MediaWiki talk:Newarticletext

See also MediaWiki:Noarticletext, MediaWiki talk:Noarticletext

Template:Ilm

Red links

It strikes me a lot of "vandalism" is a result of an inexperienced user clicking a red link in an article, finding themselves straight on a live edit page, and then typing-in the first thing that comes into their heads - probably with no real idea that they are modifying the live database, since this is not the expected behavior on an ordinary website.

Is this the best default behavior? Should we make users read a boilerplate page before reaching a live edit page? Might reduce the page deletion load on the sysops.

Similarly, a lot of VfD pages seem to have started out as ill-considered red links which got turned into stubs - so we really should not red-link anything that would not make a suitable article in its own right and we should remove any such red links when detected. I generally do this, but it does not seem to be common practice and I have not seen any guidelines. Anjouli 13:50, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The edit page already contains the following notice:

Template:Newarticletext

I think it's a good thing that users stumble across the editability of Wikipedia by accident. It's a quick introduction into the world of wikis. Deleting nonsense pages is really not a lot of work. I do agree about not creating links to articles which we don't want to be written, of course.—Eloquence 13:59, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)

I broadly agree. I just think it is a bit too easy to blindly bang the keyboard without reading the boilerplate. Just making it require a little more thought would keep out the real headbangers but not put off anybody with more than half a brain. Anyway, just a suggestion. Not something about which I have any strong feelings. Anjouli 15:08, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Too much boilerplate and instructions and help and pointers has a way of becoming annoying, so keeping it short is a Good Thing. But anyone who hangs around long enough to find it annoying is also likely to make an account. So I'd say: treat anon users to some more boiler plates, info and pointers, carefully chosen not to be overdone, and keep to shorthand philosophy for people with user names. Zocky 17:06, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Keep in mind that some people deliberately choose not to create an account, or not to use it on certain locations.—Eloquence

That's true. In that case they don't get a watchlist, user page, IP anonimity, etc. We already treat anon users differently. Zocky 17:11, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Of course, but this has technical reasons. We shouldn't annoy them intentionally. :-) —Eloquence

It's just as technical as giving them talk pages. And I'm not talking about striving to be annoying: just push verbosity on the edit page up to the level appropriate for somebody who has stumbled here by accident and has never heard either of wikipedia or wiki concept. Zocky 17:45, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps you could edit MediaWiki:newarticletext to demonstrate what you mean. I have unprotected it for you.—Eloquence

OK, I added a link to the sandbox, plus changed the wording from "page" to "article", which I hope sounds a tad more serious. I would have made it a bit flashier and more explicit if logged users didn't have to look at it.

OTOH, the text on the edit screen for existing pages could say something like:

"Please note that your changes to the encyclopedia will be visible immediately, so you should review Wikipedia's guidelines and policies before making extensive changes."

But I'm not sure that it would convey "It's always OK to correct typoes" enough. Zocky 19:17, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I redesigned it a bit. The message probably shouldn't be displayed for signed in users.—Eloquence

You're allergic to verbosity, heh? :)

I think that it should be somewhat cuddlier, so we don't sound scary. Also, please bear in mind that non-native speakers may have trouble understanding less verbose sentences. "Please do so" is not very good in that respect. Any thoughts? Zocky

I'm torn. The message is shown for signed in and unregistered users alike. I'm not sure it's a good idea to disable it entirely for signed in users. It might be overkill to have a separate message. But if we keep it enabled, we should try to not go beyond a certain maximum number of characters to avoid annoying the users. How these characters are used is another question.

In other words, with the current setup, I'm all for rewording the message, but I think it should not get any longer.—Eloquence

Any objections to changing the colour? It's fairly unreadable on my screen on the pages with a yellow background. Angela. 20:16, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead, it was just an experiment.—Eloquence

How about some tinting?

