Talk:Admiral
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Commodore
Can someone who knows something about these things explain the disappearance of Commodore from among US naval ranks and the "Lower half" and "Upper half" designations? RickK 01:16 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
It's all actually very well explained in the Commodore article. --Ray Trygstad 22:10, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
British Navy
Does anyone else think it's out of place to have a complete table of British officer ranks on the page for every military and Naval rank? Shouldn't it have it's own entry, perhaps? --Ray Trygstad 22:41, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Vis-a-vis the comments in the table: navy.mil clearly shows all-uppercase abbrevations for ranks. Not sure about Midshipman, though; I'm not sure it's an actual rank. I'll edit the table appropriately. --Eric 05:29, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC) ...or perhaps not. Anyway, the use of all caps in rank abbreviations is standard throughout the US Armed Forces. --Eric 05:31, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dutch Navy
This phrase about the Dutch navy is not correct: "The Dutch navy is unique in that there is only one Admiral in the navy and it is the reigning sovereign. As a result, the highest rank one can achieve in the Dutch navy is Lieutenant Admiral. Also, the Dutch have only two ranks with the title of Admiral, excluding the sovereign." The rank of admiral doesn't exist anymore officially since 1956 and it was only given twice in the 19th century: first in 1839 by King William I who made his son, allready Secretary of State for War and Navy and commander-in-chief, admiral; and the second time somewhere in the 1880's of 1890's when prince Henry was appointed admiral 6 days before his dead by his brother, king William III. There is no law or rule that the rank can only be held by the sovereign, in fact the only two time the rank was used, it was not the king.
- I rewrote the whole Dutch section due to heavy POV and bad grammer. Im not at all sure of the info contianed within, though, and am trusting that to those who put it in the article. BTW- What is the translation of "Schout bij Nacht"? That doesnt seem to me to look like any kind of Admiral rank. Also Nacht means night? "Night Admiral"? We need a Dutch Speaker to tell us. -Husnock 02:43, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Schout bij Nacht originates from the 16th century (or even before). Schout is often translated with "bailiff" or "sheriff". There is a link with the (old) verb "schouwen" wich means "to watch" or "to look after". So, the "Schout-bij-nacht" (Sheriff-at-Night / Watch-at-Night) was the person who supervised the ship by night when the captain was asleep. Later he became the commanding officer of the fleet or a squadron at night when the (vice-) admiral was asleep. And somewhere in the 17th century he was associated with the rear squadron of a battle fleet (comparable to the English rear-admiral). It is an Admiral rank, he uses the same insignia (with 2 stars) as vice-admiral (3 stars) and lieutenant-admiral (4 stars).
- The rank of admiraal (not 5 stars, but crossed batons) does not exist anymore. It can still be found in navy flag-protocols (tradition ?), but not in goverment decrees since 1956 (but tradition still says that the rank can only be given to a prince of the royal family).
- Besides two royal princes with the rank in the 19th century there is another royal link: in the 18th century it was ruled that the stadhouder (viceroy or substitute-ruler), a remarkable function in the Dutch Republic, was appointed admiraal-generaal of the navy and kapitein-generaal (captain-general) of the army. But most laws and rules regarding institutions of the Dutch Republic were abolished in the French era (1795-1813) and after the establishment of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (1813).
- Found some remarks in English here:
- http://flagspot.net/flags/nl~rank.html
- See also here, NATO codes for grades of military personnel, there is no Dutch equivalent (anymore) for OF-10 (Fleet-Admiral, Marshal, General-of-the-Army)
- http://www.mindef.nl:30280/mpbundels/20_serie/dp_20_10/20_10_bijlage_h.htm
Admiral ranks by seniority
I don't see the point of this section. Its authors seem to have gathered as many variations on the rank of admiral from different navies as they can find (plus at least one rank that never actually existed), then tried to put them in the order they would rank in a hypothetical navy that had the lot. Even if one accepts the validity of the exercise (which is undermined by the fact that rank titles have had different meanings in different times and places: e.g., Admiral in the Royal Netherlands Navy corresponds to Fleet Admiral in the USN, while a Kriegsmarine Admiral is generally considered to have ranked with a USN Vice Admiral), some of the placings are problematic at best.
- Admiral of the Fleet is the equivalent of the USN Fleet Admiral in the Royal Navy (and other navies), and belongs on the same line.
- Flag Admiral never existed. It was proposed in 1945 as a rank in the USN above Fleet Admiral; however, it was never adopted. If it is to be included, it should be on the same line as Admiral of the Navy, to which it is considered an equivalent.
- Lieutenant Admiral is not just a variation on Vice Admiral; it is a separate rank in the Royal Netherlands Navy, between Admiral and Vice Admiral.
- Counter Admiral is an alternative rendering of Ger. Konteradmiral, Fr. Contre-amiral, etc., which are usually translated as Rear Admiral; Counter Admiral and Rear Admiral should thus be on the same line.
- Commodore Admiral was a short-lived USN rank immediately below Rear Admiral; it is thus the equivalent of Flotilla Admiral (Ger. Flotillenadmiral), and belongs on the same line.
