Talk:Roman Emperor

As can be seen at Talk:List of Roman Emperors, my more complicated listing of Roman Emperors is far from a finished or satisfactory project. I would greatly appreciate any input as to how it ought to be refined or improved. Publius

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As I mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be a good idea for this page's list of the Emperors to focus on dynastic and non-dynastic changes (so as to justify its separate listing of the Emperors). I put together an example of how this might be accomplished with the Julio-Claudians as an example:

Julio-Claudian Emperors:

• Caesar Augustus ("Imp. Caesar Augustus"; b. C. Octavius), d. 14
  • M. Vipsanius Agrippa, 18 BC – 12 BC
  • Ti. Claudius Nero, 6 BC – 1 BC, 4 – 14 (as "Ti. Iulius Caesar")
• Tiberius I ("Ti. Caesar Augustus"; b. Ti. Claudius Nero), 14 – 37
  • Note: Tiberius had been co-Emperor with Caesar Augustus from 6 BC to 1 BC, and again from AD 4 until his own accession to the purple
• Gaius "Caligula" ("C. Caesar Augustus Germ."; b. C. Iulius Caesar Germ.), 37 – 41
• Claudius I ("Ti. Claudius Caesar Augustus Germ."; b. Ti. Claudius Drusus), 41 – 54
• Nero ("Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germ."; b. L. Domitius Ahenobarbus), 54 – 68

Dynastic Relationships:

Caesar Augustus's third wife Livia Drusilla (subsequently "Iulia Augusta") had previously borne two children by her first husband, Tiberius Claudius Nero: Tiberius and Drusus. Tiberius's second wife was Iulia, Marcus Agrippa's widow (his first wife had been Vipsania, Agrippa's daughter by his first marriage); Caesar Augustus adopted Tiberius on June 26, 4, whereupon Tiberius himself adopted his brother Drusus's son by Marcus Antonius's daughter, Germanicus Iulius Caesar. Germanicus married Vipsania Agrippina, Agrippa's daughter by Iulia and Tiberius's stepdaughter, and had by her one surviving son, Gaius "Caligula" ("Bootkins"), and a daughter, Iulia Agrippina, whose second husband was Germanicus's brother by blood, Claudius (she was his fourth wife); Agrippina had already borne a son (Lucius) by her first husband, Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus. Claudius adopted Lucius under the name Nero in 40; Nero married Claudius's daughter Octavia in 53.

What does everyone think about using this as a general model for the article's second part? It will of course take some time to modify the whole article, and will necessarily make the article somewhat lengthier, but I think it would go a long way toward demonstrating the complicated (dare I say, "byzantine"?) often-familial nature of the Roman Emperor's succession. Comments? Publius

It sounds an interesting idea. But speaking of "byzantine", the familial connections get more complicated from the Tetrarchy and till Anastasius I. Any ideas how to cover the following connections (from a modern Greek encyclopedia)?:

• Diocletian (284 - 305) was father-in-law to Galerius.

• Maximian (286 - 305, 307 - 310) was father to Maxentius, father-in-law to both Constantius Chlorus and Constantine I of the Roman Empire, grandfather-in-law to Licinius, grandfather to Constantine II of the Roman Empire, Constantius II, and Constans, great-grandfather to Julian and great-grandfather-in-law to Gratian.

• Galerius (305 - 311) was son-in-law to Diocletian and father-in-law to Maxentius.

• Constantius Chlorus (305 - 306) was son-in-law to Maximian, father and brother-in-law to Constantine I of the Roman Empire, father-in-law to Licinius, grandfather to Constantine II of the Roman Empire, Constantius II, Constans and Julian, and great-grandfather-in-law to Gratian.

• Constantine I of the Roman Empire (306 - 337) was son and brother-in-law to Constantius Chlorus, son-in-law to Maximian, brother-in-law to Maxentius and Licinius, father to Constantine II of the Roman Empire, Constantius II and Constans, uncle and father-in-law to Julian and grandfather-in-law to Gratian.

