Talk:Wernher von Braun

Contents

1 Early Life 2 Urban legend? 3 Compromise re: Oppenheimer 4 Plagiarism? 5 New Biography 6 Additional information 7 A hero in the US? 8 Antarctica 9 Confusion in dates 10 Category sorting

Early Life

I doubt that Wernher von Braun got a Bachelor of Science degree. At that time, there were no Bachelor degrees in Germany, just Masters and PhDs. So either he got a Master's or no degree. -- An Austrian

Urban legend?

I tried to add this true story about Von Braun, but it seems it doesn't get immediate approval:

«Because of the destructions caused by his V2's, Von Braun has been considered a long time as a war criminal in Britain. One day, as Von Braun was coming back from a trip in Europe in a US plane, he felt the plane go down. He was then informed by the crew that the plane was about to land in Britain for refueling. He explained his status to the pilot, who aborted the landing. Soon after this incident, US diplomats worked to remove Von Braun's war criminal status in Europe.»

Who objects to this addition ? --Anonymous

I do not, but apparently Guanaco does. I might have edited it a bit for NPOV and perhaps put it in a less conspicuous place than a ==War criminal== heading, particularly because he's regarded much more as a hero of the space program in Huntsville, Alabama and the United States.

Thanks. I have added the story as part of his NASA career, and added the hero status for fairness. --Anonymous

«As a figure of the space exploration program, Von Braun got to travel across the world. One day, as he was coming back from a trip in Europe in a US plane, he felt the plane go down. He was then informed by the crew that the plane was about to land in Britain for refueling. Because of the destructions caused by his V2's, Von Braun was still considered a war criminal in Britain at the time. He explained his status to the pilot, who aborted the landing. Soon after this incident, US diplomats worked to remove Von Braun's war criminal status in Europe. He's regarded as a hero of the space program in Huntsville, Alabama and the United States.»

I've taken it out again until some credible sources and references are provided, this has the feel of an urban legend.--GeneralPatton 13:50, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC) In fact in 1945 the British offered him full support for continuation of his work, but he turned them down and instead decided to work for the USA, whom he felt had the greatest resources to pull off a space program. He and his associates even spent some time in Britain during 1945, especially Dornberger!--GeneralPatton 13:56, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Countries can have a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde approach to dealing with smart people who helped the enemy. The United States brought rocket scientist Arthur Rudolph to the country from Germany as part of Project Paperclip, had him design the Saturn V, then essentially kicked him out of the country (then Canada kicked him out) because of his participation at Peenemünde. -- ke4roh 16:12, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Arthur Rudolph's problems primarily came from the allegations that he personally mistreated and sadistically abused slave laborers, that he was a staunch anti-semite even in the US and stayed an unrepentant neo-nazi until the end. --GeneralPatton 01:21, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Let's see: when was he granted immunity, and when did he travel to Europe before that ? If he did, did he ever land in Britain ? --Anonymous

a. Sign what you write, b. I still see no credible sources and references. --GeneralPatton 01:40, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the FBI dossier (http://foia.fbi.gov/vonbraun.htm) can substantiate the claim. Since it's big, I recommend we split it up and loook at it in sections. -- ke4roh 16:38, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• Reviewers of sections:
  • § 4 - mostly about nutty fan mail, no mention of travel - ke4roh
  • § 5 - more kooks, and on p. 48 (continued in §6) an interesting story "Translation and Abstracts of The Secret of Huntsville: The True Career of the Rocket Baron Wehrner von Braun by Julius Mader, reprented in Forum, East Berlin Newspaper for Students and the Young Intelligencia, Nos 36/49, Vol. 16, 1962. Copyright by Kongress Publishing Co, 1962." Aside from its wild propaganda about Sheik von Braun and his exploits of the poor Huntsvillians, it starts off with a decent description of Huntsville in 1962. -- ke4roh
  • § 6 - Mader purportedly quotes von Braun: "I believe my school education was useless. I attended the French Gymnasium in Berlin where only French was spoken .... My weakness was in the field of mathematics. But I flunked not only in mathematics, but also in physics." He says the quote is from a West Berlin Newspaper: Spandauer, September 17, 1959. For some perspective, Mader writes §6 p. 45 "The von Brauns, representitives of the imperialistic ruling class, were unable to change the outcome of the first and second world war, they neither succeeded with treachery and intrigue nor war rockets. They were unable to stop the lawful evolution of mankind towards socialism and are now completely unable to stop this trend even by American nuclear weapons. They are marching along the losers' road of history, chased by the the scorn of peoples whom they injured or decimated." Most of § 6 is Mader's writing. - ke4roh
  • § 7 - p. 28: Golos Rodiny (Voice of the Homeland) No. 12 (411) February 1960 reports on Von Braun's testimony before a congressional committee (translated from English to Russian and back): WvB said he "'would not be surprised' if this year the Russians would place a man in orbit around the earth. ... von Braun 'doubts very much' that the United States could overtake [the Soviet Union] by 1964, even taking into consideration new funds allotted for a big space rocket 'Saturn'." - ke4roh

