Talk:Catholic

Contents

1 2004 2 Catholic/Catholicism 3 Protestants who do not consider themselves catholic? 4 KHM03 inserts his own definition first

2004

I have tried to improve this page but it still does not read fluently --BozMo 07:28, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I do not particularly like the "rightly or wrongly" in the last paragraph. It goes without saying the every one who believes something believes it "rightly or wrongly and inclusion for this particular case looks POV --(talk to)BozMo 10:36, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Fair article (in muddy waters). Good. But I find the last paragraph ("Many Protestant..." -till- "The Orthodox churches of course, agree. ") a little misleading: It seems to imply that Roman Catholics believe that the Pope is the head of the universal Body of Christ; they (we) don't. The Church (in its most profound/mystical sense) is a Body; in that sense, the Head is just Christ. The pope is the head of the bishops, and hence the head of the Church as institution (divine institution, granted). The paragraphs seems to echo some anti-catholic prejudices and attacks eg. http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Scr/hoc.htm which purposedly confounds the two analogical -but different- uses of the term 'head'. The page above indeed links to out of context prases from CV 2; but if one reads the entire page http://www.cin.org/v2church.html one can find 'The Head of this Body is Christ ...He is the head of the Body which is the Church.'--Leonbloy 17:40, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

However, the quotes, taken from the documents of Vatican I and Vatican II, clearly speak for themselves on the matter:

"… the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ, the visible Head of the whole Church …" Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter III, § 18

"Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant... let him be anathema." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 1, § 6

"… the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church…." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 3, § 1

"The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians…." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 4, § 2

This should be merged w Catholicism. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 06:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

For future reference, if/when this is ever discussed, note incipient comment on Talk:Catholicism#Organization. I would say that it is basically the case that since "c/Catholic" and "Catholicism" are words with separate entries in dictionaries, and do not entirely overlap in scope, it is worthwhile to have separate entries here as well. In particular, Catholicism is the term for the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church, whereas "catholic" has a couple of other uses. Also, as a matter of etymology and history, the reasons for particular uses of the word "c/Catholic" as a word merit separate coverage to the extent that they are not covered elsewhere. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 11:24, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Catholic/Catholicism

Catholic, Catholicism and Roman Catholic Church are separate ideas that can stand alone as separate articles. The problem we find is that these articles have overlapping information. The solution is not to merge them but to rewrite the articles correctly so that pertinent information is found in the article it belongs to. --Gerald Farinas 04:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we're agreed that the articles might need work but a merge is wrong... removing tag... any huge obhection and you can re-add it I'm sure gren 12:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a weak and flawed article. It should IMHO be deleted another and whatever accurate information there is here (and I don't think it is much) transferred to the far superior Catholicism article. FearÉIREANN 21:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is worth keeping. "Catholic" and "Catholicism" are two different concepts with some overlap but not enough to justify merging them into one article. --Colenso 18:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is definitely worth keeping, but there are problems with it the way it is. It keeps rehashing what denominations call themselves so that it is confusing and thus seems somewhat circular or redundant in structure. Perhaps some references are needed and it could be more factual and less contentious? JMK

Protestants who do not consider themselves catholic?

"Some Protestant Christian Churches, avoid using the term completely." I can't think of one Protestant denomination that would disavow this label. Does anyone know of one? --Doc Glasgow 00:29, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Afrikaner Calvinism is one example. --Colenso 19:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

And the Free Presbyterian Church. And most small evangelical groups, etc. Many born again Christian groups believe that they and they alone are the real church of Christ and everyone else isn't. In no way can that view be interpreted as catholic (ie, universal). It is mainstream christian groups, specifically those who believe in the apostolic succession of bishops, who believe that there is a broad catholic/universal church of Christians, subdivided into denominations. Fundamentalist protestantism holds different views. Some accept the 'broad church with divisions' idea. Others believe that they alone are the successors to the original church and that no-one else is really christian at all. Some believe that there were moments before them when isolated others (Luther, Calvin, etc) appeared with true christian beliefs, only for their 'churches' to lose touch with true christianity, with christianity eventually disappearing until they appeared in modern times. FearÉIREANN\^(talk) 16:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church (USA) are two denominations which do not generally uphold apostolic succession (although some UMs do), but without question consider themselves catholic. Probably, most mainline denominations do. KHM03 16:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The general rule is that all denominations that profess the Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed and its variants in their worship services consider themselves catholic. --Gerald Farinas 16:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I think we need to keep this article - revised a bit - since, as others have already stated, most Christians do consider themselves catholic in the purest sense of the term (i.e., part of the universal Christian Church; part of Christendom). That's not very surprising, is it? KHM03 15:49, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I came here to find out what "catholic" in ters of the Nicene Creed meant. This needs to be a separate article from Catholicism.

KHM03 inserts his own definition first

The term can refer to the notion that all Christians are part of one Church, reagrdless of denominational divisions. This "universal" interpretation is mentioned in the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed.

• My first objection is that this has not been discussed here and it is certainly a matter of controversy.
• Is there a citation for this interpretation as being the first or primary definiton of Catholic?
• Isn't this equivalent of defining all who profess the Nicean Creed to be Catholic? Is this the intent of what is being asserted here?

My own sense of what small "c" catholic means is redundant to this section already in the article:

Early Christians used the term to describe the whole undivided Church, the word's literal meaning is universal or whole. When divisions arose within the Catholic Church, the Church fathers and the historic creeds used it to distinguish the mainstream body of orthodox Christian believers from those adhering to sects or heretical groups.

Perhaps 'historic creeds' should be modified to read 'historic creeds such as the Nicean Creed'. This is being discussed in contemplation of reverting KMH03's addition. patsw 13:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I certainly meant no offense; I mentioned it first simply because it's the most "general" and "vague" definition, with each definition following increasingly narrow. The attempt was to be as NPOV and "encyclopedic" as possible. Peace, KHM03 13:45, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, a quick glance at Merriam-Webster's Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/) reveals these definitions:

• 1 a often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal
  • b often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it
  • c capitalized : ROMAN CATHOLIC
• 2 COMPREHENSIVE, UNIVERSAL; especially : broad in sympathies, tastes, or interests

So, it would seem that the definition which I placed first is acceptable given this source. Again, my intent was not to offend...I'm actually surprised that this edit is viewed as controversial (to be honest, I still don't see the controversy present in it). My intent was to be as broad and NPOV as possible, and as ecumenical as possible, from a Christian perspective. Hope this helps! KHM03 14:17, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)