• Maxentius (306 - 312) was son to Maximian, son-in-law to Galerius, brother-in-law to both Constantius Chlorus and Constantine I of the Roman Empire, uncle by marriage of Licinius, uncle by blood of Constantine II of the Roman Empire, Constantius II and Constans, great-uncle to Julian and great-great-uncle by marriage to Gratian.

• Licinius (308 - 324) was grandson-in-law to Maximian, son-in-law to Constantius Chlorus, nephew by marriage to [[Maxentius], brother-in-law to Constantine I of the Roman Empire, uncle by marriage to Constantine II of the Roman Empire, Constantius II, Constans and Julian, great-uncle by marriage to Gratian.

• Constantine II of the Roman Empire (337 - 340) was grandson to Maximian and Constantius Chlorus, son of Constantine I of the Roman Empire, nephew by blood of Maxentius, nephew by marriage of Licinius, older brother of Constantius II and Constans, first cousin and brother-in-law to Julian, uncle by marriage of Gratian.

• Constantius II (337 - 361) was grandson to Maximian and Constantius Chlorus, son of Constantine I of the Roman Empire, nephew by blood of Maxentius, nephew by marriage of Licinius, younger brother of Constantine II of the Roman Empire, older brother of Constans, first cousin and brother-in-law to Julian, father-in-law to Gratian.

• Constans (337 - 350) was grandson to Maximian and Constantius Chlorus, son of Constantine I of the Roman Empire, nephew by blood of Maxentius, nephew by marriage of Licinius, younger brother of Constantine II of the Roman Empire and Constantius II, first cousin and brother-in-law to Julian, uncle by marriage to Gratian.

• Magnentius (350 - 353's widow was later second wife to Valentinian I.

• Julian (361 - 363) was great-grandson to Maximian, grandson to Constantius Chlorus, great-nephew to Maxentius, nephew by blood to Constantine I of the Roman Empire, nephew by marriage to Licinius, first cousin and brother-in-law of Constantine II of the Roman Empire, Constantius II and Constans, uncle by marriage to Gratian.

• Valentinian I (364 - 375) was married to the widow of Magnentius, brother to Valens, father to Gratian and Valentinian II, father-in-law to Theodosius I, grandfather-in-law to Constantius III, great-grandfather to Valentinian III and great-great-grandfather-in-law to Olybrius.

• Valens (364 - 378) was brother to Valentinian I, uncle by blood to Gratian and Valentinian II, uncle by marriage to Theodosius I, great-uncle by marriage to Constantius III, great-great-uncle to Valentinian III and great-great-great-uncle by marriage to Olybrius.

• Gratian (375 - 383) was great-grandson-in law to Maximian and Constantius Chlorus, grandson-in-law to Constantine I of the Roman Empire, grandnephew by marriage to Maxentius and Licinius, nephew by marriage to Constantine II of the Roman Empire, Constans and Julian, son-in-law to Constantius II, son to Valentinian I, nephew by blood to Valens, half-brother to Valentinian II, brother-in-law to Theodosius I, uncle by marriage to Constantius III, great-uncle to Valentinian III and great-great-uncle to Olybrius.

• Valentinian II (375 - 392) was son to Valentinian I, nephew to Valens, half-brother to Gratian, brother-in-law to Theodosius I, uncle by marriage to Constantius III, great-uncle to Valentinian III and great-great-uncle to Olybrius.

• Theodosius I (379 - 392) was son-in-law to Valentinian I, nephew by marriage to Valens, brother-in-law to Gratian and Valentinian II, father to Arcadius and Flavius Augustus Honorius, father-in-law to Constantius III, grandfather to Theodosius II and Valentinian III , grandfather-in-law to Marcian, great-grandfather-in-law to Olybrius.

• Arcadius (395 - 408) was son to Theodosius I, brother to Flavius Augustus Honorius, brother-in-law to Constantius III, father to Theodosius II, father-in-law to Marcian, uncle to Valentinian III, great-uncle by marriage to Olybrius.