Do we think it's ugly in principle? Zocky 20:37, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Not at all. I'm mostly concerned about the space as it affects the placement of the edit box on the page.—Eloquence

Well, I think that tinting it will make it look more like a part of UI than like accompanying text, which might be good. If we want that philosophy, it shoud of the same width as the edit box. Zocky 21:11, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Just a thought: Maybe just the warning shoud be in the frame: Zocky

To write the article, type in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Visually I think that's very ugly. Semantically I'm not sure the two are so different.—Eloquence

Well, the second one is a warning, the first one is just accompanying text. I was thinking that it's more prominent tinted (and easier to ignore when you get used to it), but if the whole box is tinted, it looks pretty bulky.Zocky 01:21, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think that this is not what we need --ilya 05:45, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I have two points re the new text:

• How will older/different browsers handle the formatting? (I've yet to check, but will)
• Should the DO NOT UPLOAD...PERMISSION text be moved here? I think that's a good idea - I think too many people miss the copyright text down the bottom.

Dysprosia 01:04, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please not more text into the box. In low resolutions the edit box will then be too far down at the bottom and because of a JavaScript that puts the cursor in the box, we might cause some involuntary screen scrolling.—Eloquence 01:10, Dec 20, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Anyway, copy vio is a far less common problem than testing, and people who are guilty of copy vio are usually easier to deal with. Zocky 01:21, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

May be "so you may want to experiment in the sandbox first" instead of "so if you just want to test how things work, please do that in the sandbox" (too crude)

That might encourage people to start writing their articles in the sandbox, which is not a good thing and does happen quite a bit already. Angela. 05:42, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well, if somebody cannot tell sandbox from regular article how can we be sure he won't mess things in an article? And Sandbox in its present is clearly not the place where one may want to write about Shakespeare. And current message is too bold --ilya 06:22, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

What about requiring anonymous users to do preview before saving new articles? Previewing new articles is a good idea in any case so it won't harm good users. And on the preview we can notify about copyright etc. --ilya 05:45, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

That's not something we can change with this namespace, so needs to go to Sourceforge as a feature request. Angela. 05:42, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Still [what is] your opinion? --ilya

What do you mean? It wasn't an opinion. We can't make it so edits by anons don't go through without them pressing preview using the MediaWiki namespace. That's a change beyond sysop control -- nothing to do with my opinion. Angela. 07:25, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hm, I was sure everything on Wikipedia is to do something with everyone 's opinion... still you don't need to answer. ilya

Oh, what is my opinion. I don't mind either way but it's not up to me as I wouldn't be the one coding it. Anyway, my point was that it shouldn't be discussed here in the MediaWiki namespace because it isn't something that can be changed using this namespace. Angela. 21:11, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)

Bad idea in any case. You don't want to preview when making spelling correction, which is something that anons do a lot.—Eloquence

I said, when writing a new article. --ilya 14:33, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

People will be more responsible if they see 'Oh, I click Yes and this will look that way'; at least they will understand what happens ilya

Please let's not forget the difference between an article and any other wiki page. Pages like this need to use "page" and not "article". --mav 05:20, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Mav, I don't get the point. ilya

The point is that MediaWiki:Newarticletext said "article" before when this same message is displayed in every wiki page namespace. An empty page even in the article namespace is not an article either. --mav 23:57, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Tweaked the formatting/bold/it a little. If you don't like it, feel free to remove/change. Dysprosia 12:58, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

New article text, and draft of guide (from the village pump)

I've just changed the new article text—the text that appears when you edit a page that doesn't yet exist. It now reads:

You are at a page that does not exist yet. To create an article on this topic, type in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button. Your addition to the encyclopedia will be visible immediately, so if you just want to test how things work, please do that in the sandbox.

Please do not create an encyclopedia article about yourself, or an article whose main purpose is to promote a product or business. See What Wikipedia is not for more guidance. Articles in serious violation of Wikipedia's policies may be removed without notice.

