Talk:Continuation War

• Talk:Continuation War/Archive 1

Contents

1 A maximalist approach 2 Taking the bull by the horn: Was Finland a Nazi country, a pro-Nazi country, a Nazi allied, or what? 3 A bunch of edits 4 Germany vs. Nazi Germany 5 Even more edits 5.1 Events of 1940 6 Concentration camps in East Karelia 7 An article of its own for the Interim Peace 8 Good Books on Continuation War 9 need of headlines and structure 10 Too long! 11 Refutes democratic war theory? 12 Finnish naming conventions

A maximalist approach

Great work, Bryan! I thought I would have time to do the same (and more), but my time was too limited and I only managed to do some background checking and writing a little. So, I don't dare to touch the article directly, so I like to present ideas I had for developing this article here.

First, could it be useful for discussion if all above Bryan's text were removed/archived from this Talk-page (the length of this page is growing, and if we plan to discuss here, it will do so even more)? What is the standard procedure in Wiki?

Second, what will be the scope of this article? Do we want to have "definition" (CW was war between F and SU) or a detailed description of the war?

What I had in mind for contents was something like:

• Introduction
• Background
  • Before the World War II
  • Molotov-Ribbendrop Pact
  • Winter War
  • After the Moscow Peace Treaty
• To the Opening of Hostilities
  • Diplomatic Activities
  • Cooperation with Germany
  • Start of Hostilities
• Finnish Offensive (1941)
  • Reconquest of Karelia of Lake Ladoga
  • Reconquest of Karelian Isthmus
  • Occupation of Eastern Karelia
  • Advancement from Northern Finland
  • Political Situation
• War in Trenches (1942-1943)
  • Military Situation
  • Political Activities
• Soviet Offensive (1944)
  • Military Buildup
  • Political Buildup
  • the 4th Strategic Offensive
  • Political Maneuvres
  • Finnish Resistance Stiffens
• Final Months and Armstice
  • Military Situation
  • Towards Armstice
• Conclusion

As you see, I'm favoring a somewhat maximalist approach here, which is perhaps not suitable for Wiki. It would also make page a little... eh... a lot longer. The positive side is that it separates military stuff, which are clearly documented and where NPOV are easily reached from political stuff, where NPOV are harder to achieve. Also it forms a clear arch from the beginning to the end of the war, better than the current structure, which suffers from simplification making it hard to put things to their context. (Example: Background: Moscow Peace Treaty -> 20's -> WWI -> Time after Winter War -> End of Winter War ->...)--Whiskey 13:38, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think there are plenty of WWW sites dedicated to WWII and the Continuation War. The approach outlined above has, in my humble opinion, exceeded the dept suitable for an international English language encyclopedia.

/ML

I think it's really hard to have too much information in Wikipedia; if necessary, some of those sections could be split off into their own articles (there are many existing examples of wars where individual battles within it have their own articles). This is interesting stuff and especially for complex matters like this it's important to be detailed. As a side bonus, that also allows us to avoid having to summarize events with potentially biased descriptions when we can just lay out the facts of what happened. Bryan 00:48, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

To /ML: With a quick search with google (first 100) I found 2 sites with more depth than _current_ version of CW and about a dozen with text copied from Wiki. ;-) Most of the others fell to the half page description, propaganda or very detailed information about specific aspect of the war (like plane types used by FAF).

Even using the index I gave it is not likely that CW would grow much bigger than Operation Market Garden. With the given index it is not possible to include whole history of Finland in context of CW, but more like telling the story what happened and why, which would be the explanation of that historic irony you worded. Naturally we should use separate articles where possible, but the sructure will still be the same, as political environment changed so much during the four years of war that current structure cannot handle it properly.

For example, what I thought would be relevant for first subchapter, Before the WWII: Finnish Jäger batallion, German defeat in WWI, nationalism in Civil War, Aunus trek, referendum demands in League of Nations for East-Karelians, Lapua movement and IKL, Academic Karelia Society (AKS). Some of these are already in the article, but taken out from their contexts. This chapter would show the general connection of Finland to Germany, her interest to East-Karelia, but also how right extremism failed to root down during that period in Finland. --User:Whiskey 21:10, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)

And if it does get too big, those subchapters can become independant articles with only summary paragraphs remaining here on this as the main page. Bryan 23:30, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, many of these topics already have wikipedia articles, and I believe it would be much more in accordance with wikipedia customs to put most of the text in these separate articles, and refer to them (briefly) in this article.

