Talk:England national football team
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My wish list for the article:
- World Cup appearances
- Famous victories/incidents
- List of team captains (let's not include friendlies or else we'll have to include Heskey)
- Why the UK gets to field 4 teams
Erzengel 11:39 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Would also like to show, home/away strip and team emblem and flag in a table. Mintguy
I have found a very good source for details of ALL of England's football matches up until earlier this year.[[1] (http://www.englandfootballonline.com/MatchRsl/MatchRsl1872.html)] The page states that users are free to copy the information for non-profit personal use etc.. I have emailed (yesterday) the copyright holder to get his permission to specifically use it in Wikipedia. No reply yet, but given the wording on the page, I don't think it will be a problem. Mintguy
- Did you have any joy with the above, Mintguy? Pete 22:39, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- No reply was the answer. The same information is contained at http://www.england-afc.co.uk/ I think this info is in the public domain. Mintguy
This info at http://www.englandfootballonline.com/MatchRsl/MatchRsl1872.html and http://www.england-afc.co.uk is still there if anyone is brave enough to want to import it. Mintguy (T)
- That page has opponent, date, venue, score, match type (friendly, world cup etc) and half-time score... do we want to include all this, or miss off the last two? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 09:43, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Forget about the half-time score, but I would say the match type is important enough. I don't mind importing it, but given the amount of data (800-plus lines), I would suggest a separate page - List of English national football matches? Sjorford 09:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There's no point in losing information if it is available. We're not going to run out of space, so we can keep the H/T scores. Mintguy (T)
- With section editing we can be quite flexible when we chose to agglomerate or split out pages. A key test is what pages will link to the split out page. If it is just the "parent" article, then splitting out has limited value - it is better to have the data on a single topic in one place. A problem with that article at the moment is however, I appreciate, is that it is all data and no prose (see e.g. the new box at the top right). I guess it would be a lot of work and require a knowledgable person to change the World Cup, famous players, top goalscorer etc lists into a history of the team in prose. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 10:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I wish this article started in a less ego-centric English way. We're still banging on about winning the World Cup nearly 40 years after the event. Mintguy (T)
So why did you move English National Football Team to England NFT ? Bob Palin 14:31, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- The move to England national football team is to reflect that the team is known as "England" or the "England team" and not the "English team". The team name follows the name of the country. A quick check of the England team section of the official FA website, for example, makes reference only to "England" and the "England team" and no reference at all even to the word "English". "English" is certainly possible to use as an adjective here, but it seems to me that the name of the team should take precedence. In football competitions, national teams go by their national name.
- It also makes the pages easier to follow if all the international team pages take their national name rather than the associated adjective - what do you call someone from New Zealand, anyway? How do you distinguish between the Republic of Congo and the Democratic Republic of Congo without using the name of the country? What about ethnic Croats who play for Serbia and Montenegro or ethnic Mongolians who play for China - is the best way to refer to the team really as Serbian or Chinese? Finally there is the potential problem of references like American football team. All very confusing unless as much ambiguity is removed as possible.
- So that's why... - Madw 16:36, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
I think NFT of England would be better. Mintguy (T) 16:50, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So do I, although I see nothing wrong with English. Country names that don't have natural adjectives use the country name. Language is not an exercise in logic, it is all about usage. The team is called England and they are therefore the English National Football Team Bob Palin 18:35, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I support the name English national football team or maybe national football team of England, but I think the latter is unnecessarily long. Also notice there aren't capital letters except for on England.