I've also create a rough draft of a simpler guide to use instead of What Wikipedia is not—one which concentrates on the most common reasons why things end up on VfD. Dpbsmith 23:58, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC))

Too long

This message has gotten way too long. It's almost pushing the edit box below the first screen (especially for low resolutions). Dori | Talk 02:06, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. It's quite off-putting at the moment. I don't think we need to repeat what is already covered at Wikipedia:Your first article. Could it be shortened to:

Wikipedia does not have an article on this topic yet. Read Wikipedia:Your first article and Wikipedia:Tutorial, then create your page in the box below. Your addition to the encyclopedia will be visible immediately, so please only test in the sandbox.

Angela. 19:56, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've rephrased and shortened it. Please do not push this button type notices are not very effective, so I've toned down the rhetoric a bit.--Eloquence*

It seems like this message has been constantly changing over the past couple of weeks so I thought I'd come in here and put in my two cents. I agree with some others above that the message should be succinct - I definitely didn't like the very long version that has since been changed. As far as the current version goes, I'm not sure we need a link to the test wiki. Since this message primarily applies to newcomers who don't know how Wikipedia works, I think it's more confusing to send them to an entirely different project... the sandbox works well enough for any testing they'd want to do IMO.  – Jrdioko (Talk) 21:13, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The sandbox is good for testing editing functionality, but you can't use it to test stuff like templates or the creation of new articles. Many nonsense pages which are created are actually links from the sandbox. Having a clear distinction here - a small, isolated test page vs. a large demonstration wiki - makes sense, IMHO.--Eloquence*

Ok, that makes sense and sounds like a good idea, but I still wonder how obvious that distinction is to the newcomers who would be reading the message. Maybe we could just link to the sandbox from this page and then adjust the sandbox template to explain that if they want to create new pages to go to the test wiki rather than en:.  – Jrdioko (Talk) 17:38, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That would work for me, too.--Eloquence*

Proposed changes

I'd like to change the sentence "If you are new to Wikipedia, you may want to read more about how to write your first article." to "If you are new to Wikipedia, you may want to take a look at the tutorial before creating your first article." Also, if the community agrees to my proposed change to Template:Sandbox (see Template talk:Sandbox), and a page linked to from the Sandbox mentions the test wiki, I'd like to change "Please use the sandbox or the test wiki (http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playground) for experiments." to "Please use the Sandbox for experiments." I'd make these changes myself since they're relatively minor, but I'd like to ask the community before making any changes to an interface message.  – Jrdioko (Talk) 23:54, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It seems there were no objections, so I made the changes you suggested (more or less) and added a link to the test wiki in the sandbox template. Angela. 18:37, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I would like to ask about the capitalization of "sandbox." I don't know the exact rule, but it was my understanding that the lowercase word referred to a "sandbox" as explained in the sandbox article, but that when the word is made into a proper noun (such as our Wiki Sandbox), the word would be capitalized. I suppose there's also a possibility that the plural "sandboxes" in contexts such as "sandboxes on Wiki project" is lowercase and "the Test Sandbox on the Test Wikipedia," for example, is uppercase. I personally don't care what it is, but I think this should be standardized throughout the various pages that refer to the sandbox. I encountered this when trying to figure out what should be capitalized in Wikipedia:About the Sandbox (which now might need to be moved to Wikipedia:About the sandbox or Wikipedia:About The Sandbox *smiles*). I'm not sure where this should be discussed, but I thought I'd start here. Thanks!  – Jrdioko (Talk) 00:07, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I see no reason for capitalizing it. I don't think the Wikipedia sandbox is a proper noun. Sandbox is a generic term used on nearly every wiki to describe a testing area. And "our Wiki Sandbox" would be very wrong as the capitalized version of wiki is generally taken to mean the Portland Pattern Repository, not Wikipedia. :) Angela. 21:50, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Good to know :). That brings up a whole different host of problems since I know I've seen "Wiki" in several places (such as "Wiki markup" on Wikipedia:How to edit a page). I see now that sandbox, when used as a general term, should be lowercase. However, it still seems to me that "the English Sandbox" should be capitalized since we are pointing out that sandbox as opposed to the others. Does this sound right? Also, since Wikipedia:About the Sandbox describes the English Sandbox rather than sandboxes in general, it seems like it too should be in uppercase. I've never been the best at figuring out what needs to be capitalized, though, so perhaps I'm not the best person to be thinking about this. Maybe I'll have to take a look at a grammar book.  – Jrdioko (Talk) 22:52, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As the Main Page is capitalized but the Village pump isn't, it could go either way. I don't actually mind too much anyway. Angela. 00:37, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ok, and it's not a big deal, I just have a thing for standardization :).  – Jrdioko (Talk) 03:10, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have added a link to search for the title. See MediaWiki talk:Noarticletext for the discussion on this. Angela. 13:16, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense for talk page