/ML

Taking the bull by the horn:
Was Finland a Nazi country, a pro-Nazi country, a Nazi allied, or what?

If the article has any major weakness, be it then that it does not properly address the issue which is the most interesting and hardest to understand intuitively for an international reader, namely Finland's affinity to fascism. Wikipedia's NPOV policy ought to be a suitable framework.

/ML

It isn't that simple. Oswald Mosleys existence did not make Britain a fascist country.. I think it was put best by one leading statesman at the time that Finland was stuck between huliganism and vandalism. The Nazies here were the huligans referred to (at the time the concentration camps did not yet exist), and the vandals referred were the communist revolutionaries in Russia. There were fascists in Finland, but Finland was not a fascist country. For instance Lapuan liike failed in the end to effect extraparlamentary power. This may have been acheived through accomodating those of their demands which gave them broader support, but that is what happens in a democracy anyway. Their populist demands were co-opted, not fulfilled by the government of the day. This is a subtle but legitimate distinction.

-- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 22:33, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)

It's hard to believe it would be too complicated to set the record straight in this article. Alluding and hinting, as I would say the article does now, don't contribute to clarity or understanding. Why not spell out, that there existed different perceptions before, during and after the war: In Russia, in Britain, in the US and of course also in Finland. On the other hand, when possible, the article must link to more appropriate articles for in-dept coverage. It's no good to make an article on the Continuation War into an article on The History of Finland in the Light of the Continuation War. :-)

May I remind about the wording I pointed out above:

Finland's survival as an independent democratic and capitalist country was made possible chiefly through Nazi-Germany's support, while the aggressor was allied to the United Kingdom and, for most of the war, the United States.

This might seem self-evident for Finns, but for non-Finns I think it is one important key to understanding Finland's position between Russia and the Baltic.

BTW, another thing I miss in the article, and in the wikipedia as a whole, is references to preventive war and pre-emptive strikes. (However, Just war is included.) In particular in the light of the last years' parallells in international politics, the picture of inter-war Finland as an aggressive expansionist country who's rulers killed thousands of workers in concentration camps and threatened millions of civilians in Leningrad is of some relevance.

/ML

Do you have a source or attribution for the perception? Please provide references. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 00:26, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)

I would say ANY book on Europe's 1930s (including auto-biographies by French and British (Churchill) statesmen) I've ever read has reflected that Soviet propaganda had been successfully exploiting this alleged fear of the mothers in Leningrad's suburbs, and that a "sensitive" solution to the problem with Finland's border running too close to Leningrad was expected from Finland's government by both Germany and other friendly countries. A perception which clearly did not resonate in Helsinki.

Also Finnish auto-biographies have been quite obvious. Fagerholm, Linkomies, Mannerheim and Paasikivi represented different perceptions, and assessed for instance the possibility to survive inside the Moscow Peace borders quite differently before the Continuation War.

And you can't, reasonably, be ignorant of the subtext in English language books on World War II, and also in most English books on Finland, at least them written in the 1950s-1970s, favoring the interpretation of WWII as a war against Fascism - with Finland on the Fascist side.

Mannerheim, Ryyti and Paasikivi (to mention only a few) are not depictured as democrats but as monarchists or opportunist pro-fascists with little regard for parliamentarism.

To put it bluntly: In a EU with 25 members, little-known Finland is easy to associate with the former WP countries. Gaining independence in 1918, with failing democracies and authoritarian/semi-fascist traditions from the inter-war years, with native quislings supporting the Nazis and then the Communists. Ambiguous wordings are easy to interpret as courtesy intended not to hurt the national self-esteem of the Finns.

However, if you with your request intended to have me to do real research, then I feel to have been treated more like CIA was treated by Cheney and Rumsfeld. I'm not going to write a mid-term paper on the subject, neither to research contemporary news papers for my thesis. :-)

/ML

My I suggest a new arctle Finland and the Axis, or something like that, so that Finland's relationship with the Nazi's can be fully explored? Seems like a topic quite in-depth enough to merit its own page. Oberiko 23:55, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't understand this article at all. The war is straightforward enough, but it's perception seems to be the subject of a lot of axe-grinding. Neither the US nor the UK declared war on Finland.