The whole article is biaised. No real mention of war criminal allegations. Type "Von Braun war criminal" in Google and see by yourself. I don't care whether the allegations are true or not, the debate is significant enough to be mentionned directly in this article. Also, where is the quote about French slaves coming from ? --Anonymous

Why don't you identify yourself, it seems to me that you are a persistent troll. FBI file does not mention any of your allegations. Even the communist controlled East German press didn’t accuse him of the allegations you write. Please state your agenda, the statement "don't care whether the allegations are true or not" shows you do have one.--GeneralPatton 12:37, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I Googled "Wernher von Braun" "war criminal" and got 333 results, many discussing Von Braun in conjunction with others who faced more serious charges like Arthur Rudolph. The most notable result I found was ISBN 0275962172, Wernher von Braun: The Man Who Sold the Moon by Dennis Piszkiewicz. I have not read the book, though I might. Amazon reviewers had mixed takes on it, many charging the author with bias or vendetta. Other pages alluded to his potential to be a war criminal but did not give specifics. -- ke4roh 14:55, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC)

Well, Google "Bill Clinton" "war criminal" and you'll get 12,200 hits. But allegations are just that, allegations, especially since von Braun was constantly heavily scrutinized due to his prominence both before and after the war, but no serious evidence was ever produced, if there was anything serious, the East German STASI or the media would have dug it up, but they didn't. We might as well include the infamous “Clinton hit list” in wiki then if we’re going to cover dubious allegations. --GeneralPatton 02:08, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In fact, "Ronald Reagan" "war criminal" gives me 7,120 hits, "Winston Churchill" "war criminal" 2,310 hits, "Harry Truman" "war criminal" 1,510 hits, "Kennedy" "war criminal" 10,900 hits, "Kissinger" "war criminal" 11,300 hits, "Nixon" "war criminal" 8,840 hits, "Ariel Sharon" "war criminal" 16,400 hits, "Wesley Clark" "war criminal" 5,340 hits, "Colin Powell" "war criminal" 9,000 hits, "Rumsfeld" "war criminal" 18,300 hits, "John Kerry" "war criminal" 9,720 hits, and "Bush" "war criminal" gives me the whooping 70,200 hits, even the "pope" "war criminal" gives 8,410 hits on Google.--GeneralPatton 02:22, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thank god Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not american propaganda. He is a regarded as a war criminal, sorry to bring the bad news, General Patton. --Anonymous

Would you please identify yourself? And then give some attribution. The Germans are supersensitive about WW2 yet they still regard him as a great hero.--GeneralPatton 03:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Considering your level of language (ref. "troll"), I don't think any fair amount of discussion will help you understand the NPOV concept, and have it applied to this case. I suggest the article to be frozen until unbiaised Wikipedia administrators decide which way to go. --Anonymous

I am German and I am pretty sure that there are very few Germans that regard Wernher von Braun as a hero. I also think that this article is biased, it might be helpful to include some of the information from the German Wikipedia. E.g. in my opinion it should be mentioned that there were forced laborers at Peenemuende and that Wernher von Braun actually requested more of them so he must have been aware of that fact. It might be true that he had to join NSDAP and SS in order to keep working however he knew he was working on a weapon (that’s what the nazi regime paid him for) and he could have decided not to develop it in the first place. However, he collaborated as long as he could carry on with his research. I believe that he is the perfect example of a scientist that does not care about moral obligations at all but that is only interested in his work.R.C.B. 09:22, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Just as a reminder, here is two of the policies we have to follow as part of Wikipedia:

• First, because there are a huge variety of participants of all ideologies and nationalities Wikipedia is committed to making its articles as unbiased as possible. There has been criticism that the systemic bias of individual participants can color the neutrality of an article. However, the aim is not to write articles from a single objective point of view — this is a common misunderstanding of the policy — but rather, to fairly present all views on an issue, attributed to their adherents in a neutral way. Of course, establishing a consensus on what views should be thus attributed can often require much (sometimes heated) discussion and debate.
• Avoid profanity (words or images that could be considered offensive by typical Wikipedia readers), but not at the expense of accuracy. We strive to create a serious encyclopedia with brilliant prose.

