Talk:Theory

jan 29 04 - morimom

re the last entry that talks about homeopathy:

you say

"Likewise, other claims such as homeopathy are also not theories, but pseudoscience."

i would suggest that there is a confusion of terms here:

- claims - theories - science/pseudoscience

they're three different kinds of apples and oranges.

as for your sentence, IMHO:

1 - homeopathy is not a claim. it's far too complex for that. it is best described as a system, or a complementary healing method. (whether you or i think whether that method works is a different story)

2 - a claim isn't really a theory. a claim is a statement of (supposed) fact or truth, and it does not need any proof. (that's why we then ask "how can you substantiate that claim?") a theory always leaves room for some uncertainty and improvement.

3 - pseudoscience is a laden term which i suggest should be used with great caution. in fact, your assertion that "homeopathy is a pseudoscience" is an unsubstantiated claim! i think it would be more prudent to say that homeopathy is by some *considered* to be a pseudoscience.

you may want to rewrite your statement in light of these comments.

isabella

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Challenge accepted, but not tonight . . . later! Robert Merkel

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This is a very clear description of "theory," but it is limited to "theory" in positivist science. I don't think this definition of theory applies to hermeneutics or critical theory. Perhaps people who have worked on articles on these topics can help develop this one? SR

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Good point. One note is that I think the definition of theory used here is not restricted to postivist views of science but rather include science in general. I don't think that non-positivists would disagree with the meaning of theory used here. Where the disagreements come from is where and how theories arise and their relationship if any to objective reality.

well, I guess there are two issues. I meant to raise the point that there are non-scientists -- but scholars nonetheless, who attempt to bring to their work some sort of rigor and internal consistency -- who have and use theories, and define theory differently. I think you are raising another but equally important point that some people might characterize scientific theory in slighly different ways.

But I suspect that critical theorists, and certainly those of a post-modernist bent, might appeal more to Wittgenstein's notion of "language game" to account for theories. Is this consistent with the definition here? How would a pragmatist (or perhaps, better, a pragmatacist) define theory? Is there a sense to talking about "Nietzsche's theories?" If so, is one using theory the same way as in this article? SR

The below is from [Scientific theories]. It needs to be merged into this entry:

What is a theory?

In common lingo a theory is little more than a guess or a hypothesis. But in science, a theory is much more than that. A theory is an established paradigm that explains all of the data we have and offers valid predictions that can be tested. In science, a theory can never be proven true, because we can never assume we know all there is to know. Instead, theories remain standing until they are disproven, at which point they are thrown out altogether or modified slightly.

Some examples of current scientific theories are gravity, quantum mechanics, and evolution. Some other theories that have been disproved are those such as Lamarckism and the geocentric universe theory. Sufficient evidence has risen to declare these theories false.

So, the next time you hear someone arguing with you about evolution, saying, "Well, it's just a theory," remind them, that in science, theories are equivalent to truth. Scientists aren't just guessing that gravity or evolution are true. They are the best theories we have for explaining the millions of data all around us.

A good example of a non-scientific theory is Intelligent Design. Creationists are using it as a wedge to try to get alternative teaching put into schools and such, but the truth is that Creationism is not a theory at all. By saying "Goddidit" as an explanation for every natural phenomenon, we are not predicting anything, and so the theory is useless. We wouldn't have built computers by now if Benjamin Franklin had said two hundred years ago, "God makes electricity, and that is that", instead of actually figuring out the naturalistic explanation.

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I took out

Creationists are using it as a wedge to try to get alternative teaching put into schools, but Creationism is not a theory at all. Saying "Goddidit" as an explanation for every natural phenomenon does not predict anything, and is thus useless for science and not considered a theory.

Although I personally agree with it, its's a bit of a rant. And the part about creationists and schools is probably only relevant in the US.

I think the two sections duplicate each other a bit. Merging might require more than just cut 'n paste.

Agreed, it is a bit of a rant, but it still makes a point. Intelligent Design has no testable predictions to be made and therefore can not be a theory. At most it is a hypothesis. So, I've removed it from this article and suggest it be placed at the end of Hypothesis. The other option would be to keep it here but put it under a separate subheading, eg "Non-scientific theories" or "Hypotheses" to prevent confusion. --brian0918™ 21:55, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree as well. Intelligent design is already rightly included in the list at pseudoscience; surely that would preclude it from being included here... --FeloniousMonk 01:23, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A list of theories?

There are WAY more theories than those under the "See also" section. I was going to add a bunch from psychology, but I didn't know what the standards are for importance. Anyone agree that perhaps a "list of theories by subject" page should be made, or just done on the bottom of this page? I mean, we have a List of people who died with tortoises on their heads. :P --Tothebarricades.tk 09:34, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Evolution not in the same league as relativity

I removed evolution from the list discussed in the middle part of the article [but not the list at the bottom] for two reasons.