Britain did declare war, and to make matters worse, on Finland's most important national holiday, on the Independence day — in a war that according to the contemporary observers aswell as to later analysists was critical for the Finns' survival as a nation and for Finland's survival as an independent country. /Tuomas 18:16, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have never read any American histories that ever suggested that Finland didn't declare war, and ally themselves with Nazi Germany, out of sheer, and understandable, revenge on the CCCP; nor have I ever heard any suggestion that Finland was associated with or in the Warsaw Pact. I also do not understand the comment in the Intro that this war shows that democracies do declare war on each other. Since when was Stalinist totalitarianism and single-party rule considered representative democracy? Somercet 18:03, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Just to make this clear:

- Finland was never allied, as such, with Nazi Germany. - Finland cannot be pro-Nazi, at least not in the way the word is used today. There is no evidence of any discrimination of minorities, etc, that is nowadays associated with "pro-nazism". - Finland clearly was not a Nazi country (there wasnt a national socialist goverment. Period.

If Finland was pro-Nazi, then we must start calling the United States and Britain both communist and fascist, as they have been helping/allied with both types of countries.

I think the best way to put it would be to say Finland allowed to existance of Nazi troops on its territory as a defence against a Soviet offensive. Yes, I clearly have a point of view to this, but prove the above statements wrong (you can't). :)

--HJV 23:47, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

A bunch of edits

I take the bold step and make a couple of edits to the first sections. My main intention, beside a general wish to improve the article, of course, is to make it slightly less Finnocentric. The Soviet Union and the United Kingdom were parts in the conflict too, but the article as it stands at this moment, is maybe too much written from a purely Finnish perspective. By changes in the direction I propose, I hope to avoid major edits of the type Graculus and 172 contributed with last August.

In addition, I changed from typically British to American spelling.

However, I realize fully, that my edits might seem too controversial, and if so, I would propose that discussion is taken up here on the talk-page. In such a case, I have absolutely nothing against a revertion to User:Itai's version while the issues are under discussion.
--Ruhrjung 09:54, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Germany vs. Nazi Germany

People PLEASE!!!

Will you please stop that ridiculous reverting back and forth between Germany and Nazi Germany in the article!

If you don't like how it is now, please explain here why it should be changed. I, personally, think that it should be Germany unless the ideology is important in the context like when comparing democratic Finland and Nazi Germany. Otherwise we should talk Communist Soviet Union and Republican United States all the way.;-)
--Whiskey 23:18, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

I, personally, think it should be Germany/Nazi Germany if it is the physical land or the people who are referred, and Third Reich/Nazi Germany if it's the government or its agencies. Particularly the foreign politics togled by the régime changes in 1871, 1918, 1933 and 1945/48.

You must remember that Germany looked a lot different -1806, 1871, 1918, 1940, 1989, or 1991-.

France, Britain or post-medieval Russia have been much more steady. There is not the same need, and nevertheless we often differentiate between Imperial Russia–(Bolshevist Russia)–Soviet Union–Russian Federation.

As a German I'm particularly concerned by what I perceive as a much increased tendency in English language mass media of the last 2-3 years to connect the (democratic) Federal German Republic with what's obviously considered as the pariah régimes of Hitler, Honecker and Kaiser Willhelm. I can't help to recognize this as unpleasant concious or unconcious anti-German propagandisms.
--Ruhrjung 23:03, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

It seems we are quite close each other in this issue. I write mostly 'Germany' as I use 4-and-helf finger system unless I explicitly mean government. Lazy me.
--Whiskey 07:49, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Even more edits

I started putting material to background section. If you think they are not suitable here, you can revert back to what it was before. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If this is ok, I'll add other edits in the future. (I'm going sloowwww....)
--Whiskey 12:26, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

That's fine!
I know that I wasn't too active when you proposed your maximalist approach, but by now I wonder why you don't consider to designate it to separate articles with relevant names (including already existing).

One article on Finland's inter-war history would surely be great. Not the least as your contributions are relevant also for the article on the Winter War, far as I can tell.