So, if we have to have the table, it should more like this:
This is still less than satisfactory, for the following reasons:
- General Admiral was a Kriegsmarine rank, between Grand Admiral and Admiral; there is some dispute over whether this should be treated as ranking between the USN Fleet Admiral and Admiral, or whether it should be treated as the equivalent of a USN Admiral (making a KM Admiral = USN Vice Admiral, KM Vice Admiral = USN Rear Admiral Upper Half, & KM Rear/Counter Admiral = USN Rear Admiral Lower Half).
- Admiral in the Royal Netherlands Navy equates to a USN Fleet Admiral, & Lieutenant Admiral to a USN Admiral.
- Rear Admiral in the USN has since 1985 been split into two separate ranks, Rear Admiral Upper Half and Rear Admiral Lower Half; the former corresponds to Rear Admiral in most other navies, the latter to Flotilla Admiral (or Commodore).
- Port Admirals appear not to have been admirals at all, but senior captains.
This would give us a table like this:
| Admiral of the Navy | Flag Admiral |
| Fleet Admiral | Admiral of the Fleet | Grand Admiral | Admiral (Royal Netherlands Navy) |
| General Admiral [1] |
| Admiral | Lieutenant Admiral | General Admiral [2] |
| Vice Admiral | Admiral (Kriegsmarine) [2] |
| Rear Admiral | Rear Admiral Upper Half | Counter Admiral | Vice Admiral (Kriegsmarine) [2] |
| Rear Admiral Lower Half | Commodore Admiral | Flotilla Admiral | Rear/Counter Admiral (Kriegsmarine) [2] |
[1] applies if a Kriegsmarine General Admiral is considered to outrank a USN Admiral; [2] applies if they are considered to be of equivalent rank.
Shouldn't we just scrap the whole section, and point people at Comparative military ranks? — Franey 13:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I am not at all for scraping the section. I think it is highly informative. The first table you mentioned though might be a good substitute, though. The second seemed a bit complicated. -Husnock 13:42, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, it is complicated, but the first table can be very misleading. For example, take this section:
General Admiral Admiral Lieutenant Admiral
- This leads us to assume that a General Admiral outranks an Admiral, who outranks a Lieutenant Admiral. But:
- as far as I know, no single navy has or had all three of these ranks;
- it is not safe to make this assumption across different navies. For example, a Lieutenant Admiral in the Royal Netherlands Navy ranked with a Kriegsmarine General Admiral (under one accepted scheme of equivalencies, anyway), not two grades below. (And a Dutch Admiral would actually outrank the German General Admiral.)
- So the only point of the table would seem to be:
- a quick and dirty guide for remembering the relative order of ranks in any one of the USN, RN, Royal Netherlands Navy, Deutsche Marine, or Kriegsmarine;
- an answer to the question, "If you wanted to invent a navy with as many grades of admiral as possible, what order should you put them in?" — Franey 15:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I guess if the Admirals from the different countries were all in the same room at the same time, it would matter who saluted who. It also comes to play in joint-international military operations with who has tactical control of a group fo ships from more than one country. I've served in task forces with U.S., Japanese, and South Korean ships. That was an issue as to which Admiral would have taccon of the whole group. Also, in World War II, the matter came up during surrender ceremonies where General Admiral von Friedeburg went to British HQ and back then the two sides were saluting enemy officers (try that today with Iraqi POWs!). In any event, the British actually said General Admiral was senior to Admiral. Some U.S. text books list it as "a rank between a full Admiral and Fleet Admiral".
I like the suggestions on these tables and I would say just go for it and make the changes in the article. I think the table should say, without a soubt, since this is an article about all Admiral ranks and a comparative table is something that the article needs. -Husnock 16:34, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I take your point about the importance of precedence between officers of different navies, whether in determining the chain of command or for matters of ceremony or protocol. But as I pointed out, the table as it stands is not reliable. It implies (correctly, according to the information you've supplied), that a Kriegsmarine General Admiral outranked a USN or RN Admiral; however, it also implies that the same German General Admiral would outrank an RNN Admiral, when the opposite is in fact true. The table could be expanded to take these kinds of things into account, but as you've said, it would make it significantly more complicated. Furthermore, it woud duplicate a number of the articles listed at Comparative military ranks — in particular Comparative military ranks of World War I and World War II, British and US military ranks compared, and Ranks and insignia of NATO.
- I liked your info about the Allies' perception of the relative rank of a General Admiral: this goes against the table at World War II, but you seem to have a better source.
- I also notice that you started the articles on the U.S. "super-ranks" of Admiral of the Navy and General of the Armies. This page (https://www.perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/rank/goa.htm) states that at least in 1944–1945, General of the Armies was considered a separate rank above General of the Army; I can't find a reference anywhere, but I can accept that similarly Admiral of the Navy was considered a superior rank to Fleet Admiral at the time of the creation of the latter rank (though this would not have been such a pressing issue, as Dewey was long dead, unlike the very much alive Pershing). However, was this accepted by other countries? By the time of his death in 1948, Pershing would have been senior (by time in rank, at least) to any British Field Marshal; but when he was promoted to General of the Armies in 1919, would the British have considered senior to, e.g. Haig, promoted to Field Marshal two years previously? Similarly, would they consider Dewey superior to an Admiral of the Fleet? — Franey 11:57, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)