Talk:ECHELON
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I've removed the following text from the article: A search of CIA documents contained on the CIA website as a result of Freedom Of Information Act request returns many matches for the keyword "ECHELON", further confirming the existence of the system. The CIA search, I believe, is letter-by-letter, and results often do not contain the search term as a word. Either way, the evidence of a word in FOIA files is in no way a validation of Echelon's existence. --User:Prospero
This article contains what sounds to me like some very fantastical claims. How, exactly, is this supposed to work?
I don't doubt the existence of Echelon, mind you. I'm just questioning whether it is really possible for it to be intercepting everything in the way that is claimed. The sheer bandwidth required inside the system would be staggering.
And how, exactly, are these deep space satellites supposed to be sniffing fiber optic packets?
How much of this article is actually confirmed, and how much is just sheer slashdot-style fear mongering?
Note well! I am opposed to the existence of anything even remotely like this. I'm just asking in my role as an encyclopedist whether or not this information has been validated! I'm not advocating on behalf of echelon I just thought I'd say that. --Jimbo Wales
I know that the information seems controversial. Here are some links on the subject:
[1] (http://www.statewatch.org/eufbi/news4.htm) [2] (http://jya.com/)
WojPob (BTW: if you don't like it - delete it! you're the boss)
I'm only the boss in a very limited sense. This is wikipedia, everyone is the boss. :-) I may do some research and tone it down a bit. The ACLU has a site about it, with more reserved claims. --Jimbo Wales
- Satan's greatest achievement was to to make humanity believe that he doesn't exist -- WojPob*
I actually drove past GCHQ in Cheltenham (I'd got lost!) a few weeks back - this is the UK headquarters for this snooping - and I was amazed at the scale of new building work going on there...it looks to be equal in size to all the existing buildings (so far as could been seen from the road) British Telecom is one of the contractors, according to the builders notice board, so it looks like they'll soon have a lot of extra bandwidth to feed to the extra gear in all that new space. After all, if you want to sniff fiber optic packets, it's simpler to just get the major telcoms provider to run their cables through a government installation than mess about with satellites....
- is that quote originally from Bryan Singer's "The Usual Suspect", or d'ya have it from somewhere else?
I paraphrased it myself, but I think it sort of stuck in my head from somewhere, might have been the "Usual Suspects" - I dont know. WojPob.
Yes, that's The Usual Suspects: "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist." --KQ
- Well, it was mentioned there, but I think the idea is much older...
Apparently one major misunderstanding is the sentence with the deep space satellites. I didn't mind because there are more installations mentioned than te satellites in this sentence, so I arranged the means to the sniffed pathways myself. But it's true, this sentence probably needs to be written in two separate ones.
This article presents Echelon as a secret spy network. Due to its nature, the information presented here cannot be confirmed by independent sources. It may be the result of a desinformation campaign. Echelon should be refered as an hipotetical network. As it is now, the article violates the NPOV.
- Nonsense. When governments have spoken out loud their attempt to keep secrets or deceive, the NPOV shifts, and should reflect the view of those who aren't keeping secrets - in this case the dissidents who oppose and expose it. To demand the same degree of documentation for their position as for other work is to effectively censor it. That is clearly your intent. You are fooling no one, Echy baby. When did you grow a voice?
- Okay, can I be the first to say that's the most absurd rebuttal I've seen in a very long time. The existence and nature of echelon is a disputed matter, therefore NPOV must apply and readers should be notified that they are only reading one side's version of the facts, or better yet, should be informed of the varying versions of what Echelon exactly is. Right now it's like me going and editing chemtrails to state that chemtrails are a fact, and that airlines are working with the government to oppress us all. Under your logic I could defend it as "reflecting the view of those who aren't keeping secrets" (me), thereby removing the need for me to prove my claims. In fact, the existing chemtrails article is a perfect example of what this article should say, with the claims being outlined, but presented as a theory, not as fact as long as they are still disputed. That's exactly what NPOV is all about. 138.25.8.1 06:52, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Check out the report by the European Union's parliament that's linked at the bottom of the page. Eschelon is pretty much confirmed to exist now, the only details that are still uncertain are its exact capabilities and uses.
This is a controversial issue with no possible independent confirmation. European Union's parliament is not an independent source, bet an intereted part. Being a controversial and unverifieable issue, information must be atributed to sources. Joao
- why is EU parliament not an independent source? the EU isn't a party to the program, itself
- Some people believe that ECHELON is used to spy on European business negotiators. The EU member states have an interest in stopping such espionage. Anders Feder
Regarding the phrase "drugs and thugs" -- in the interest of neutrality, I'd recommend choosing a different word than "thugs." A nice rhyme, but it doesn't seem to fit the article. I'd suggest a substitute, but I'm not sure what would be the best fit based on reports (and please attribute!) regarding the intended subjects of surveillance. -- Rethunk
There are NSA patents on 'text analysis by topic'. They should be mentioned, as they were filed after some information about Echelon was released, seemingly as an attempt to prevent commercial enterprises from slowing down research, or developing similar technology for sale. It would seem to validate existence of Echelon. NSA never filed a patent before that...