My proposal is to try to keep the background history as short as possible, but then I wonder why you removed the following paragraph:

Then there was a vociferous minority opinion which since the 1920s had advocated the extension of Finland's territory eastwards to incorporate ethnically akin Finnic peoples under Soviet oppression. To advocates of such expansion, Finland's security policy focusing on the League of Nations, the politically akin democratic Western countries, Scandinavia, and particularly Sweden had led to a total failure. In these expansionist circles was commemorated Imperial Germany's role in the "White" government's victory over rebellious Socialists during the Civil War in Finland. Seeing the contemporary brand of European democracy as too soft on Communism, similar to in the defeated Western European countries, made an alliance with the "New Germany" all the more appealing; since there were no longer Communists in Germany.

I don't know right now (well, it's relatively easy to check, but...) if I'm responsible for that text. The content seems familiar to me. But in any case, I do not only "like" it if it's my brainchild, I find it central to the understanding of why many Finns obviously considered the security policies of the previous 5-6 years failed, and why the mutual distrust both between Moscow–Helsinki as well as between Stockholm–Helsinki grew after the Moscow Peace. After all, the security policy was supported by a broad consensus, and could equally well have been declared victorious. Russia was expelled and Finland was supported in the League of Nations, in the international opinion, by military volunteers, and also by substantial support from the Scandinavian neighbour; and Finland came out of the Winter War far better than anyone could have hoped for.

A factual and stylistic objection is that I may disagree with your understanding expressed in the meaning:

Major events of World War II, and the tides of war in general, had significant impact on the course of the Continuation War:

• Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact enabled Soviet pressure against Finland before and after Winter War and pushed Finland to search help from Germany.

First of all, the intended effect of that pact was not to push Finland to get closer to Germany, quite the contrary, the pact meant that Hitler–Ribbentrop had given up Germany's old interest in using Finland as a bridgehead to Russia.

I would rather say that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact were (increasingly) dead letters after Operation Weserübung, although of course not formally reversed. It was rather the Moscow Peace than the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that enabled Soviet pressure on Finland after the Winter War, and the pressure before the Winter War is more relevant for the article on the Winter War.

I would be tempted to revert your change, but maybe you would like to consider to explain how you think.
--Ruhrjung 22:37, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

I removed the chapter because most of it was described more extensively in new part. The disillusionment for LofN, Western democracies and Sweden came during Winter War (as described later and in Winter War) as their help was insufficient to stop Soviets. (I'll add more on that disillusionment next...). In non-socialist circles -not only in expansionist circles- there was fond feelings toward Germany because of help in Civil War, but they still considered Britain or Sweden as ideals for state (including state leadership: There hasn't been more anglophile president in Finland than Ryti, how unbelievable it is). This fondness made it more easy to change Finnish foreign policy more pro-German and do it without giving power to extreme right, which was kept outside government until December 1940 and even then had very marginal role (as their group in Finnish parliament was shrunken to 8 representatives (of 200 total). The lowest point in relations between Finland and Sweden was right before the end of Winter War, when Sweden refused right of passage of Western troops and King of Sweden recommended peace. After that there was constant efforts to improve the relations between the wars, included three times to propose alliance between Finland and Sweden, and each time Soviets trashed them. (And also more about that later...)

For major events... the Law of Unintended Consequences: M-R Pact was meant to be the division of Eastern Europe, but what both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union failed to see was that target countries had their own mind also. In summer of 1940 Finnish political leadership was in panic - mildly said. It would have done almost anything to scramble foreign support against Soviet Union. As France has surrendered and rumours of British surrender were afloat, that only left Nazi Germany as valid source when Soviet Union continuously shot down Swedish support. Moscow Peace Treaty didn't give Soviet Union the right to continue pressuring Finland after Winter War to the direction Baltic republics has gone, but M-R Pact did. I'm not happy of wording, it simplifies things a lot, but there's still a question why Finland aligned with Nazi Germany. The best answer I can find is Soviet pressure and it has roots in M-R Pact.