Sbossineau

Sbossineau, well, i see you are new here, this being your first and only post thus far, so welcome.--GeneralPatton 22:05, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Compromise re: Oppenheimer

I am satisfied with the latest edits from General Patton. Thanks ! 66.25.49.10

Great then, well, if only the people at Robert Oppenheimer would feel the same as i do. Personally I do agree that wiki is not Hero worship, but we really need to sort out the facts and present it with the least POV possible. I always seek a compromise, always.--GeneralPatton 01:29, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you want to talk about the ethical ambiguity and opinons towards von Braun, do it IN THE ARTICLE. The first paragraph is supposed to just be a BRIEF summary. Oppenheimer does not belong in von Braun's brief summary -- he has nothing to do with him in the slightest. --Fastfission 17:46, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I agree with you, but does user 66.25.49.10 who's been insisting on it agree? --GeneralPatton 21:33, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Fastfission 100%. The jab at Oppenheimer is out of place and not at all NPOV. --mav 21:21, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Plagiarism?

This article has a few paragraphs word-for-word which are also found at http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/history/VonBraun/Germany.html. I don't know Wikipedias stance on plagiarism (or which way this incident went). However there has definately been some copying.

Because the text at liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov is a work of the United States government, it is in the public domain worldwide. Copying is thus permitted. -- ke4roh 03:28, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

I was the one that originally copied the text from MSFC. I did it because it was a good public domain source, but it does have some serious POV problems (i.e. it tends to play down the war crime charges) which I'm glad to see that people are fixing. Roadrunner 18:12, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

New Biography

I have this eveving spoken with an author whom has written a new work on von Braun which will, I believe, treat von Braun's life evenhandedly, rather than being a glowing report or a damning indictment. The author has spoken with several first-hand resources, and has read deeply and widely on von Braun, and resides in the Huntsville, AL community. Upon it's publication in early 2005, I will cite it as a reference and draw upon it as an authoritative voice in von Braun's life. K. L. Bardon 00:02, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

Additional information

This was added by user:Kevin L. Bardon on December 19. It needs a copyedit at the very least and seems to be not NPOV.Evil Monkey → Talk 05:10, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

Additional information

An OMGUS (Office of the Military Governor - United States ) document dated April 23, 1947 states that von Braun joined the SS horseback riding school in fall 1933, that he joined the Nazi party May 1, 1937 and that he held four ranks in the SS from may 1940 to June 28, 1943 when he was awarded the highest rank of Sturmbannfuerer (SS Major). Von Braun's comments on those memberships was "I was officially demanded to join the National Socialist Party. At this time (l937) I was already technical director of the Army Rocket Center at Peenemuende... My refusal to join the party would have meant that I would have to abandon the work of my life. Therefore, I decided to join. My membership in the party did not involve any political activities...in spring l940, one SS-Standartenfuerer (SS Colonel) Mueller... looked me up in my office at Peenemuende and told me, that Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler had sent him with the order to urge me to join the SS. I called immediately on my military superior... Major-General Dr. Dornbeger. He informed me that...if I wanted to continue our mutual work, I had no alternative but to join." (The reader must bear in mind von Braun's comments were made after he had been brought to the United States.)

There exists no documentation or record, public or private, that von Braun directly repudiated and/or disavowed Nazism or expressed any regret for his participation. The closest he ever came to such was in l965, when a group that named itself the Amicale des Camps de Dora Ellrich (Friends of Deportees of the Dora-Ellrich Camps) accused von Braun of being partly responsible for the suffering of inmates of the concentration camp where the V-2 was built. The French magazine Paris Match asked von Braun to answer his accusers. Von Braun replied on April 26, l966: "As much as I understand their bitterness, I am appalled by their false accusations aimed at me." He went on to explain that the U.S. government had cleared him, how a war crimes tribunal had investigated the atrocities at Dora, that neither investigation had found anything that adversely reflected on him. About the crimes at Dora, he wrote: "I felt ashamed that things like this were possible in Germany, even under a war situation where national survival was at stake".

There are three different versions of von Braun's arrest. André Sellier, a survivor of Mittelbau-Dora Concentration Camp and a French historian, offers as good an explanation as any. It is summarized as follows: Himmler called WvB, whom was already a SS officer, to come to his Hochwald HQ in east Prussia sometime February 1944. Himmler recommended WvB work more closely with Krammer to solve the problems of the V-2. WvB claimed to have replied that the problems were merely technical and he was confident that Dornberger would help him. WvB had apparently been under surveillance since October by the SD, which was creating a report on he and his colleagues Riedel and Grotrupp. They were said to have expressed regret at an engineer's house one evening they were not working on a spaceship, and that they had the feeling that the war was not going well. A young and very attractive female dentist denounced them for their comments. WvB was arrested and on February 22 taken to Stettin, where he was imprisoned for two weeks, not knowing the charges leveled against him. Only through the Abwehr in Berlin that Dornberger was able to obtain WvB's conditional release. Speer also apparently intervened on their behalf as well.

A hero in the US?

