Talk:Antisocial personality disorder
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How does the page psychopathy relate to this entry? Nixdorf 16:02, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
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Freudian
Can the Freudian refrence be removed, it is not valid or valuable in modern psycology. Freudian theory is out of place in serious discussion of psycological disorders. June 10 2005
Fictional Psychopaths need revision
The list of fictional psychopaths needs to be broken up. Alex ("A Clockwork Orange") is a relatively realistic portrayal of a psychopath (intelligent, impulsive, remorseless), while criminal masterminds like Hannibal Lecter are less so. Michael Myers ("Halloween") doesn't fit either definition. -- Unknown
Also, the article seems to jump from a decent description of APD to a list of psychopaths. Perhaps term consistency should be applied? -- Taral 18:12, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- What about James Bond? Wouldn't he fit in? I know that the book and movie Bonds are different...
- I think it is interesting in the American Psycho movie, where Bateman actually tries to warn some people about hanging out with him, as if he actually cares about them, but believes himself he cannot be held responsible for his actions.
- Is Raskolnikov correct? From the Wikipedia article: "He murders a pawnbroker with an axe, with the intention of using her money for good causes and following his theory of a "superman" who is above morality. However, his plan goes wrong, and he kills the pawnbroker's sister to avoid detection. He finds only a little money, which he then hides. Tormented by guilt, he then suffers a mental collapse and confesses."
- I thought about the Batman enemy "The Joker," but maybe he doesn't care THAT much about charms and his outer appearance... =S
APD poorly defined, like all psychology.
Call it partisan wrangling, but “occasionally this even leads to improvements in the article”, “So there's a fair degree of tolerance, and most Wikipedians succumb to a bit of wrangling from time to time”. There should be a section on all psychiatric pages in the Wiki that states the criticism the concept receives.
"Psychopath". "Hannibal Lecter". "Mass Murder". "Sniper Team with Transvestite Ghille". "Gay, Honorable Air Force Pilot Using Electronic Countermeasures". All psychopaths. The pilot uses "swarm" tactics, because he enters into territory that may contain the enemy, then shoots the enemy instinctively while calling in reinforcements, trying to survive. He never has to make much of a plan, "failing" to do so. His use of electronic countermeasures amounts to deceitfulness. He suffers from homosexuality, a mental illness, according to the World Health Organization (pre 1992).
The snipers have made a home for themselves underground, waiting patiently and justifiably months or even years for the target. The climate (both meteorologically and tactically) is extremely hostile. They work in shifts, and in a futile response to the boredom they wear "conventional" drag while not at the periscope, and then at the periscope, they wear preposterous pink, purple, and orange ghille. They cannot act on any plan they might make, so they "fail" to make one. Deceitfully, fake periscope lenses were airdropped all over the countryside.
Failure to conform to social norms or lawful behaviors: Homosexuality, transvestism.
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure: Electronic countermeasures, underground chamber, airdropping periscope lenses.
Irresponsibility, impulsivity or failure to plan ahead: Never having to make much of a plan, "failing" to do so.
Irritability and “aggression” (meaning violence), as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults: Just war. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others: Just war with courage. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt or stolen from another: Just war.
-Anonymonster
- Whoa. Does the text above strike anyone else as slightly strange? -- Anon 09:41, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that the above is an argument for the natural evolution of APD as a survival strategy. -- Taral 18:19, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Well, first of all, I am Anonymonster; I made the comment.
- Second, why is "slightly strange" in quotation marks in Anon's comment? My views do need lots of imagination to listen to, if that’s what you mean. Then there's nothing "slightly" strange about it. If you mean literal, specific logical fallacy, then please say what and where it is.
- And to respond to Taral’s comment, the text should have been clearer. The text was not meant to say that APD is natural nor simply a survival strategy. It was meant to say that the way that the intuitive and literal concepts of “psychopath” relate is so … “hypocritical”, perhaps, that the relation is stretched beyond imagination. Wikipedia is not a soapbox of course. But if the concept is nonsensical beyond the point that it can be said to exist, there should at least be a Diagnostic Issues section.