I'm not fully satisfied with my own text, and I'll most likely make some edits on the issue. You have a valid point for making it as a separate article, as it has some relevance to Winter War also. I plan to end the background part to November 12, when Hitler gave his refusal to Molotov's request of permission to finish Finnish question. Could we wait until I reach that before creating separate articles as we then have clearer picture of the whole thing? Naturally we have to discuss the contents of my edits before that.
--Whiskey 07:12, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Events of 1940

All right, now I'm starting the most difficult and controversial area of this issue: The time after the Moscow Peace Treaty. None of the players can be proud of their behaviour during the time, so this area is generally "forgotten" from every description of the event. If you have questions or comments please ask here, I try to answer why I wrote as I wrote. I plan to put this all in three parts.
--Whiskey 00:31, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am no expert of English, and surely I know less than you on the matter, but I am following the Wikipedia motto of boldness and propose a set of changes:

Although the peace treaty was signed, the state of war wasn't revoked. because of widening World War, difficult food supply situation and bad shape of Finnish military.

- Is there some source one can attribute that to? Was it debated at the time?

Censorship was not abolished but used to suppress critics for Moscow peace and most vocal anti-Soviet commentaries.

...but used to suppress critic of the Moscow peace treaty and the most blatantly anti-Soviet comments.

With increasing physical isolation from Western Countries, breaking the political isolation Finland suffered from Nazi Germany became major target of Finnish propaganda during summer of 1940.

After Nazi Germany's assault on Scandinavia in April (Operation Weserübung), Finland was physically isolated from her traditionally trade markets in the West. Sea routes to and from Finland were now controlled by the Kriegsmarine. The outlet of the Baltic sea was blockaded, and in the far north Finland's route to the world was an arctic dirt road from Rovaniemi to the ice-free harbour of Petsamo, from where the ships had to pass a long stretch of German-occupied Norwegian coast by the Arctic Ocean. Finland, like Sweden, was spared occupation but encircled by Nazi Germany and her Soviet ally.

Especially damaging was the loss of fertilizer imports, that together with the loss of arable land ceded in the Moscow Peace, the loss of cattle during the hasty evacuation after the Winter War, and the unfavourable weather in the summer of 1940 resulted in a drastic fall of foodstuff production to less than two thirds of what was Finland's estimated need. Some of the deficit could be purchased from Sweden, some from the Soviet Union, although delayed deliverances were then a means to exert pressure on Finland. In this situation, Finland had no alternative than to turn to Germany for help.

Finland put her hope in the fragility of the Nazi–Soviet bond, and in the many personal friendships between Finnish and German scientists, industrialists and military officers. From May 1940 Finland pursued a campaign to re-establish the good relations with Germany that had soured in the last year of the 1930s. Finnish mass media not only refrained from criticism of Nazi Germany, but also took active part in this campaign. Dissent was censored. Seen from Berlin, the contrast was stark to the annoyingly anti-Nazi press in Sweden.

From easing the coldness of Third Reich first it was easy to move later to promote closer relations with them. Propaganda in the censured press contributed to Finland's re-orientation with very measured means - both in Finland and in Nazi Germany.

From the campaign to ease the Third Reich's coldness towards Finland, it seemed a natural development to also promote closer relations and cooperation. Not the least since the much disliked Moscow Peace Treaty in clear language tried to persuade the Finns not to do exactly that. Propaganda in the censured press contributed to Finland's international re-orientation — although with very measured means.

President Kallio also asked Field Marshal Mannerheim to remain commander-in-chief and supervise reorganization of Finnish Armed Forces and fortification of new border.

The continued state of war made it possible for Field Marshal Mannerheim to remain commander-in-chief and supervise the reorganization of Finland's Armed Forces and the fortification of the new border; a task that was critically important in the unruly times.

And inside a week after the peace treaty was signed, the fortification works started along the 1200 km long Salpalinja ("Latch"-line), where focus was between Gulf of Finland and Lake Saimaa.

In less than a week after the peace treaty was signed, the fortification works started along the 1200 km long Salpalinja ("Latch line"), focused between Lake Saimaa and Gulf of Finland.

During the summer and autumn Finland received material purchased and donated during and right after the Winter War, but it took several months before Mannerheim was able to present somewhat positive assessment about the state of army.

...was able to present a somewhat positive assessment of the state of the army.

Military expenditures during 1940 rose to 45% of Finnish budget and military purchases were prioritised over civilian ones. Mannerheim's position enabled efficient management of military, but it created unfortunate "second government" which time to time clashed with civilian government during the war.

