Talk:Lent
|
|
This page (originally) posted by Carpentis.
This is a terrific article. I only changed the first paragraph because Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox believers differ considerably both in practice and in theology concerning Great Lent. Rather than try to include that material in this article, it seems better to discuss those in separate articles. I'll definitely refer back to this article as a template to make sure I cover the same breadth though, and would suggest that any other contributors do likewise. I'll put stubs in for now, just to define the terms. Wesley
I appreciate the additions and comments of Wesley, although I am a bit surprised by the distinctions made between Western and Eastern Christianity. I learned much of what I know of Lent from an Antiochene Orthodox priest--about as eastern as one can get. But I admit I am not an expert on the distinctions. I certainly didn't set out to write about Lent "as it is understood and practiced in Western Christianity. " Nor do the major references (encyclopedias, etc.) make the distinction. But I admit that proves nothing, as often subtle and not-so-subtle cultural differences can be ignored by popular references. I will seek to be more sensitive to those differences.
As for the addition of a reference to Mardi Gras by The Cunctator, I have chosen to modify the addition and move it to another position in the article. I originally meant to delete the reference entirely, but felt that it was worth mentioning if only because this event has become indelibly associated with Lent in the cultural sense. Mardi Gras and other carnival celebrations have almost no legitimate (spiritual/religious) claim to an association with Lent, except for the fact that they present an opportunity for the faithful to celebrate excess before the start of the fasting season. It is my understanding that many Christian festivals take place during periods when once pagan rites were practiced. But these Christian festivals would be practiced no matter what used to take place on the calendar. Carnivals, on the other hand, while having roots in pagan rites, have no scriptural basis for being associated with a christian festival.
This makes me question not the existance of Mardi Gras, only whether mention of it deserves inclusion in an article on Lent.
I am open to dialog on this point. Carpentis
- I'll admit I designated this as the "Western Lent" article at the top partly out of laziness. The alternative would be to go through all of this article and say "The West does this while the East does that" at all points where they differ, which would get awkward. It seemed simpler to split them off into separate articles. The fact that the beginning and ending dates of Lent are different (besides the date of Easter), and that the East has no Ash Wednesday, and others, suggested separate articles, even though they naturally have a great deal in common, and both East and West trace their practices back to the same traditions of the same ancient church. Also, I'm a relatively new convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism, the Orthodox Church in America to be specific, and I certainly don't know all there is to know about Lent, or what variations there are among different Orthodox jurisdictions. Although I have visited a local Antiochian Orthodox Church enough to know that they're also on the same schedule, at the very least.
- As for Mardi Gras, there probably is an ancient tradition of celebrating just before Lent, if only to get all the remaining meat and cheese, etc. out of the house. In the East, we still celebrate Meatfare and Cheesefare Sundays on two successive weeks; not exactly Mardi Gras, but pre-lenten feasts none the less. This bit is purely my own uneducated speculation. :-)
Is Winter Lent the same as Advent? If so, I think
- a) it should be noted here
- b) the article about Winter Lent shold be a simple redirect to Advent (as this one already tells the difference between Eastern and Western uses).
Any suggestions? Pfortuny 15:55, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, that's a good idea. Since I initially wrote the Winter Lent article (at least I think I did), I learned that "Winter Lent" is actually a less common, informal name for the "Fast of the Nativity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ", also sometimes called "St. Philip's Fast" because it starts on Nov. 15, St. Philip's feast day. Winter Lent should just redirect to Advent, where these sorts of variations can be spelled out, and for the most part already are. Wesley 18:05, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I did the redirect and a little modification at Advent to include this name. Pfortuny 08:31, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have reverted back to the version priot to this edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lent&oldid=10222660). The start and end dates of Lent are counted using a couple of different methods, which is explained in more detail later in the article. Also, edit had grammatical mistakes, etc. OTOH it might be a good idea to include "starts on Ash Wednesday" in the 1st paragraph. - Gyrofrog 17:10, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
When is Lent?