- Involuntary commitment with diagnostic issues like these ... now that is strange. Let’s see … maybe “psychopath” is just someone that a psychiatrist wants treated. Or maybe it’s something else. Remember, however far fetched, that propaganda lies never really make sense when used to cover something neither actually justified nor easily falsely justified. FET 05:08, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think Anonymonster makes an interesting point, but I disagree with his/her analysis. The key concept here is the social frame of reference: a diagnosis of APD is fundamentally dependent on social context. If the behaviour of a person with APD is not transgressing social norms, it can hardly be called anti-"social" !
In combat, behaviours that could lead to a diagnosis of APD in civil society might well be lauded, even after the individual returns from the battlefield. Indeed, warriors who lie, cheat, kill and maim with gusto (assuming they successfully do this to the "enemy") have traditionally been held in high social regard, both during and after the conflict. Meanwhile, contemporaneous civilian murderers have been pursued to the full extent of the law (viz. WWII experience in London).
In a similar vein, higher-functioning individuals with APD can sometimes sublimate their drives in a commercial environment ("the corporate psychopath") to win great estime and financial reward.
In neither of the above cases would a diagnosis of APD be "wrong", just irrlevant.
- Well, it's not just hypocritical on immoral actions, but moral ones too.FET 01:22, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
So it's decided. "OK, that's it," as the expression goes, "I'm putting something into the article about cultural norms and mental illness."FET 22:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But not without permission. See my talk page:FET 23:40, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Revocation of conditional release
"Revocation of conditional release"? What does this mean? -- Anon.
- Ah. It's what Brits would call "breaching parole conditions". -- Anon.
Interesting to compare that list of symptoms with the Bush Administration.
Norman Bates (Psycho)
I have removed the entry:
The character of Norman Bates would appear to be psychotic rather than a psychopath. He shows some signs of guilt and appears to be responding to auditory hallucinations. I have added Chad from "In the Company of Men" as he is a consummate psychopath and is an exellent example of many of the features but particularly a lack of ordinary guilt. --CloudSurfer 18:50, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Well, in Bates discussions with his mother, he clearly seems to show reluctance against murder. (From http://www.imdb.com)
Norman Bates' Mother: No! I tell you no! I won't have you bringing some young girl in for supper! By candlelight, I suppose, in the cheap, erotic fashion of young men with cheap, erotic minds! Norman Bates: Mother, please...! Norman Bates' Mother: And then what? After supper? Music? Whispers? Norman Bates: Mother, she's just a stranger. She's hungry, and it's raining out! Norman Bates' Mother: "Mother, she's just a stranger"! As if men don't desire strangers! As if... ohh, I refuse to speak of disgusting things, because they disgust me! You understand, boy? Go on, go tell her she'll not be appeasing her ugly appetite with MY food... or my son! Or do I have tell her because you don't have the guts! Huh, boy? You have the guts, boy? Norman Bates: Shut up! Shut up!
Questionable statistic
"It is, however, true that 90% of serial killers are psychopaths."
Source??
Lt. Loren Singer -Psychopath?
I have been watching JAG since the beginning, and since Nanci Chambers was hired to portray Lt. Loren Singer, JAG USN; Please excuse me for not being a mental health professional, but she did not strike me as a "psychopath", merely a hard nosed _itchy female officer who was also a lawyer, who also happened to be in the Judge Advocate General's Corps of the US Navy...
Just my two cents worth
{Michael 02:49, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)}
Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test)
In contemporary research and clinical practice, APD is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured interview. The items are as follows:
Interpersonal dimension
* Glibness/superficial charm * Grandiose sense of self-worth * Pathological lying * Conning/manipulative * Lack of remorse or guilt * Shallow affect * Callous/lack of empathy * Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Affective dimension
* Need for stimulation/-proneness to boredom * Parasitic lifestyle * Poor behavioral controls * Early behavioral problems * Lack of realistic, long-term goals * Impulsivity * Irresponsibility * Juvenile delinquency * Revocation of conditional release
Is this correct ?