Military expenditures rose in 1940 to 45% of Finland's state budget. Military purchases were prioritised over civilian needs. Mannerheim's position and the continued state of war enabled an efficient management of the military, but it created an unfortunate parallel government that time to time clashed with the structures of civilian government.

The ongoing war between the Axis and the Western Allies had damaged Finland's import and export, blocking the main trade route via the Baltic Sea to Britain and the Commonwealth, the most important trading partners before the war. After the German occupation of Norway and Denmark the only route Finland had to world ran through one dirt road from Rovaniemi to Petsamo and through Arctic Ocean. Especially damaging was loss of fertilizer imports which together with loss of cattle and arable land and unfortunate weather of summer 1940 resulted Finnish foodstuff production fall to 60-65% of needed. Some of the deficit could be purchased from Sweden, but for rest Finland had to turn to Germany. Also Finnish industry had to search new markets and supply in and through Germany.

- chiefly duplicated above, can be removed

Then, of course, there is a need to put the different paragraphs in better order. Right now, it is obvious that your additions are put in at the top.
 :-))
Johan Magnus 14:34, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm happy if those with more skill in language check my writings. They are mostly done (very) late in the evenings and it truly is shown in the text. ;^)

For state of war, I don't have original sources with me, but at least five different sources refer this (starting from official presidental biografies in http://www.presidentti.fi/fin/henkilot/ryti.html (unfortunately only in Finnish)). (And like I said, nobody liked to dwell in this area longer than absolutely necessary, so all descriptions were as short as possible.) Kallio made the decision, but he most likely consulted Mannerheim, Prime minister Risto Ryti, Foreign minister Väinö Tanner and Minister without portfolio Juho Kusti Paasikivi. I have to check their full biografies when I visit library next time.

I like your versions and I'll modify text accordingly.

You are right that I insert my text to the top of section. As my writing progresses, I remove duplicate/obsolate paragraphs below, and hopefully we'll get consistent text as a result. --Whiskey 19:56, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm happy if those with more skill in language check my writings. They are mostly done (very) late in the evenings and it truly is shown in the text. ;^) [...] Johan Magnus 14:34, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In progress. ^_^ DocWatson42 19:54, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sorry Doc, here comes the next patch. ;-) --Whiskey 01:26, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

All right. Now all I intend to put into the background section is there. There has already been proposal for separate article for at least some of this, but we should consider putting all background stuff in a single article and refering it only with one chapter here. It would keep things focused on CW instead of general history and provide good background for those interested. For writing that chapter, I take suggestions, and volunteers to write it. (It would be better if somebody else try to write it from this text.)

There is still some missing links and dates, but they are minor fixes.

All comments are welcome. --Whiskey 21:40, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Concentration camps in East Karelia

Now, when we are talking about Finland in the Second World War, why aren't we talking about fascist measures committed by Finnish in East Karelia?

When Finns came to Soviet Karelia, troops were given orders by military command to round up Russian civilians (mostly children, women and old people) and take them to concentration camps. In those camps perished at least 2500-2600 Russian civilians because of disease and famine.

I'm just asking; what was won military and tactically by sealing helpless civilians in concentration camps? Why that act was done? My opinion is that in Finnish army were many "quislings", pro-nazi-minded people. This whole thing of Finnish guilty as occupator is thing which must be discussed.

sent by:(heikki)0:13, Jun 1, 2004 (as first-time user of this wikipedia encyclopedia).

I know I have seen such a paragraph somewhere. Maybe in this article, maybe in History of Finland; maybe it's edited away by someone, maybe it's been so for a long time — that I don't know. The issue surely merits to be covered. Depending on your energy and knowledge, the choise is between a few lines in this article or any number of lines in an article of its own. In any case: Go for it! /Tuomas 09:42, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Concentration camp has a paragraph about that. It could need more details, maybe even it's own article with links from here. -- Jniemenmaa 10:15, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

--

And I'm just asking what the hell do your personal views of Finns as malicious people not letting the Russians staying in the homes owned by Finns, and moving them from there to camps? What do you think would have been the better option out of the ones below: - let the russian civilians (living in houses built and owned by finns) stay in their houses (did France let the Germans in France stay in the French people's houses after the terrotory had been returned to France? Or Poland?) - shoot them? - move them to temporary camps just like everyone else did in the war (I know this stuff. My grandfather got moved to a Russian concentration camp from Petsamo in November 1939). -leave them in the middle of the battlefield?

