Talk:Duesberg hypothesis

Contents

1 Older discussions 2 Disputed

Older discussions

It would be interesting to know when the Duesberg hypothesis was postulated to understand that in the right context. -- mkrohn 21:19 Apr 6, 2003 (UTC)

The "Duesberg hypothesis" was not formulated by Duesberg at all. It was in fact the first hypothesis given by the government researchers themselves, before 1984. The idea that drugs and environmental factors were the priamry cause of AIDS was the predominant scientific opinion at one time in the early 1980s. Only after the "announcement" of HIV as the cause did this change. But ideas that poppers were a primary cause of many early AIDS cases came straight out of the NIH itself in the beginning. Revolver

To answer your question though, the first real signficant published article to challenge HIV appeared in 1987 by Duesberg, "retroviruses as carcinogens and pathogens, expectations and reality" Revolver

I take real offense to the placement of a link to "AIDS misconceptions and conspiracies" in this article, esp. the "conspiracy" part. I think it violates the NPOV stance by making those who question the HIV hypothesis out to be "conspiracy theorists". I think the link should be removed. Revolver

Strictly speaking, the idea that HIV might not cause AIDS is not a "hypothesis". The "drug-AIDS hypothesis", that hypothesises drugs as a possible cause of AIDS illnesses, is an example of a true hypothesis. Saying that HIV does not cause AIDS is not hypothesising a new fact, it is challenging a previously existing hypothesis (namely, that HIV causes AIDS). The only reason "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" is considered a "hypothesis" is because the claim that HIV causes AIDS has become so widely accepted that people psychologically consider it an obvious fact of reality, rather than a scientific claim. Even if all the evidence does support the HIV hypothesis, this doesn't make the idea that HIV does not cause AIDS itself a "hypothesis", it's just a claim against the original hypothesis. The idea that questioning HIV is itself a "hypothesis" is wrong. I can question the existence of gravitational force or electromagnetic force, but this by itself isn't putting forward forward a positive claim, it's arguing against a hypothesis, whether or not the hypothesis has enough evidence to support it or not. Revolver

I agree, but I've usually heard it called the "Duesberg hypothesis." Unfortunately, I haven't followed recent discussion of this idea. Read quite a bit about it a few years back (including Inventing the AIDS Virus, Rethinking AIDS and a couple other books); I've been wanting to tackle this issue since I became a Wikipedia contributor, but am worried that I may be uninformed (and quite biased, since I strongly tend to believe the "Duesberg hypothesis"). Though, considering this article (and the AIDS article), it seems to me such a bias might be needed in order to counterbalance the existing treatment of this as a "conspiracy theory" of sorts. The article on Duesberg's hypothesis could certainly be much more detailed. Any ideas on how to proceed? I'd have to get back into research before I'd feel comfortable contributing to this article... -- Wapcaplet 01:32 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Wapcaplet, I've had many of the same thoughts. I've been a dissident since 1996, and have thought of adding to this article or starting a new article, but I haven't, mainly for the reason that I fear my own POV is too far from neutral. The only reason I keep thinking of doing such a thing is that most people's idea of a "NPOV" stance is, in MY eyes, far from neutral. It would be a good exercise for me to try to give an real account of the controversy in a NPOV, but I've had other things to do, and I wouldn't look forward to the inevitable conflicts that would arise from people's reactions. If you want to talk about it, give me an email (dbrown@math.ucsb.edu) cheers Revolver

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The "Duesberg hypothesis", as I understand it, most frequently refers to the hypothesis by Peter Duesberg that AIDS is caused by hard injected drug use, and not HIV. Though there are many who are skeptical that HIV is the cause of AIDS, the Duesberg hypothesis is simply one of the alternative explanations, by the man who is probably the most vocal opponent of the HIV-AIDS idea; others have suggested alternative hypotheses, or who do not have a hypothesis for the cause of AIDS (but who still question HIV as a causative factor). At any rate, this article should be about Duesberg's hypothesis. A separate article should be used for exploring the more general notion of "those who are skeptical that HIV causes AIDS." I've encountered no simple, terse terms to describe such ideas, so here are a few suggestions for article titles:

• HIV-AIDS skeptics (would be my first choice for a title)
• HIV-AIDS reappraisal or simply AIDS reappraisal (second choice)
• Rethinking AIDS (good, but could be confused with the book of the same name)

Any other suggestions would also be welcome. I believe this subject can be treated neutrally, provided we stick with the known facts and findings. I am not sure how useful I will be in contributing to this article right now, since it has been at least 4 years since I've followed any of the news on AIDS, but the primary arguments against HIV-AIDS I've usually seen are:

• The lack of any study or other publication proving HIV to be the cause of AIDS (if this is still true; I know that as of 1999, one had not turned up)
• The failure to isolate "pure" HIV
• Individuals with HIV but no AIDS, or AIDS without HIV
• Difficulties with false-positives in HIV testing
• The CDC statistics disproportionately indicating hard drug use, especially among males, as the primary risk factors, even until recent years
• Positive correlation between AZT treatment and the onset of AIDS-related illnesses

Again, not having followed the discussion recently, I am not aware whether these claims have been discredited or otherwise explained. I'd be obliged if anyone could direct me towards any recent news on these matters; much of the material I've seen is quite old and outdated. -- Wapcaplet 18:07 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Since another article has been started focused on the dissident movement and questioning of HIV in general, I move that the current page be rewritten as a short article on the drug-AIDS hypothesis, which is really what most people involved in HIV (orthodox AND dissident) mean when they say "Duesberg hypothesis". I am NOT refering to the lay press. Revolver

Agreed. Duesberg hypothesis should be a redirect to that, then. I've also heard it called the risk-AIDS hypothesis, though that may be a conceptually different animal. -- Wapcaplet 22:46 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Disputed

IMHO the neutrality and the factual accuracy of this article is still disputed, and without changes to the article, it will become worse, as year by year any remaining doubts whether the Duesberg hypothesis is nonsene vanish. You just don't see much disussion here, perhaps because other contributors don't know about the article or have resigned changing ot. For related discussions see this talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:AIDS_in_Africa#Bangui_AIDS_definition.3F__Evidence_for_half_AIDS_sufferers_not_HIV-positive.3F) and the main article AIDS and its talk page.

Anyway, I don't re-insert the tag for now, as the cost/benefit ratio of this action doesn't seem to be that good. Perhaps an RfC listing would attract some more editors.

Pjacobi 15:36, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the problem, Pjacobi. The article states what Duesberg thinks, and says very clearly that most scientists disagree.... What's the dispute? Whig 21:25, 25 May 2005 (UTC)