Talk:Causes of World War II

Contents

1 Scrap of Silesia 2 Thing to do/Goals 3 Anti-semitism 4 Changes 5 Causes or blinds? 6 American expansionism/protectionism 7 What about...

Scrap of Silesia

I think that naming "part" for Polish Upper Silesia after WW1 is unapropriate for 3204 km2 out of 45 000 km2. I proposed "scrap" but obviously it was not accepted. Please propose better name. Cautious 09:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thing to do/Goals

• Improve anti-semitism section to everyone's satisfaction
• Expand causes of the war in Asia

Hi, I created this page because I felt that in no one place in Wikipedia were the causes of the war listed completely. I also noticed in the discussion on the World War II page about adding a section on causes, as the section entitled, Preliminaries doesn't seem to do it justice. Also, there ARE several articles with long titles i can't seem to remember that nobody who didn't know they were there could find anyway. Please feel free to make changes and to make additions! (That's what the site's for anyway!) --naryathegreat 21:42, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

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I think this needs to be linked into the series of articles on WW2. Secretlondon 01:32, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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I hope linking it to the Categories page for World War II (which I just figured out) helps. Also, I've been creating pages for things people might type in like causes of world war ii instead of Causes of World War II and redirecting them, which i learned thanks to secretlondon!

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Anti-semitism

The article is really needed. But it also needs a lot more work. I studied the causes of world war I and world war II for years at two universities. The themes presented here are certainly a great start with the exception of anti-semitism. We would have had WW II even without anti-semitism, so presenting it as an important factor, as a cause for the start is very misguided. It certainly was a useful tool for the nazis to present their particularily warped view of History, and to help them justify their giving the first spark of life (or death?) to World War II. This means it should be presented as a tool for the causes, not a cause. Other themes are also a bit simplified but not as much as anti-semitism. AlainV 05:26, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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AlainV-I understand your concern with anti-semitism, and if you want to make a Tools for the Causes of World War II page go ahead, but I think that prejudice towards Jews caused Hitler to come to power, so it cause world war ii, in a way. --naryathegreat 17:59, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

IMO Hitler would've come to power anyway, if not playing the "Jews backstabbed Germany in WWI" tune, then it would be bolshevism, capitalism or any other easy-to-sell idea. At the same time it's hard to argue that Germany started the WWII to kill Jews or because the Jews existed. Halibutt 22:58, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC)

ON the contrary, it is quite simple. Hitler wanted lebensraum, which included the wholesale destruction of the peoples involved, especially the Jews. Read Mein Kampf, as it lays out his plans as he had them in 1923, which he followed. By the way, no matter what you say, Anti-Semitism contributed to the start of World War II. That is the purpose of this page, not to explain Hitler's fascination with Anti-semitism, there is a page for that. And please, do not use this page as a place to assault me because you are angry with my views in other articles, discuss it on my talk page

Oh dear, oh dear... I'm not referring to your opinions and accusations expressed on other pages. What I was trying to say was that it's the lebensraum ideology was one of the reasons for WWII, not the Anti-Semitism per se. Anti-Slavism was as much important, especially that of the territories directly incorporated into the "greater Reich" most did not have any Jewish minorities. Poles and other Slavs were expelled or killed instead. Halibutt 09:11, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

Tell me then, why does this bother you? Are you a Jew? I have never seen an article talk about the causes behind world war ii and not mention anti-semitism. So what if it was indirect, it still had an effect. And anti-slavism is little more than a corollary to Nazism, anti-semitism is much more deeply rooted.

Yes, I am a Polish Jew. And a Slav as well. And I still see no reason for war in Hitlers anti-semitism. Mein Kampf is one thing, the practice is another. The reasons for war with Poland (after all that's how the whole damn WWII started) were similar to those you described in the article (and thanks for that, the article is great). However, neither in Hitlers speeches nor in official propaganda the anti-semitism was not even half as important as the "Versailles bastard rhetoric" and "German minority threatened". The "Jewish bolshevism being a threat to Germany" campaign was started later, just before the Barbarossa. And note that the WWII started 2 years earlier. Also, if Anti-Semitism was as important as Lebensraum or German minorities, then why most of the horrors of the Holocaust started well after 1941 and not right after the invasion of Poland or France? Halibutt 20:31, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's anti-semitic rhetoric began long before world war ii, think of Kristallnacht, for instance. Many of Hitler's pre-war speeches are denunciations of "international Jewry", well before he even came to power. His coming to power definately caused World War II, so it is safe to say that, at least, it indirectly caused world war ii. I am not anti-semitic and am not including this because I dislike Jews, I have never been able to understand anti-semitism. I consider Jews to be God's (I AM WHO I AM, not Allah) chosen people. So please do not consider me to dislike you because you are Jewish (or Polish, I've done several reports on the country in great depth, and I am not anti-slav). However, I have never heard anti-slavism used in any other context accept that when it is attached to Hitler or Nazism.--naryathegreat 20:59, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