Is it certain that von Braun is really regarded as a hero in the US? I was born in the US in 1963, and I think he was a Nazi pig. No contributions to the US space program could possibly make up for the deaths of the slave laborers producing his V2 rockets during WW2. Is the unqualified statement in the intro paragraph really warranted?--165.189.91.148 21:54, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"...and I think he was...". Well, what you personally might think of the subject in question (applying to any Wikipedia article) is perhaps not the information one should base an encyclopedia on. As for von Braun's status in the US, the contemporary feelings for him in the general population was definitely positive--in the media of the time he was presented as the archetypal "rocket scientist", responsible for keeping the US space program abreast of the Soviet counterpart. The negatively laden information about his role in Nazi Germany's V2 rocket project was played down by the US Govt during the 1950s and 60s, and didn't seriously surface in the media until the early 70s. --Wernher 12:00, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• • Yes, information about the Nazi crimes at Dora didn't come out until much later, but the article doesn't say "he was regarded as a hero" , it says he is regarded as a hero. Is that accurate? Quale 20:41, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Any accusations of Warcrimes are typical Jewish lies. (--User:24.141.214.87/talk)

Antarctica

There is a gap in the article. It leaves out the time of the moon landing and his time in Antarctica. Why is that? Is there no info? It seems a very important point in his biography. Ben (talk) 11:49, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Confusion in dates

The surrender paragraph follows after the arrest paragraph, but the arrest appears to have

taken place in 1944 and the surrender surely was in 1945(?). But the surrender paragraph implies that the surrender took place immediately after release from a 2 week captivity. Can someone please clear that up?

Category sorting

The constant changing of the category sorting on this article has prompted me to raise the issue at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Category sorting as it appears that currently there is no guideline in Wikipedia for this issue. Evil Monkey∴Hello 08:54, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Common sense would be the easiest guideline. Where are people going to find him the easiest? Maybe less than 1% would look first under the B's. Of the 99% who'd look first under V, maybe only 10% would think to look under B if they didn't find him under V. In a short list, they might find him by accident. Just look at this talk page; when he is referred to by surname only, it is always "von Braun" and never "Braun" alone. Gene Nygaard 10:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid the 'common sense' refrered to above is somewhat subjective (read: Anglo(?)-American)... Your argument/observations on the eyeball search-behavior of many readers may be quite correct, however, and so I wonder whether we should let the majority(?) of readers go on with their erroneous(?) alphabetic search ordering in this and similar cases, or whether we should make a correction/educational effort by, e.g., making dummy articles like "Von Braun, Wernher, see Braun, Wernher von", categorized under 'V'. Or, more generally, just include an article "Von X-type names, see X" into affected categories. (By all means please suggest better solutions; these are just illustrative.)

As for the surname referral fact, that does not influence the alphasort issue. Yes, he is referred to as 'Von Braun', but, still, 'von'-based names are correctly sorted under their respective 'main names'. In countries where many people have such names it doesn't make much sense to have them all piled up under 'V' (German-speaking countries, the Netherlands, and more).

Nevertheless, if the sorting practice (and perhaps even grammatical sorting rule) in English is of the type you argue for (and that may indeed be the right one; I myself haven't looked into the details), we might do the opposite of my abovementioned suggestions, and rather put in a 'B'-sorted article "Braun, Wernher von; see Von Braun, Wernher" (i.e. main article sorted under 'V'). --Wernher 02:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

German people are not sorted by predicates. His family name is Braun, "von" is the predicate. And yes, common sense would be the easiest guideline. Everyone perhaps except Mr. Nygaard would look under "Braun" and not even think that someone has been so stubborn ignorant that they have sorted him under "von". (I also don't believe that Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is indexed as "of the United Kingdom, Elizabeth II".) --Anonymous

Quoting from above: << making dummy articles like "Von Braun, Wernher, see Braun, Wernher von", >> Yes, at the very least, this must be done if he is to be alphabetized under B. German usage has no bearing, in my judgment: he spent half his life (and most of his professional life) in the U.S., and he was an American citizen. The Library of Congress online catalog returns 18 books if you look for VON BRAUN, WERNHER, but none if you omit the VON or move it after the BRAUN or the WERNHER. Cubdriver

This is rubbish. He was a prominent researcher in Germany. Where he lived later in his carrier is irrelevant. He was German. The Germans are one of the ethnic groups living in America (originally Indian territory). Since he was German and not English, German usage must be followed.

Nonsense, whoever you are. When he moved, the nature of his name changed. He never was indexed in any English-language phone book under B, he is not indexed under B in the Social Security Death Index, he is not indexed under B in the Library of Congress Card Catalog.

Compare the rules for naming articles, where the rule is how the person is best known in English.

Furthermore, as was pointed out in the village pump discussion, the Chicago Manual of Style uses uses him as an example. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Chicago_Manual_of_Style_sez) Gene Nygaard 08:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)