• Flavius Augustus Honorius (395 - 423) was son to Theodosius I, brother to Arcadius, brother-in-law to Constantius III, uncle to Theodosius II and Valentinian III, uncle by marriage to Marcian and great-uncle by marriage to Olybrius.

• Theodosius II (408 - 450) was grandson to Theodosius I, son to Arcadius, nephew by blood to Flavius Augustus Honorius, nephew by marriage to Constantius III, brother-in-law to Marcian, first cousin to Valentinian III and uncle by marriage to Olybrius.

• Constantius III (421) was grandson-in-law to Valentinian I, great-nephew by marriage to Valens, nephew by marriage to Gratian and Valentinian II, son-in-law to Theodosius I, brother-in-law to Arcadius and Flavius Augustus Honorius, father to Valentinian III, uncle by marriage to Theodosius II and Marcian, grandfather-in-law to Olybrius.

• Valentinian III (424 - 455) was great-grandson to Valentinian I, great-great-nephew to Valens, grandson to Theodosius I, great-nephew to Gratian and Valentinian II, son to Constantius III, nephew to Arcadius and Flavius Augustus Honorius, first cousin by blood to Theodosius II, first cousin by marriage to Marcian and father-in-law to Olybrius.

• Marcian (450 - 457) was grandson-in-law to Theodosius I, son-in-law to Arcadius, nephew by marriage to Flavius Augustus Honorius and Constantius III, brother-in-law to Theodosius II, first cousib by marriage to Valentinian III, father-in-law to Anthemius, uncle by marriage to Olybrius, grandfather-in-law to the daughter of Leo I of the Byzantine Empire.

• Leo I of the Byzantine Empire (457 - 474) was brother-in-law to Basiliscus, father-in-law to the son of Anthemius, Zeno of the Byzantine Empire and Anastasius I of the Byzantine Empire, grandfather to Leo II.

• Anthemius (467 - 472) was son-in-law to Marcian and father-in-law to the daughter of Leo I of the Byzantine Empire.

• Olybrius (472) was great-great-grandson-in-law to Valentinian I, great-great-great-nephew by marriage to Valens, great-grandson-in-law to Theodosius I, great-great-nephew by marriage to Gratian and Valentinian II, grandson-in-law to Constantius III, great-nephew by marriage to Arcadius and Flavius Augustus Honorius, son-in-law to Valentinian III, nephew by marriage to Theodosius II and Marcian.

• Leo II (474) was grandson to Leo I of the Byzantine Empire, great-nephew to Basiliscus, son to Zeno of the Byzantine Empire, nephew by marriage to the son of Anthemius).

• Zeno of the Byzantine Empire (474 - 475, 476 - 491), was son-in-law to Leo I of the Byzantine Empire, nephew by marriage to Basiliscus, brother-in-law to the son of Anthemius, father to Leo II. His widow married Anastasius I of the Byzantine Empire.

• Basiliscus (475 - 476) was brother-in-law to Leo I of the Byzantine Empire, uncle by marriage to the son of Anthemius, Zeno of the Byzantine Empire and Anastasius I of the Byzantine Empire, great-uncle to Leo II.

• Anastasius I of the Byzantine Empire (491 - 518) was son-in-law to Leo I of the Byzantine Empire, nephew by marriage to Basiliscus, brother-in-law to the son of Anthemius and married to the widow of Zeno of the Byzantine Empire.

As you can see those Emperors are connected to each other but far from consitute a single Royal House. Any ideas of how to indicate this in the article? User:Dimadick

Yes, I've been working on upgrading the whole article to my new proposed format, and the Tetrarchy and beyond is definitely a snag. I've been thinking that perhaps we ought to delineate the later houses into separate lines based on Constantinian, Valentinian, Theodosian, and Leonine lines, and add clarification as to how the lines are related. Something along the following lines:

Constantius I's first wife St. Helena bore him a son, Constantinus I, whose second wife Fausta (sister of Maxentius and daughter of Maximian by Eutropia, mother of Constantius's second wife Theodora) bore him three sons (Constantinus II, Constantius II, and Constans I) and two daughters (Constantia and Helena). Constantius II's daughter Constantia married Gratianus (see below), son of Valentinianus I (see below), while Helena married her half-cousin, Julianus "the Apostate".