Please also explain why the fact that Russian civilians being transfered (from Finnish houses) to temporary camps make the country fascist? Was USA fascist by moving Japanese-Americans to camps? Is USA currently fascists, as similar operations have been done in Iraq?

"In those camps perished at least 2500-2600 Russian civilians because of disease and famine." -> source? How about those who perished in Russian camps? The ones that died in Russian camps were taken from homes their families had lived in for a long time (sometimes hundreds of years). In what happened in Continuation War, we're only talking of a time around 1 year of these people living in the area.

"This whole thing of Finnish guilty as occupator is thing which must be discussed." -> Are you an occupator if you take back land that belongs to you? Please get your facts straight. The land had been possessed by Finland for ages, it was merely taking its own back.

I do not get what is running through people's minds when thinking of Finland as an evil invader when taking back its own land. Was France also fascist as it took its own land back from Germany? And I doubt the French allowed the Germans that had moved to German occupied France stay there.--HJV 00:00, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

An article of its own for the Interim Peace

This article is in its current shape very much focused on the pre-history of the war. This is not at all uninteresting, and not really irrelevant, but would it maybe be better to split off much of the Background material to articles with less misleading titles, as for instance Finland before World War II and the Interim Peace? --Johan Magnus 10:19, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This article has always been focused on pre-history and foreign political developments of the war, never on the war itself. I have presented my idea of the contents of the article in the beginning of the current talk, and it should contain a lot more information about the war itself. I don't oppose splitting the article to separate ones, but they should be connected to the Continuation War somehow, like Finland before World War II (Continuation War) and Interim peace (Continuation War) as they concentrate exclusively on how those areas affect to Continuation War and miss all social and political development of the time, which are important if history is considered as whole, but which produce unnecessary noise for those interested about Continuation War. --Whiskey 18:55, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. But I think the articles should be written in such a way that they fit into the History of Finland-series. So, it shood look like this:

• Finland before World War II, about the events leading to the Winter War
• Winter War, about the actual war
• Interim Peace (not a good name obviously), about the events leading to the Continuation War
• Continuation War, about the war
• Finland after World War II, etc..

So the current chapters "After the Moscow Peace Treaty" and "Coordination with Germany" could be moved to Interim Peace and only a summary should be left here. The chapter "Before World War II" could be moved to Finland before World War II with corresponding text from Winter War. Is this acceptable? I do not really see why we need Finland before World War II (Continuation War)? -- Jniemenmaa 08:23, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think that a good idea, because if we take for example Finland before World War II, it would include a lot of information not relevant to Continuation War, like torppari-legistature, prohibitionary liquor law, great depression, end of language strife, etc. just for what has happened between WWI and WWII. The end result will be too little focused that accidental reader could find relevant information if he is interested only about Continuation War. Which means that the summary has to pick and explain shortly relevant events, making the text same that is now in the article. --Whiskey 18:30, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

All right, that is about what I intend to write about the interim peace between the Winter War and the Continuation War. I think it would be practical to put everything between "After the Moscow Peace" and "Conclusion" to the separate article, Interim Peace between Winter War and Continuation War (Could be used in History of Finland) and use "Conclusion" to hold summary about the issue (and rename it). I have tried to produce as neutral text as possible, but I guess my Finnishness is clear, so could someone non-Finn please check the text for NPOV in mind (Johan Magnus? Ruhrjung? ??) --Whiskey 00:43, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good Books on Continuation War

I'd like to introduce new chapter where those interested for Continuation War can find more information about good books on the issue. Feel free to add your own favorites!

Jatkosodan Historia I-VI (History of the Continuation War I-VI)-The definite source from the Finnish side.