1) Has anyone heard of something called "Carnivore" mentioned in connection with Echelon? What is it and does it belong in this article?
- I believe Carnivore was/is an FBI project, while ECHELON is NSA. It could, theoretically, be used in conjunction with ECHELON, however. Carnivore (off the top of my head) scans emails for keywords and flags messages that contain words from their hotlist. --Jonathan Patt 17:24, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)
2) Echelon is/was definitely real and not just a figment of some conspiracy theorist's imagination. In many (most) democratic countries, it is (or until recently was) illegal for a government to spy on its own citizens without probable cause. It would not, however, be illegal for say, the US government to monitor Canadian citizens, and then share some of that information with Canadian intelligence agencies, etc, etc. This is exactly what's been purported to happen with ECHELON - it provides (or provided - has it been dismantled?) a sort of "loophole" for governments to spy on their own citizens.
- I agree, it's definately a fact. I removed the excessive "is believed to be" from the intro. Martin 22:00, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Is ECHELON an acronym? If it is, it needs to be defined. --Rookkey 00:26, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Unlikely, but possible. At least, I have never heard of it. Government project titles are often all-caps. --Jonathan Patt 17:24, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)
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Morwinstow
Morwinstow is a small village with an interesting vicarage, there's certainly no international listening post there. You can see Goonhilly from there though, is that what's meant?
- Who says they want you to know it's there? I'm not a tinfoil hat type, and I still acknowledge that anyone involved could put something there and not make it visibly obvious. -Joseph (Talk) 18:41, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)
- The Composite Signals Organisation Station near Morwenstow, Cornwall run by Britain's GCHQ is quite visible (just google for pictures of the big satellite antennae... Marcika 15:46, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
TIA
The Total Information Awareness bit ought to be deleted. TIA has been torpedoed by Congress and is really no longer relevant, especially not to Echelon. --thames 19:42, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh yes? The DoD is still pursuing the idea (see the recent Op-Ed from Pindexter about it in the New York Times), it just has renamed it to Terrorism Information Awareness. And a giant database collecting and connecting information and communication data from US citizens is actually fairly similar to what Echelon is trying to do outside the US.- Marcika 15:46, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)- You're right, there have been no news about the resurrection of TIA since about a year ago... We should move the bit about TIA from the header to the end of the article... - Marcika 16:53, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Done, at rather long last. Dan100 16:19, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
Western Australia
I believe that one of the OTC satellite stations in WA is or was ECHELON related. I know someone who used to work there, a few decades ago, and there were quite a few spooks running around from his account, using the commercial satellite communications going on as a cover.
Could you or him be refering to Pine Gap, NT? There was also the Woomera Prohibited Area in South Australia. Kanadier 13:47 24 Mar 2005 UTC
Removed for now...
- Note that the US$3.6 billion number is very likely off by a several orders of magnitude, as those numbers would work out to US$94000 per employee per year: not enough to cover salary requirements.
Really? I would have thought that would have been quite enough to cover salary requirements; what's the average wage in the States? — Matt Crypto 17:36, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Total Information Awareness, Disguised And Alive"
The article currently says:
- The proposed US-only "Total Information Awareness" program relied on technology similar to ECHELON, and was to integrate the extensive sources it is legally permitted to survey domestically, with the "taps" already compiled by ECHELON. It was cancelled by the U.S. Congress in 2004.
Apparently however, it wasn't "cancelled", after all; the essense of Total Information Awareness didn't die with that. According to the AP story (linked below):
- "The work, however, did not die.
- In killing Poindexter's office, Congress quietly agreed to continue paying to develop highly specialized software to gather foreign intelligence on terrorists.
- In a classified section summarized publicly, Congress added money for this software research to the "National Foreign Intelligence Program," without identifying openly which intelligence agency would do the work."
...etc (my emphasis). See:
- Slashdot | Total Information Awareness, Disguised And Alive (http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/02/22/2352217.shtml)
- The AP story is widely quoted and also available in full on the net: Google search for the AP story (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Some+projects+from+retired+Adm.+John+Poindexter%27s+Total+Information+Awareness+effort+were+transferred+to+U.S.+intelligence+offices,+congressional,%22&filter=0)
--Vinsci 15:49, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Shoal Bay?
The article lists the "Shoal Bay" installation as being in New South Wales, is this corrent?
http://archives.openflows.org/hacktivism/hacktivism01421.html along with many others (google: "shoal bay" echelon) mentions "Shoal Bay, near Darwin in Northern Australia"...
http://echelononline.free.fr/documents/dc/inside_echelon.htm Also lists shoal bay as in the NT.