The dates when it falls should be in the first paragraph. The same goes for all the other holidays linked from here. This is an encyclopedia, and it shouldn't assume that people just know (i.e. I don't :). Dori | Talk 15:10, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)
- You are right, but :)
- The question is: if you want to know when lent is, then you need to know when Easter Sunday takes place, and this varies between Eastern and Western Traditions. So, the best guess is to say forty days (more or less) before Good Friday, which is (for some traditions) the first full moon in Spring. When does this take place? It depends on the year... So, is this worth dealing with in this article? Those problems are explaind at Easter, which is the real issue.
- Anyway, I really agree that the period is not clearly stated at the beginning, and in some sense, it ought to be. But someone with a better English than mine please enhance it.
- OK...For Western Christianity, the formula is as follows (oddly, I remember it (and only it) from 7th grade CCD): Easter falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Does anybody remember the Eastern formula? --Penta 01:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's not quite as simple as that (it's first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the northern vernal equinox). Most churches fix the northern vernal equinox (in the southern hemisphere the vernal equinox occurs in September) to 21 March. The actual date moves from this to 20 March and back (that's what leap years do). The full moon isn't an actual full moon but one that is calculated from a system of epacts. Most Eastern Christians (except Finnish Orthodox and some Oriental Orthodox) us the Julian calendar to determine the date of Easter. 21 March in the Julian calendar falls on the same day as 3 April in the Gregorian calendar: this leads to a difference in date when the calculated full moon falls between the dates. Also, the Gregorian reforms introduced a correction into the calculation of full moons for Easter. This means that Julian calendar calculated full moons show a greater discrepancy with actual full moons than those calculated according to the Gregorian calendar. Did I say it was not quite so simple? Gareth Hughes 10:49, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why forty days?
I was just wondering about this and thought the article might explain, but it doesn't. Why does Lent last forty days? Why not 30, 39, or 41? Does the New Testament describe some event that happened 40 days before Maundy Thursday, thus setting the subsequent events in motion? I'll try and look this up myself when I have time, but I have a feeling someone else already knows. Gyrofrog 16:38, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Answer: There is no forty-day period in Scripture preceding Maundy Thursday. Rather, the forty days is a reference to several 40-day Scriptural periods of fasting and preparation, most notably that of Jesus, fasting forty days in the wilderness before beginning his public ministry. Also Moses, who fasted 40 days on the mountain. Because of these Scriptures, it was felt that a forty-day period of asceticism and preparation was appropriate for catechumens to prepare for baptism on Easter Sunday. And it is that which evolved into Lent.
The above response is accurate concerning accounts of men fasting for forty days. But the Law contains no such commandment; it is not obligatory.
(Zec 7:3-5) And to speak unto the priests which were in the house of the LORD of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, "Should I weep in the fifth month, separating myself, as I have done these so many years?" {4} Then came the word of the LORD of hosts unto me, saying, {5} "Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, 'When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?'"
These were fasts proclaimed by people to mourn the several sieges of Jerusalem. But God never commanded them.
(Zec 7:6-7) And when ye did eat, and when ye did drink, did not ye eat for yourselves, and drink for yourselves? {7} Should ye not hear the words which the LORD hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain?
This is what God wanted, for His people to obey His commandemnts:
(Zec 8:16-19) "THESE are the things that YE SHALL DO; Speak ye every man THE TRUTH to his neighbour; execute THE JUDGMENT OF TRUTH AND PEACE in your gates: {17} And let NONE OF YOU IMAGINE EVIL in your hearts against his neighbour; and LOVE NO FALSE OATH: for all these are things THAT I HATE, saith the LORD." {18} And the word of the LORD of hosts came unto me, saying, {19} "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah JOY AND GLADNESS, and CHEEERFUL FEASTS; THEREFORE LOVE THE TRUTH AND PEACE."
There is nothing wrong with practicing Lent. But fasting is vanity if His commandment are ignored.
above was posted by the same user (user:68.99.216.121) (bakuzjw (aka 578) 00:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC))
New Project
Does anyone fancy working on WikiProject Christian liturgical year? Gareth Hughes 11:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)