For God's sake, I'm not accusing you of anything! And let it remain that way. Our disagreement is of a factual nature and that I find highly acceptable.

As to the influence of anti-semitism on the outbreak of WWII - I'm perfectly conscient that Hitlers anti-Semitism started long before 1939. However, I still do not see a clear connection between his views on Jews (and his internal anti-Jewish policies in the thirties) and the attack on Poland or France. Perhaps his anti-Semitic views helped him gain power in Germany, but that would mean that Anti-Semitism is one of the Causes of NSDAP comming to power, not one of the Causes of World War II.

Current version of the article explains what is anti-semitism in Europe and how come it's different from that of present-day Egypt or Palestine. However, it doesn't explain what was so important in Jews or Jewry that Hitler decided to attack Poland. Neither the official propaganda reasons given by the Nazis themselves (most notably Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler in their 1939 speeches) nor any other publication I've ever read state that "September 1, 1939 happened because of Jews". If Hitler did not attack Poland or France because of Jewish money, Jewish bolsheviks or Jewish anti-German conspiracies - then why?

Also, I have to admit that anti-Slavism was rather a continuation of the Lebensraum rhetoric, not a cause of WWII. It was not started to "teach those darn Poles a lesson". Just like it wasn't started in order to exterminate the Jews. Such ideas came to light much, much later. Halibutt 00:08, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

But isn't it important to note that the causes of the war are closely related to the causes of hitler coming to power and the rise of fascism? I note this at the beginning of the section. And anti-semitism is much deeper than just Hitler or nazism. I state in the section that it had been around for ages (oh my goodnesss...i just used a british phrase, what on earth is the world coming to?) At this point, I don't understand your complaint. Do you want to delete the section on anti-semitism? Do you want to just revise it? Also, here is a quote: "He [Hitler] denied he had wanted war in 1939, and claimed it had been brought on by foreign leaders who were [in Hitler's words->] 'or Jewish origin or worked for Jewish interests.' He placed the [in Hitlers words->] 'sole responsibility' for all the deaths on the Jews." (How Hitler Could Have Won World War II--Bevin Alexander--no, I don't support or like Hitler, the book follows the German warpath and chronicles their mistakes--it specifically denounces the Holocaust--just putting out fires before they start)--naryathegreat 01:34, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

No, the Anti-Semitism part should stay, but it should be elaborated a bit to describe precisely that it was not a direct cause of WWII (like the Versailles or the German minorities) but rather an indirect one. Also, I believe it would do the article some good to add a piece of information on two different ways the A-S was used by the Nazis - as a state ideology and as an excuse. Do you get the idea or should I elaborate this thought a little? And the book you mention is great. Too bad it's unavailable in where I live and I had a chance of reading only a few dozen pages... Halibutt 04:34, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

Changes

I changed several statements which were gramatically incorrect; Space Cadet and Irredenta please take the time to review your changes, especially ones as small as these, and do not make contributions if you are not fluent in standard written english.--naryathegreat 22:32, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

I modified one sentance talking about the strength of anti-semitism in modern Europe becuase the question of modern European Anti-semitism is the subject of debate currently. I felt that such a statement should take into account the debate. As it was written originally, it seemed to me to imply that anti-semitism is nearly as strong and prevalent in Europe as it was during Hitler's reign which is debatable. --Cab88 23:11, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm...didn't mean to imply that...sorry if that's how it came across. Anywho, thanks for contributing!--naryathegreat 16:02, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)

I have just modified some disturbing edits by User:24.157.65.162, which added some unneeded POV. Also, he/she seems to be a poor speller. They also added a sentence about the Versailles treaty in a place it made no sense. It seems, by trying to make it NPOV to their own satisfaction, they inadvertently introduced POV (next time my words will not be so kind).--naryathegreat 14:02, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

Causes or blinds?

