Talk:Tom Bombadil
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He speaks poetically, in iambs.
Actually, it's not 5 beats per line, but 4 beats. Here is the pattern as I remember it.
DUM DITTY DITTY DUM
DUM DITTY DUM DUM
Interestingly, he sings that way when walking through the woods, and he talks that way most of the time. Once, when I had way too much time on my hands, I wrote out all his non-song speeches to analyze the meter. Although a lot of it fit the 4-beat pattern above, he occasionally lapsed into regular prose; if I recall correctly, that was when he was being most serious, as about the Ring or other dangers to Frodo.
--User:Ed Poor 05:56 Aug 19, 2002 (PDT)
Tom is a deeper character than is commonly apprehended, and I was sorely disappointed that he was left out of the movie. Frodo's encounter with the Dark Forest, Old Man Willow, the Barrow-wights and Tom Bombadil really sets the stage for the whole rest of the story. It's not all about the Ring! Uncle Ed 16:04 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I agree, Ed. Director Peter Jackson's decision to omit Tom Bombadil from the film was a big disappointment. Though I still enjoyed the first two pictures immensely, I can't escape the feeling that an important member of the family was shut out of the feast. Terry User:Thseamon
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Tom Bomadil is Puck of Pooks Hill
Puck is the oldest of the Old Things. He looks like a hobbit (or vice versa). He is the god of Oak, Ash and Thorn. His attitude towards Weyland, the Smith of the Gods, is like Tom Bombadil's to Sauron's minions. The story he tells about how the People of the Hills "flitted" is the story of how the magic disappeared from Middle Earth.
Tom is Adam
I have heard that a New Zealand Anglican bishop has written a thesis about religious symbolism in Lord of the Rings. Apparently one of the things he says is that Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's nod to the character of Adam in Abrahamic religions.
It is a very interesting idea, and the most convincing I have heard. There are some things that click into place immediately. Tom, like Adam, is the first, and fatherless. Tom's domain that he won't happily leave is the Garden of Eden. Tom's wife is named "Goldberry" which might be a reference to the story of Eve and the forbidden fruit.
How does this fit into Tolkien's mythology? Well it almost sounds like Tom was the first of the Children of Illuvatar, neither elf nor man, but a prototype who was there even before the Valar decended from the heavens. Maybe he was there to hear the song of the Ainur, which would explain how he knows Old Man Willow's song.
As for counterarguments, I believe Treebeard claims to be the oldest living creature in Middle Earth. This must just be wrong, weren't the Ents created to fend of the threat to the trees from the Dwarves? I can't remember I'll have to look it up.
Anyway I'll get some more references on this theory and add to the article. Are there any major counterarguments I need to mention? Ben Arnold 05:35, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- It does not fit into Tolkien's legendarium at all. He was most likely the embodiment of the spirit of Arda itself, some kind of genius loci. Thus, he wouldn't be exactly a "living creature" (just like Gandalf, who was a Maia, so he was in fact even older than Arda itself), and Fangorn would also be right. The Middle-earth version of story of Adam and Eve and the original sin was the Tale of Adanel.
- Ausir 11:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Well I'm not as confident as you that his nature is so clearly known. I agree though, if Adam is represented somewhere else it does poke a big hole in this theory. Ben Arnold 20:58, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- About the Ents: I vaguely remember that they were created in response to the Dwarves, but I also remember that the Dwarves were placed in stasis until the First and Second Peoples (Elves and Humans) awoke. So the Ents could have been the first sentient race to wander about on Arda, before the awakening of the Elves.
- Maybe someone had a hicup during the Song and created Tom by mistake? crazyeddie 06:50, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Tom just is
It would be impossible, without direct written evidence from Prof. Tolkien himself, to determing Tom's nature; but having said that, I've always thought of ol' Tom as the anti-Ungoliant. Wheras the Ungoliant existed to feed and destroy, Tom is there to nurture and help. The ring had no power over him as the ring tended to amplify the wielder's power and ambition--but Tom had enough power already and had no ambition to do anything other than to just be--as Goldberry remarked. But even my interpretation is flawed without direct proof, as I said. So, Tom remains as Tolkien left him: the ultimate mistery. But I disagree with links to Adam or Abraham (as previously mentioned) for the simple fact that Tolkien hated allegory in all it's forms (his own words show this), he wouldn't have added allegory when he hated it. I think that's really all that can be said on the topic.
- Have you read Tree and Leaf? I tend to be a bit skeptical of Tolkien's professed distaste for allegory...I sometimes feel that he actually just defined the word a bit more narrowly than we do today. Anyway, I don't thin it's the place of this article for us to be presenting our own views and research on the subject. Better to give an overview of the kind of debates and the facts that are available. Some of the supplemental material in the external links is as extensive as anyone could ever wish to read! --Aranel 21:42, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Tolkien hated allegories, but he loved myths and legends. He didn't write the Lord of the Rings as a morality play, but he did incorporate elements of existing myths and legends into it. It isn't too far fetched that he based some elements on the myths and legends of Adam or Abraham, although I don't think he did so in this instance. Tom, as Tolkein himself more or less said, simply doesn't fit into the larger mythos of Middle Earth. I doubt we'll ever know. I agree with Aranel that it isn't a good idea to be presenting our own views in the article, but it is fun to debate them here! crazyeddie 19:15, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wording
"puzzled even erudite fans" The word "erudite" means well-spoken, not "fanatic" or "avid". I suggest we change it.
- Well, "fanatic" isn't at all close to the meaning I think was intended, nor is "avid" really. I think the intent here is something like "knowledgeable" or "learned". But really, is "erudite" that far from the mark? The Oxford English Dictionary definition says nothing about "well-spoken", but lists its most current meaning as "learned, scholarly", which seems right on target. The dictionary comments that in this context the word is "now somewhat rare except in sarcastic use", but from the sound of it, you might consider that sarcastic overtone to be well deserved. : ) --Steuard 21:10, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
- I would agree that the intent is definitely to refer to the more scholarly fans, of whom there are many. (We are not talking about Pokémon fandom here. Tolkien fans prior to the movies were often a fairly scholarly bunch.) What is really meant is, "this is still up in the air even among people who have studied it extensively". "Fantatic" is definitely not meant, and neither is "avid". There are plenty of "avid" or "fanatical" movie fans who think that Legolas is cute and have never heard of Ainur. -Aranel ("Sarah") 22:35, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the more advanced fan, or the most authoritive fan would be better. Does anyone else get the feeling from reading about Tom that he was Tolkiens bread and butter? Tolkien went out of his way to make him very subtle, but very sophisticated when attention is paid.Cúchulainn 02:58, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)
Queen Beruthiel's Cats
I've read The Inklings before and Tolkien did offer an explanation about the cats to CS Lewis. He mentioned that Queen Beruthiel was a Black Numenorean who sent her cats out on hunting expeditions. Naturally after each sortie they always came back. Just thought I should point it out.
TheSeez
- In fact, the full story is available in Unfinished Tales (though it's in a rather obscure place; check the index). If you haven't read that book, you should: it's got a lot of fantastic stuff in it.--Steuard 17:27, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah I have the book but I've never noticed that story in it. Thanks for telling me, I'll check it out now.