What do you think? (As it happens, I'm glad someone was amused by my "byzantine" pun.) Publius 18:13, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm... pretty good but some connections of lesser significance should perhaps be clarified to avoid confusion. How about:

Constantius I was married twice. First to St. Helena and then to Theodora, daughter to Maximian by Eutropia and sister of Maxentius. He had a single son by the former known as Constantinus I and by the later two more sons (Dalmatius and Julius Constantius) and two daughters (Eutropia and Constantia). Constantine also married twice. First to Minervina and then to Fausta, a sister of his step-mother. The former was mother to Caesar Crispus and the later to three sons (Constantinus II, Constantius II, and Constans I) and two daughters (Constantia and Helena). Julius Constantius in turn became father to two sons: Caesar Gallus and Julian. Their sister Constantia was wife to Licinius. Constantia the younger was wife to Gallus and Helena to Julian. An even younger Constantia, daughter to Constantius II later became consort to Gratianus (see below), son of Valentinianus I (see below).

I am in turn glad to see someone trying to clarify the various conceptions and misconceptions about the Roman and "Byzantine" Emperors. User:Dimadick

What is your opinion of the current revisions (up to but not including Theodosius and his successors)? I'm not entirely satisfied with the Tetrarchical and Constantinian sections, but do you feel that they adequately convey what was happening with the Imperial dignity at the time? Or is more clarification necessary for the average reader? Publius 13:53, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Well, it's finally finished. I have completed the systematic upgrade of the article, including dynastic relationships and other topical information (like economic backgrounds and increasingly non-Italian origins of the Emperors), but I'm afraid I won't be around to discuss further improvements. I can only hope that the article is informative, and that others enjoy reading it as much as I have enjoyed writing it. Publius 06:58, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Splitting

This page is really, really long (67kb right now; over twice the recommended maximum length). Would anyone object to splitting it up? Four sub-articles seem rather obvious to me:

• Roman Emperor (Principate)
• Roman Emperor (Crisis of the Third Century)
• Roman Emperor (Dominate)
• Roman Emperor (Late Empire)

What does everyone else think?Binabik80 20:04, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As a general rule, whenever splitting away material, it's necessary to leave a condensed version of it at the parent article, with an indented note in italics telling the reader where to find the more complete material. As long as this is done, there's little harm in splitting. --Wetman 21:58, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See Talk:Roman Empire#Splitting up Roman Empire too for my answer.--Hippalus 09:33, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

The Holy Roman Empire

Are we really going to insinuate that the HRE was a legitimate continuation of the actual Empire, and not merely an imitator? -Chris5369 18:15, 20 Apr 2005

I think the edit you've made ("as a separate instution") sums it up sufficiently. Binabik80 23:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Touche. Just didn't want to start an ideological war again... -Chris5369 04:01, 21 Apr 2005

The idea that it is treated by historians as a separate institution might be okay to say. But as it stood it just mucked up the meaning of an already existing sentence, which was saying that historians called them Holy Roman Emperors. At any rate, it seems POV to say that the HRE was not a legitimate continuation of the actual empire - it considered itself to be, certainly. But something talking a bit more about how to distinguish the two might be in order. john k 03:11, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've had a go at it while you've been writing this message; what do you think? Saying that the HRE wasn't a legitimate continuation might verge on POV, but I don't think there should be a problem with saying that modern historians don't view it as such. I mean, they don't, do they? Binabik80 03:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is it POV? The only sources that seem to agree with the HRE continuation theory are the occasional German historians. Should we list the Sultans? The Tsars? To even include them, sounds POV. -Chris5369 00:41, 22 Apr 2005