I can't believe nacionalism, antisemitism etc. were causes of world war II. These were the attendant phenomena, ideological connivancers or rather excuse-to-hands for beginning war. These were very important, motivating people to involved in it, but they are maybe effects, conclusions; expressing these as causes is so vulnerable. The real causes are in the following part of that article. Gubbubu 14:44, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Good grief, what do you people want, a "attendant phenomena, ideological connivancers or rather excuse-to-hands for beginning world war ii" page? Where else would you list them. Every credible source I can find points to these as underlying causes of the war.--naryathegreat 01:56, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

I think "real", material causes should be mentioned first, and these "imaginary" ideas cuold be called as "secondary causes". For example, do you know about some publicated results of statistical researches on the correlation of nacionalism and wars? Please give me the sources. I don't, despite of that it's not hard to think these are really correlated, but if they are really, even not sure they are in direct causal relation. Maybe nacionalism not causes war, maybe war causes nacionalism :-)), or maybe they have got a collective common cause, etc. This metaphisical problem is important only because it is not lucky to conceive war to be the consequence of ideological motivations („the fight of Angelic Bush and evil arabs etc.”, „the fight of Hitler the Great and evil Jews” and so on) – maybe the first step to legitimate them. I think ideologies are not real causes, but I've only remarked something, this is a free website, and you are uncomitted to respect me. Gubbubu 09:33, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Flagnabit, nationalism was one of the biggest causes. In the interim, I've changed that header to Underlying Causes of World War II. You can't say Nationalism wasn't because you can't say Japan's leadership or the Nazis didn't play a large part in starting the war. History is all about underlying causes, most of the major causes of wars, such as the Versailles Treaty, are indirect. And who did that to the Anti-semitism paragraph? That really is important. It caused world war ii by promoting support for hitler and the radical agenda he propagated.--naryathegreat 13:39, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

In my language there exists an expression "elbeszélni egymás füle mellett" (~~ "to speak along beside each other's ear"). It means two person talking to each other, but at last one of them doesn't conceive what the other expressed (in spite of he heard that). Is there a similar expression in English (for example, "dialog of deaf men"? You haven't understand me enough, or haven't read me careful, or my performance to representing my thoughts in English is too poor. Please (if you have time, motivation, etc.) try to be a bit more philosophical, and view things in general. The body of my speech was about: "If something can't be a cause (in general), it can't be the the cause of a war, then." But don't trouble yourself, I've only aimed to help, and as I said before, it is your task to decide respecting me or not. Gubbubu 19:30, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

+(When I said "imaginary causes" I wanted to express "spiritual" or "intellectual" etc., not to say they were imaginations, but to they were secondaries (causes of causes).

Sorry if I was rude. Your english does take a little getting used to, but then, so does that of my Korean aunt! In answer to your question, there is no saying per se (per se means "exactly like that"--I wonder if you knew that?). I get the gist of it however. I understand the nature of your complaint, but not any solutions. Changing the title to Underlying causes is better, I think, I would be willing to change it to Long-range causes if need be, but I tend to like the status quo (which means as it is). By the way, what is your native toungue? I don't recognize it (and I pride myself on recognizing languages, even ones I have only the briefest knowledge of).--naryathegreat 02:41, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

I thank your reply and I don't stick to any changes on the article, I've only raised a question on some possible problems. My original language is hungarian, but I understand latin a bit, too (as have been being a biologist students for some years, I learnt it). I'm here to trim magyar-english and english-magyar interlang links, to nag in some articles what haven't been drawn as me (The Possessive Of Truth:-) like, and last but not least, to learn some English. Gubbubu 15:37, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

American expansionism/protectionism

Why was the following passage removed?

Attitudes in the United States varied, but for various reasons the United States had expanded its presence in the Pacific quite significantly between 1898 and the 1930s. Many in the United States had an interpretation of Manifest Destiny that saw the United States expanding ever westward. With the annexation of Hawaii, Guam, and the Phillippines this was certainly one of the activities of the USA. Japan felt threatened by this perceived expantion, especially when the United States began building up its naval presence in the Pacific with the construction of a base at Pearl Harbor and the Panama Canal. Many Americans at the time were also quite racist toward the Japanese which was a further irritant in relations. For example, California passed laws banning Japanese or Chinese nationals from owning land there. Also, President Wilson had opposed the inclusion of a clause stating the equality of different races at the founding of the League of Nations. This hypocricy angered many Japanese liberals and helped turn this otherwise sympathetic element of society against the United States.

