Talk:German Shepherd Dog
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My shutzhund
We were the proud owners of Shandlebourg Harko (KIM)to us, the British N.E Schutzhund club's very 1st Schutzhund 111 dog. We went into this sport completely green, Kim was bought as a pet and all his life gave us a lot of love, he loved a cuddle and gave us his all, with the expertise help and hard work of helper Ian Lynch and advice from Michael Naisbit,( neither had Qualified a schutzhund 111 dog theirselves ) who had watched Schutzhund and helped bring it over to Britain we qualified Kim Schutzhund 111 at the very early age of 2 years old. We entered Kim in trials all over the country and had a great time, he gave us a lot of pleasure all his life. H e Qualified to compete in the National Championships 3 times and tried very hard but alas we noticed something not right, it took a while but found he had a slipped disc, he was only seven years old yet he had still competed, he was so brave. We took him to the best we knew, Mr Ness at Blyth who operated on him, the operation went well and all seemed ok but, not wanting to take chances decided to retire him from trials, later we were glad we did as another disc went 18 month later at the age of 8yrs, this time the news was bad, Mr Ness couldnt operate, it would have needed two plates and would have greatly weakened his spine which would probably have snapped so we took him home, gave him all the medication available to make sure he was not in any pain and keep his muscles supple loved and spoiled him for a few more precious months but the time came in October 2002 when the paralasys got to a point when Kim needed help so we very sadly had him put to sleep. We will always love him and we miss him so much, always his man and dad, Sandra and Brian.
- Strangely, Malcolm Ness was the consultant on my lab, when he was suspected of having hip dysplasia. But he didn't, at least, not major enough to worry over. He's indeed very good at what he does. Sorry to hear the sad story. FT2 12:28, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
American vs. other lines
If the American and international breeds differ, can we have a picture of both and the key differences? FT2 12:28, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
- This is a very controversial topic. I tried to write a neutral description, but never succeeded. Here is my admittedly biased description. If someone wants to try to turn it into a more balanced description, have at it. I don't have any copyright free pictures, but I can give some links.
- The internation working lines have been bred more for performance at Schutzhund and tending style herding than for looks. Since the founding stock was herding dogs, it is not surprising that the working lines more closely resemble the original founding stock. Working dogs have a wider range of coat colors (sable, black and tan, bi-color, black), a more level back, a steeper croup and upper arm, among other differences.
- The international show lines were basically indentical to the working lines up to around 1970. Perhaps the last great show/working dogs were Bodo and Bernd vom Lierberg (1967). It is not clear to me why the split occured, but it is easy to see from looking at the pictures from the time. The split accelerated rapidly in the early 1990's when the Martin brothers gained control of the SV. They pushed a "banana backed" carrot colored dog that is still prevalent in the international show ring. The working lines tried to resist the trend, but since they share the same gene pool, you can see some show characteristics in the modern working lines. There has been a slight retreat from the extremes advocated by the Martin brothers, but it is still easy to recognize an international show lines dog by the color and arched back. SV Champions (http://www.schaeferhunde.de/International/06_veranstaltungen/veran_01.htm) The left most column of pictures is show males, the middle column show females, and the right column working dogs (probably all males).
- The American/Canadian show dog was largely identical to the international dogs up until the mid 1960's. Although the American breeders did not emphasize Schutzhund, there was a lot of traffic between Germany and North American that maintained the working characteristics of the American show dog. Lance of Fran Jo (1969) was possibly the start of the split between America and the rest of the world. Compared to other dogs of the time he had extreme angulation of the hock (rear ankle joint) and supposedly a beautiful flying trot. Well, if a little is good, a whole lot more must be better. American breeders began to push for more and more extreme angulation, almost to the exclusion of all other traits. American show lines are easily recognized by their extremely angulated, almost collapsed rear end and swan neck. Seen head on they appear very narrow compared to the broader international dogs. 2003 GSDCA Nationals (http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/nationals5_2003_saturday.html) Scroll down to the Grand Victor and Grand Victorix. These are the ideal GSD acording to the US show establishment.
