second your statements KRS, see your talk page. ¶ nichalp 20:36, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

Pardon me, but your discussion went private first by clipping my joke about my own verbosity from my user page (which had nothing to do with encyclopedia-articles) and applying it to my edits on the India article. Therefore you had every intention of implying content. You are deliberately wriggling out of your own statements. I have already understood what you are saying, which is why I responded. For instance, I understood your comment about keeping the page bias-free, which is why I made a proposition about highlighting India's spirituality in a realistic and interesting way. Thus, if someone reads this page, they will see a whole lot of superfluous blabber (from both sides, I will admit) and wonder why this couldn't have been kept down to a few sentences. I'm glad that's it from you, so you can rest your fingers and keep your ludic comments about my writing to yourself. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:10, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

Lets try separate out content-related discussions and person-related debates. Personal debates are best held at user-talk pages. Jay 11:56, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Indian or British English

Look, yaars... I believe this is quite simple. But permit me to intrude upon your kind indulgence by explicating my platform. Indians most assuredly have an elevated form of written English, often utilizing phraseology that lingers from the British colonial past. However spoken English, by and large, is indelibly stamped with the influence of local Indian culture and has very much developed its own flavour. This I have determined from many discussions with my cousin-brother, only. Thus, I have changed the Trivia bullet to say that the Indian English spoken in India is based on British English. I don't see how either side of the debate could want much more here. --LordSuryaofShropshire 06:47, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

User:24.200.191.208's edits

Getting very annoying how much this fellow's changing the page, most often with long liturgies to Indira Gandhi which should go on her article page, not the summary 'India' article. I've messaged this person twice but he/she is just (obviously) ignoring, so I would hope people could look out for him/her.--LordSuryaofShropshire 16:13, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

I agree totally. The guy is too lame to create an account for himself, to participate in discussions. No point in messaging the person as he probably has a dial-up access wherein his IP address is dynamically allocated. [[User:Nichalp|¶ nichalp | Talk]] 19:39, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

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