SimonMayer 18:45, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Seems like a consensus is developing around National football team of England, and I'm fine with that too. As for length, it's just an "of" longer than what we have now and I don't consider that a problem. I'm going to copy these comments to the existing page itself so others can contribute if they want. - Madw 23:45, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry to be a PITA, but I think "of England" is an unnaturally complex construction. Think what people would type into Google, or guess what to link to when writing other articles. On these grounds I would go for a simple England football team - it's what people actually call it. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 08:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- "of England" looks very strange. I think England football team is the obvious name, either with or without national. sjorford 09:18, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I do not wish to be counted as any part of a consensus to use the 'of England' form, I simply said it was better than England NFT. I want to return to English NFT as it was before, that is the normal and natural way to refer to the team in this linguistic construction. Bob Palin 13:59, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Name options
Favourite option in bold
England national football team
- Acceptable to: Pcb21, Sjorford, Madw
- Unacceptable to: Bob Palin, Mintguy
English national football team
- Acceptable to: Pcb21, Bob Palin, Simon Mayer, Sjorford, Mintguy, Arwel
- Unacceptable to: Madw
England football team
- Acceptable to: Pcb21, Sjorford, Mintguy, Madw, Bob Palin, Arwel, calexico
- Unacceptable to:
National football team of England
- Acceptable to: Bob Palin (but prefers English NFT), Madw, Mintguy, Simon Mayer
- Unacceptable to: Pcb21, Sjorford,
"England national football team" just looks odd to me. Any of the other options is preferable. Mintguy (T)
"England football team" is acceptable to me because linguisticly it is "The England football team", "English football team" would not be correct as it could describe any English football team. "England national football team" looks odd because it is not written in English Bob Palin 20:16, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
We have to think how this is going to apply to other nations. Is Republic of Ireland football team or Germany football team going to be acceptable, or shall we just accept inconsistency. Mintguy (T)
- How about putting "(football team)" in brackets? That would make linking easier - [[England (football team)|]] would display as England, and it should look fine with Germany, Republic of Ireland or any other country name. sjorford 10:52, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I like it, although I could go for "England football team" too. - Madw 13:13, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
- I think that England football team would be the best option, however, would it be better to get a consensus on the naming of all national football teams so that there is consistency? Is there already an ongoing debate on the naming of all national football teams on some other page. Apologise if I am slow to come on to this, am fairly new...calexico 13:22, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, I thought about the paren scheme too, I would prefer England (national football team) but just football team would be OK. As for consistency I think we should be consistent and originally we were by using the adjective, German nft for instance or French. The question has been raised about what to do where a suitable adjective is not available or is ambiguous and there the proper thing would be to use an apostrophe - "New Zealand's nft" for instance, not sure that apostrophies are liked in article titles though. We are building an encyclopedia, in this case in English, it's important that proper English is used. Bob Palin 00:36, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
We seem to have stalled. As I read the above, the most favoured of the first options was England football team. Perhaps we can now consider that alongside the () options and then reach a conclusion, unless someone has an alternative not already mentioned. Here goes then... - Madw 12:41, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
- An alternative might be, instead of national football team, use international football team, as the team is involved in playing internationals
Indicate acceptability, with favourite in bold:
England football team
- Acceptable to: Madw, Calexico, Arwel, Pcb21, sjorford
England (football team)
- Acceptable to: Madw, Calexico, Arwel, Pcb21, sjorford
England (national football team)
- Acceptable to: Madw, sjorford, Bob Palin
No votes in a while, so I suppose it's decision time. My interpretation of the above results is that England (football team) would be the most acceptable choice, but before the page is moved I'll give a day or two for others to chime in if they disagree with this interpretation. Madw 01:25, May 4, 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with your conclusion, go for it Bob Palin 22:39, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm getting confused with the world cup record table. Why does it say something in the Early rounds and Quarter-finals/2nd group round boxes for world cups that England didn't even enter? Deus Ex 18:24, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
- Just an attempt at creating something that could be used for any team's World Cup history, easy to copy and edit for other pages, but something made more difficult by the fact that the World Cup finals have changed format so often and different years may mean different things. Madw 15:09, May 15, 2004 (UTC)
I see. I like the design of the table - hopefully it can be incorporated into other national team pages once the design is finalised. Deus Ex 17:47, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
England Logo
Doesn't England have a new logo with a star on top, representing the world cup won in 1966? Other teams that won the world cup, have stars representing those victories: Brazil - 5 stars; France - 1 star; Italy - 3 stars. DragonFire 17:23, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
I've just noticed that we don't appear to have an article on the defunct British Championship or Home International Championship as it was also known. Mintguy (T) 03:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)