The newarticletext message does not make sense for a talk page. I went to add comment on the scarity article that did not have a talk page. So I got this message:

Wikipedia does not yet have a Talk page called Scarcity.

• To start the article, begin typing in the box below. When you're done, press the "Save page" button. Your changes will be visible immediately.
• Please do not create an article to promote yourself, a website, a product, or a business (see Wikipedia:Policy).
• If you are new to Wikipedia, please read the tutorial before creating your first article, and only use the sandbox for editing experiments.
• Search for Scarcity in Wikipedia

Problems with the message in the context of a talk page:

1. It's not an article
2. You shouldn't have to read the tutorial before making a comment on a talk page.

As the message stands in the context of a talk page, I think that a new visitor to the site would be seriously discouraged from making a comment on the talk page. Reading a twelve page tutorial just to make a comment is seriously out of line.

I would recommend that the software should be improved to have different text for a new article and a new talk page. For a stop gap measure, I would recommend that the new article text include a disclaimer that it refers to creating an article, and that it can be disregarded in the context of creating a new talk page. Jrincayc 15:25, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Proposed patch:

diff -ur mediawiki-1.3.8_orig/includes/EditPage.php mediawiki-1.3.8/includes/EditPage.php
--- mediawiki-1.3.8_orig/includes/EditPage.php	2004-10-30 05:18:19.000000000 -0600
+++ mediawiki-1.3.8/includes/EditPage.php	2004-11-26 21:54:31.000000000 -0600
@@ -116,7 +116,11 @@
 		$isCssJsSubpage = (Namespace::getUser() == $wgTitle->getNamespace() and preg_match("/\\.(css|js)$/", $wgTitle->getText() ));
 
 		if(!$this->mTitle->getArticleID()) { # new article
-			$wgOut->addWikiText(wfmsg("newarticletext"));
+			if( Namespace::isTalk( $this->mTitle->getNamespace() )) {
+				$wgOut->addWikiText(wfmsg("newtalktext"));
+			} else {
+				$wgOut->addWikiText(wfmsg("newarticletext"));
+			}
 		}
 
 		if( Namespace::isTalk( $this->mTitle->getNamespace() ) ) {
diff -ur mediawiki-1.3.8_orig/languages/Language.php mediawiki-1.3.8/languages/Language.php
--- mediawiki-1.3.8_orig/languages/Language.php	2004-11-06 18:27:45.000000000 -0600
+++ mediawiki-1.3.8/languages/Language.php	2004-11-26 21:37:37.000000000 -0600
@@ -542,6 +542,11 @@
 To create the page, start typing in the box below
 (see the [[{{ns:4}}:Help|help page]] for more info).
 If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's '''back''' button.",
+'newtalktext' => 
+"You've followed a link to a talk page that doesn't exist yet.
+To comment on the article, start typing in the box below
+(see the [[{{ns:4}}:Help|help page]] for more info).
+If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's '''back''' button.",
 'talkpagetext' => '<!-- MediaWiki:talkpagetext -->',
 'anontalkpagetext' => "----''This is the discussion page for an anonymous user who has not created an account yet or who does not use it. We therefore have to use the numerical [[IP address]] to identify him/her. Such an IP address can be shared by several users. If you are an anonymous user and feel that irrelevant comments have been directed at you, please [[Special:Userlogin|create an account or log in]] to avoid future confusion with other anonymous users.'' ",
 'noarticletext' => '(There is currently no text in this page)',