I think that American expansion into the pacific and their attitudes toward the Japanese are an important aspect of the causes of WWII in the Pacific. If there are factual errors in the above passage then lets hear about them, or if they are irrelevant I'd like an explanation of why. Simply folding the above into the idea that the Japanese were afraid of the US because of some economic sanctions is an oversimplification. The relationship between Japan and the US is the dominant one in the explanation of the Pacific War and an article on the Causes of the war should have a fairly in depth exploration of the idea. Thanks,

Peregrine981 17:12, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't say it was unimportant, I said move it under the Fear of America section. We don't need several sections about different concerns the japanese had about america, only one. Also, the particular facts you choose are rather odd. I don't think laws concerning japanese in america had any real effect on the decision to attack pearl harbor.--naryathegreat 21:40, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

I suppose we could put it under "Fear of America" but I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate headline... I'll have to try to think of a better one.

I included the Californian laws and general american attitudes because they were well known in Japan and quite unpopular. They turned off many more liberally minded Japanese who became disillusioned with American ideals because of the hypocrisy displayed in the US toward them. Its the same with the League of Nations which was dominated by the west, often rebuffing the Japanese, even when they tried to play by western rules. This is one of the reasons that militarism was able to take such a strong hold in the Japanese establishment. Liberals could not argue convincingly that they could work with the US or other western powers.

I also thought it was important to include information that might explain some of the Japanese fears a bit better than simply their dislike of sanctions applied after they had already started a war. I'll put some of it back in later. No time now.

Perhaps we should look at moving away from the simple lists in this article as they can easily oversimplify a complex subject. I'm not deadset on this, but it seems to me that it might save us a lot of trouble in terms of "headlines" and heirarchy, as well as giving it a more credible look. Just a thought.

Peregrine981 23:36, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

Much better. Although I can't say I've really ever heard of that being an issue (and I don't believe anybody would have spoken up in Japan regardless of the laws America passes) that doesn't mean it didn't happen. As to the lists, I don't really know how to do it in seperate sections, they're kind of small as they are and I think it would look stunted outside of the bulleted list thing. I chose it at first so that we wouldn't have to worry about that problem.--naryathegreat 13:35, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't know that the Imperial Japanese military decided, in part, to attack Hawaii (the USA) because of some California State laws. I would like to see a translated Japanese source on that. Also, I would like to know what the land ownership laws were in Japan. For example, in regards to Koreans and Chinese. If "liberals" in Japan would have been satisfied of certain changes in California laws, how much clout would those "liberals" have had in Racist Imperial Japan? The sentence about California should be deleted as irrelevant. Whyerd 18:29, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

American property ownership laws were obviously not on the top of Japanese military planners' minds when they attacked Pearl Harbor. The point of the passage is to demonstrate in part why so much friction existed between the two nations. I have read, specifically in 1919 by Margaret MacMillan, that the California laws alienated large portions of Japanese "liberal" opinion, weakening their support for peaceful coexistance with the US, allowing militaristic people to control policy, therefore leading to war. Liberals would have had more clout in imperial japan, which experimented with democracy, if their arguments weren't undermined, in part, by anti-Japanese US policies. Certainly there was racisim in Japan, but there had also been real admiration for the US, especially prior to WWI. Can we say that American racism "caused" the war, no. But it played a role in creating the climate that allowed the war to occur. US policies toward Japan, are worth pointing out in an article that deals with a war primarily between the two countries. Peregrine981 21:57, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

I've done some research, even looking at the passages from MacMillan's book ("Six Months..."). Indeed, I could imagine that the California laws would have been a source of disallusionment. It was also a shame that democratic forces weren't able to establish themselves in Japan. Whyerd217.230.186.135 13:39, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What about...

-Social Depression/Loss of Life from WWI -Ethnic Diversity in Europe -Instablity of New Governments -Alliance Systems within WWI -Cost of War Effort (ties in to Great depression) -Dawes Plan/reperations -Principles of the Aryan Race

Can't elaborate much but those were some major causes that maybe someone else could go into detail about.