Suomen Sota 1941-1945 I-XI (War of Finland 1941-1945)-The earlier version of previous

Jatkosodan synty (Birth of Continuation War), by Mauno Jokipii -Very detailed description of the activities between the Winter War and the Continuation War

need of headlines and structure

Please see Continuation War/temp for an idea how the last section under Background could be made easier to read on the screen. --Johan Magnus 00:26, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good! With wikipedia:boldness I move that to the article with a minor change (combining the two last sections). It can always be reverted if I've been too bold! /Tuomas 04:31, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It looks definitely better now. Thanks! I wasn't fully satisfied with Finnish-German rappoachment before, as Finland wasn't so eager to work with Germans right after Winter War, but only when other options failed, that is why I modified it a little. Also, someone should write a little bit in the History of Finland the problem newly independent state faced when independence was gained and secured from Bolshevist Russia and Imperial Germany, both at odds with victors of the war, Great Britain and France. Especially as Whites in the Russian Civil war refused to recognize Finnish independence. -- Whiskey 08:12, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I made the entire section "After the Moscow Peace Treaty" to be a section equally leveled with "Background" and "The Road to War". I hope I don't cause any confusion by this. Unfortunately, I made a minor reshuffling at the same time, and now it turns out that it is somewhat complicated to see my rather moderate changes of the text. I apologize for this! /Tuomas 10:58, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Too long!

I came to this page for a quick overview of the war and its context, and it's taken me about 20 minutes (I think) to read up to half of the article, and the war hasn't even started yet! The article is great, but it's more than twice the suggested maximum size (32k). Is there a possibility that someone can create detailed articles where the info on various subtopics should go? Junes 17:23, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are right, and I think people are realizing this, but it was or remains prioritized to get a coherent article first, and to cut it up later... and, unfortunately, we are generally somewhat slow and rather few (and some have been scared away by ...well, let's not get too much into details). I would be happy if you could sit on your fingers for yet another year and resist your urge to split it up in parts.

 :-) /Tuomas 18:01, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Refutes democratic war theory?

The article states in the introduction that "Although the Continuation War was fought in the periphery of World War II, and the engaged troops were relatively few, the history of this war is intriguing as it challenges much of the conventional wisdom on the World War. Not the least, it refutes the popular theory that democratic countries don't wage war against each other.

I fail to see how the Continuation War refutes the democratic war theory (the theory that democracies don't war on each other). This would seem a severe exaggeration given that though the UK and Finland may have officially been at war with each other during World War II; it was a result of alliances with other nations and as far as I am aware they didn't actually engage each other. The most you could say is that is a minor exception to the theory; I suspect most historians would say it is an interesting though insignificant point with regard to the theory.

I previously amended this point myself and was reverted; so I've raised this here on the talk page. :ChrisG 16:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's a matter of interpretation, of course, and it may seem a minor exception for countries that weren't struck by the exception, but such an attitude may also have a ring of Great Power Arrogance to it. The exception might be small or big, but an exception it is nevertheless. It was hardly insignificant for the victim. --Johan Magnus 21:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Continuation War is commonly used as an example to refute the democratic war theory, and that's why it should be mentioned in an article. For Britain, Continuation War was war of choice, as there was no mandatory reason to declare war to Finland: the US didn't declare war. So blaming alliances doesn't work.

The alliance theory also shakes the very foundations of the whole theory, as in there the alliance with undemocratic nation is valued more than peace with other democratic nation and that democratic nation would be ready to sell other democratic nation to the mercy of undemocratic ally. --Whiskey 22:48, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is of course an exception; but it does not REFUTE the theory. Especially given the rather crucial distinction between Britain declaring war and actively waging war.  :ChrisG 21:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Exceptio probat regulam The exception we talk here is big enough to hit dogmatism of democratic war theory: the theory has to be modified to fit this exception. The distinction you mention is not so crucial, as Britain (and US) provided open material support to Soviet Union to fight Finland, as many western made shot down planes made obvious. At the same time the declaration of war closed Finnish contacts, both commercial, military and political, to Britain and the Commonwealth. The criminal analogy would be providing guns and getaway car to bank robber while fully aware of his intentions. --Whiskey 21:50, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Finnish naming conventions

In geographic locations Finnish names typically contain the type of the location. It means that as järvi means lake in Finnish, the names of the most lakes contain järvi as part of the name. Or rivers contain joki in their names. When I write "Lake Jänisjärvi", it feels like writing "Lake Lake Superior" or "River Aurajoki" (Flows through Turku) feels like using "River River Thames". You bet it makes me feel irritated... --Whiskey 12:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agree!

There was a discussion on this in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers.

See Talk:River Vuoksi for a somewhat similar discussion.

/Tuomas 13:12, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)