Jrincayc 02:49, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Uploaded the patch to bug 948 (http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=948) (Combined with fix for bug 626 (http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=626) and re-uploaded) Jrincayc 23:58, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I asked a non-wikipedian what they thought about the English Wikipedia newarticletext message including Patrick's if namespace addition. Their comments were:

1. What is a namespace?
2. I thought I was going to a discussion.
3. What is a sandbox?
4. What is the definition of an experiment? I am new to wikipedia, so everything I do including typing in a box is an experiment.
5. The whole thing (including more than just the new page text) has been so discouraging that I am never going to do anything with Wikipedia even though I have enough knowledge to edit some things.

Is this what we want people to think who have never used wikipedia before? Jrincayc 17:18, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Different new page text for each namespace

Bug 626 (http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=626) has a patch to split the newarticletext to be different for different namespaces and talk. If you have suggestions or ideas, incorporate them into the following ideas, and/or comment on them if you like. Note that these can be customized for individual wikipedias and so these defaults should be short and generic. Jrincayc 02:38, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As is now explained in the bug page, no software patch is needed. See also the German Wikipedia (use the link at the top of this talk page and see the edit and talk page there), where this has been applied.--Patrick 16:10, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

newarticletext

You've followed a link to a page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

I would change the first sentence into "You are about to create a page that doesn't exist yet." This gives a clearer distinction with MediaWiki:Noarticletext for the view page as opposed to the edit page. Ditto for the other namespaces.--Patrick 14:41, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

newuserpagetext

You've followed a link to a user page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

newwikipediapagetext

You've followed a link to a project page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

newimagepagetext

You've followed a link to a image description page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

"You are about to provide the description of an image. To do this, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button."

"Create the page" is confusing, because if there is an image, it just adds an editable part.--Patrick 14:50, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

newmediawikitext

You've followed a link to a mediawiki page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

newtemplatetext

You've followed a link to a template that doesn't exist yet. To create the template, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

newhelppagetext

You've followed a link to a help page that doesn't exist yet. To create the help page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

newcategorytext

(This category has no description. See the [[{ns:4}}:Help|help page]] for more information.)

Comments?

"You are about to provide the description and/or parent category of a category. To do this, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button."

newtalktext

You've followed a link to a talk page that doesn't exist yet. To comment on the page Newarticletext, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button.

Comments?

Stop the dicdef madness

Seems like we've been getting more dicdefs than usual lately. I propose adding, at least temporarily:

• • Please do not create dictionary definitions. These belong on our companion project Wiktionary.

Adding a speedy deletion warning

I think it would be a good idea to add a notice to this template telling new users about the Wikipedia:Speedy deletion policy. I know some new users get baddly bitten by innocently creating articles that fall into the speedie deletion criteria without knowing of their existance. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29&oldid=15007655#.22Speedy_Deletion.22_Overkill) an example of a new user feeling attacked due to getting a partially written article speedily deleted. A well-formed warning would, assuming it's read, alert new users to the existance of Speedie deletion and warn them to save articles on subpages of their user page if they are not done working on them.

Possible text could be: "Due to the volume of worthless content created, newly created articles may be [Wikipedia:Speedy deletion|speedily deleted]]. If you are unable to finish a significant part of a planned article, do not save it to the article space, save it as a subpage of your User page. (link to a page describing how to do this)"

If you think this is a good idea, please comment in support. I'll try to respond to any objections. JesseW 04:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)