Talk:Timeline of Arda

This page is an impressive piece of work considering the scale of it. Jor 00:48, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Conventions for Middle-earth dates

I'm bringing this up here because it seems like an appropriately central place, although it doesn't come up so much in this article.

I'd like to establish a Wikipedia standard for Middle-earth dates. Not a mandated format, of course, but a preferred one.

This is what I have come up with so far:

In the Appendices to the The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien consistently uses the format "T.A. 3019", "S.R. 1419", etc. This same format is used in "The Calendars" in Peoples - when it is used at all, and I'll get to that.

I recommend, then, that we adopt that as the preferred format. Wikipedia seems to prefer "AD xxxx" or "xxxx CE" (or "xxxx AD"), without the punctuation, but Tolkien always used it and I don't think the abbreviations FA, SA, FA, and SR are really commonly understood enough to dispense with the clear indication that they are abbrevations. Also, in general, the "A.D. xxxx" style (putting the "A.D." before the year) is older and is still used in academic and formal contexts—surely this was Tolkien's influence for putting the indicator before the date, and I think it's fair to continue with this usage.

It is, of course, probably more important to link to First Age, Second Age, Third Age, or Fourth Age (when appropriate, Shire Calendar for explanation of Shire Reckoning) than to use any particular format. Linking avoids ambiguity of references to "F.A."

However, we also don't need to include these little identifiers every single time we mention a date. Tolkien hardly ever used this format at all—he would more often spell out "Third Age 3019" and then proceed to refer to plain dates, once the time frame had been established. I do think we need to use the abbeviations for purposes of clarity when rapidly jumping between time frames from article to article (since most articles are by definition lacking in immediate context, it's important to specify).

I am not proposing that we go through all Middle-earth articles and change them to match this format—just that we decide on a standard that we will generally try to use. (With a goal towards developing a document that explains conventions for Middle-earth articles, to make their editing more accessible.)

Questions? Comments? Complaints? Suggestions? --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 15:07, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I recommend using a mixed format: for individual dates (as in, not lists): [[Third Age|T.A.]] 3019. For listings, such as lists of rulers of a series of birth and death dates, add a header dates are given in years of the [[Third Age]], unless otherwise noted. to them, and discard T.A. notes. Where Fourth Age years are introduced in these lists, link to them like T.A. 3017–[[Fourth Age|F.A.]] 50.. This is closest to Tolkien's own style without being disruptive. Under no circumstances should individual years be linked. [[User:Anárion| (Anárion)]] 15:18, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Right—we certainly don't want to confuse Middle-earth dates with "real world" dates! (I suppose a person could link dates to the timeline article if they were really obsessive-compulsive.) You've just summed up rather nicely what I think would make a reasonable policy. Although that I think, within an article, once you have established that dates are, say, Third Age, it isn't necessary to stick "T.A." in front of every single date (at least, Tolkien didn't).--[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 15:40, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agreed there, if the header is present individual dates do not need the T.A./F.A. prefix. [[User:Anárion| (Anárion)]] 15:43, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

EasyTimeline

This page has to be a candidate for an EasyTimeline project. I'm willing to have a go if no-one else is? --Phil | Talk 15:16, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

Seems really cool. Realms of Arda also comes to mind as a good project for this! {Ανάριον} 15:29, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)