Come on this describes 90% percent of the world's population.
or should I say U.S. citizens
Tom Ripley - Pyschopath?
I wouldn't classify Tom Ripley as a psychopath...although he has some traits, he fails on:
- Lack of remorse or guilt
- Shallow affect
- Callous/lack of empathy
Although I ain't no psychologist, these three seem neccessary for someone to be classified a psychopath.
Kane, not a psychopath?
Just curious why Kane has been removed from the list of fictional psychopaths. In addition to being referred to as a psychopath on WWE Raw by many other characters, including the commentators, he seems to meet most of the PCL-R criteria (in fact, the only one he doesn't exhibit at all is "glibness/superficial charm"). I can understand Gene Snitsky being removed, since he hasn't really done a lot to show himself as a psychopath, but why Kane? --HBK 17:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Fictional Sociopaths
Gaz isn't a sociopath so I removed her. And why do you people keep talking about how intelligent and disciplined sociopaths are, when that isn't the case. They're disorganized and posess a deficient ability to plan or perceive the future. I don't think that many of those names really fit, but I'm not familiar enough with the works they came from so I can't remove them.
One other thing, all the headings that say "Psychopath" should probably be rewritten "Sociopath," and rewritten to fit that definition.
- From the article:
- Psychopaths in popular fiction and movies generally possess a number of standard characteristics which are not necessarily as common amongst real-life psychopaths... an individual with APD is much more likely to be impulsive, disorganised and short-tempered rather than the smooth-talking, self-disciplined character portrayed by Anthony Hopkins or Kiefer Sutherland.
- In other words, you're absolutely right, sociopaths aren't disciplined, and the article already states it. But the general Hollywood portrayal of a sociopath is disciplined, and the article mentions that as well, since it is a heading on Fictional sociopaths, after all. --HBK 15:20, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
Noting possible changes that might want to be reversed
On 20 May 2005, User:212.56.128.186 deleted a lot of information from this article. I have no way of knowing if this was a good decision, however, I observe that a chunk of it (sections Examples of sociopaths in television and onwards) were put back later, and noted as correcting vandalism.
For example: Current content Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a personality disorder which is often characterised by antisocial and impulsive behaviour. APD is generally (if controversially) considered to be the same as, or similar to, the disorder that was previously known as psychopathic or sociopathic personality disorder.
Deleted at the end of that paragraph was Approximately 3% of men and 1% of women have some form of antisocial personality disorder (source: DSM-IV).
A number of other changes were made, some mystifying, but it is too late to simply revert as other changes have followed.
Someone who knows something about this subject might like to check the history (difference link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antisocial_personality_disorder&diff=13998851&oldid=13968240) Notinasnaid 17:47, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
As 212.56.128.186 said in another article [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ireland&diff=prev&oldid=13615728). Too bad that several editors did not spot it. I am reving back to the last by Stevertigo. Meggar 00:27, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
Lists of fictional and famous sociopaths: Original research?
The article contains lists of people and fictional characters who are allegedly sociopaths. The lists appear to be based on the opinions of contributors. I think this is original research, which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Classifying people as sociopath is pretty subjective if the criteria are vague, especially in the case of fictional characters. For example, whether Patrick Bateman (in American Psycho) is a sociopath depends, among other things, on the accuracy of his own descriptions: has he really committed the murders he describes or is it just fantasy? Both interpretations are compatible with the novel, so whether the text indicates that Bateman is (potentially) a sociopath or not is a matter of opinion.
I think both lists are inherently POV, unless we change it to something like People diagnosed with ASPD and then provide references for all entries to a source that mentions the diagnosis by a psychologist/psychiatrist. I would like to hear what other people think about this. If no one objects, I'll remove the lists in a week or so. Sietse 10:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)