- I haven't touched on the temperament and health. American show lines have been a victim of puppy mills and can be spooky and fear aggressive. International show lines probably make the best pets temperament wise although occasionally you will come across a fearful one. They are less active than working lines. Working lines are not good pets for most people. They must be trained to do a job or they will invent one of their own. A bored German Shepherd is a destructive German Shepherd. Some working lines dogs can be very hard (resistent to corrections), independent, and agressive, but most are very even tempered. Unfortunately the health of all lines is suspect.
- There are other lines as well. Due to the isolation brought about by the rabies quarantine, the UK developed a very deep chested show dog that is still referred to as an "Alsatian" by some to distinguish it from the international lines. America has developed some oversized lines, the Shilo and King shepherds, and some breeders are breeding all white dogs.
- See [1] (http://www.realgsd.info) for more pictures and information. This site is an advocate for the working lines. Dsurber 04:28, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
- I think it could be interesting to mention the different international lines. Here in northern Europe the American line (with collapsed hindlegs) is considered an animal welfare issue and is very very unusual. I have heard some vetrinarians don't even treat these dogs, partly not to support the ownership, partly to avoid the dangers of unpredictable behaviour. P.S. 05:48, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- If by this you mean things like the differences between German (international) lines and DDR or Chech or French lines, then we are getting very specialized. Due to the Iron Curtain, the Eastern block dogs were isolated for forty years and there are some differences. Eastern block show dogs remained much closer to their working cousins. Eastern block working dogs were not much influenced by the Western (international) show lines. Eastern dogs, working and show, tend to be blockier, smaller and perhaps more hard and aggressive than their Western counterparts. French dogs were largely bred for Ring Sport more than Schutzhund and tend to be lighter and more athletic. Herding lines dogs (HGH) have also changed over the years. It used to be they were strongly attracted to sheep and were strong independent workers. Because there is much less need for actual herding dogs and because of the way HGH trails are judged, the dogs have lost some of their independend working ability. This is all broad generalization and individuals in each line vary considerably. As you divide the breed into smaller groups it becomes harder to distinguish them. They are all still German Shepherd Dogs, well except for American show lines which really should be considered as separate breed IMHO. DSurber 00:23, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ace the bat hound and bizhat
I have reverted the addition of a link to http://germanshepherd.bizhat.com . The link doesn't add much information about the dog and some of the information on that page might be copyrighted. It's far better to link to more official resources when it comes to breed standards and such. P.S. 18:07, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I removed Ace the Bathound and the link to http://germanshepherd.bizhat.com again. Ace the Bathound is linked in the list of fictional dogs. As noted below http://germanshepherd.bizhat.com doesn't add much. This is the second time each of these links has been added and removed. I'm not an experienced Wikipedian so I don't know how do deal with such revision wars, but if these edits reappear, we probably should do something. DSurber 19:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Re: Ace, The Bat-Hound;
Ace, the Bat-Hound is an important Chapter of GSD lore. If he doesn't get a seperate link on the GSD page, Ace's page probably should have one.
Michael Reiter.
- I doubt that most people except fans of older Batman comics (and I'm one) would even recognize the reference. I'd say that Ace is far less important than, say, Rin Tin Tin, and at the moment even RTT doesn't have a link here. So we should either go ahead & duplicate all fictional & famous GSDs here with appropriate headings (meaning we'll have to maintain the lists here & on the main list pages) or we shdn't be listing just one. Elf | Talk 19:56, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Re: Re: Ace, The Bat-Hound-"I'd say that Ace is far less important than, say, Rin Tin Tin-"
I have to disagree. Ace is a treasured part of the silver age Batman mythos, and a treasured part of the vast, rich legacy of the GSD. He deserves his own link because he has his own page. I didn't write it, and I don't know who did. Incidentally, all GSDs are heirs apparents to a vast, rich legacy of loyalty and bravery that they and their fictional counterparts are heir to.
I hope to see a page or pages on Both Littlest Hoboes, and Rex the Wonder Dog, if there aren't any already... Michael Reiter
- No, I don't consider it important information about the breed. List of fictional dogs is just for that, and link to the list as well as perhaps a comment that GSD are often found in fiction is more than enough. Ace is not very well known outside a small group of fans. No need to weight down the article with pointless links. P.S. 13:47, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
White GSDs
Moved section from article to Berger Blanc Suisse; moved this Talk section to Talk:Berger Blanc Suisse; haven't done any merging or editing, though. Elf | Talk 21:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)