First, it does not satisfy

3.has survived many critical real world tests that could have proven it false,

4.makes predictions that might someday be used to disprove the theory.

Furthermore, while evolution is linked to theories that might satisfy those theories, the theories that it is linked to often fail. For example, the theory that rocks of older age lie below locks of newer age is falsifiable, but it is often found to be wrong.

The second reason is whatever predictions that evolution does purportedly make are nothing similar in accuracy or testability as either general or special relativity or quantum mechanics.

It is fitting, here, to quote the introduction to a reprinting of Origin of Species. Writing the introduction in 1971, British evolutionist,L.H. Matthews writes

The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory--is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the thoery of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation--both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof.

Phantym 18:26, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

It is in the same league, but it is biology and not physics. You obviously don't understand what a theory is - your quote is absurd, theories are not proven. And the Principle of superposition remains valid in sedimentary geology despite the assertions of your flood geologist friends. So go edit your creationist article and leave science alone. Bye, Vsmith 23:35, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I gave my reason for it not being in the same league, in particular its lack of predictive element and lack of testability. Throwing names around and other invective does not change this. As for the absurdity of the quote, that is something you will have to take up with the British evolutionist who said it. There are instances of theories in biology that are falsifiable and give testable predictions, but evolution is not one of them.

I fail to see how evolution fails to satisfy 3.has survived many critical real world tests that could have proven it false, 4.makes predictions that might someday be used to disprove the theory.

What critical test has it failed? Doesn't it make predictions? -- Ec5618 20:14, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Ec5618, for at least responding rationally. On the contrary, many scientists have indicated that one cannot think of evolution as a theory because it either fails to predict things or cannot be falsifiable. Others have decided that Evolution is a postulate, axiom, or [in their words] a fact, while natural selection may be a theory.

Gould, for example, (as well as a slough of other scientists I could name if you really need me too) is in this category. Evolution certainly does not predict things in the same way as quantum mechanics or relativity does. A physicist can pre-dict the outcome of an experiment or the outcome of an observation of a supernova, etc. decide beforehand what would be considered viable answers from the model, and then [and only then] see if the data agree. Evolution allows no such thing, it explains observables and its mechanisms [like natural selection] can attempt to explain why certain things occur, but that is very much different.

Perhaps another way of putting this is that every physicist on the earth will agree that Quantum mechanics and relativity fully match the definition of a scientific theory in its fullness, and that statement is patently not true of biologists. Some [like Gould] state it as simply a fact. Some [for example Harris] declare it a postulate which one should not be forced to prove (certainly taking it outside the realm of a theory), others like Patterson [Of the British historical Museum] have gone on record attacking the notion that evolution is a theory at all, French Zoologist Grasse spends an entire book not attacking evolution itself but attacking modern understandings of evolution, declaring that there is little we do, or possibly can, understand about it. Murray Eden attacks evolution for being too plastic, suggesting that it can be formed to fit anything after the fact (suggesting that it is not reasonably falsifiable). I could go on and on.

Why not discuss Hardy Weinberg Equillibrium, or Mendelian genetetics, or any of a whole host of theories that are predictive in nature that no one contends is not a full theory.

Phantym 05:20, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I considered changing "evolution" in the article to "natural selection", but after reading Evolution I think that would be inappropriate. When scientists speak of "the theory of evolution", they mean the general idea that all species on the planet descend from a common ancestor, and arise through descent with modification. They do indeed disagree on the source of the modifications, and the mechanisms of selection, but the general idea itself is sufficently precise and falsifiable that it can be considered a theory in its own right. Any of the following would cause great trouble for evolution:

• Different species having completely different biochemistry
• Different species having completely different genetic mechanisms
• Different species sharing no genetic code
• The fossil record showing that there has been no trend from lesser to greater complexity over time

But as you know, the evidence in all these areas has consistently shown the opposite, and no other theory has come remotely close to giving an alternative. This is why so many scientists believe that evolution is in the same league as, say, heliocentric theory. – Smyth\^talk 11:21, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

It also predicts transitional forms, which have failed to be found after 100 years of looking. Furthermore there are different species with completely different mechanisms, such as the entirety of eukaryotes as compared to the entirety of prokaryotes.

I'm sorry, but that is a laughable statement. Many intermediate forms have been found.

Evolutionist: 'I postulate that Z evolved from A.'

Opponent: 'Show me an intermediate form.'

Evolutionist: 'Here you go. I found one. I call it K'

Opponent: 'Ok, now produce the missing link between A and K, and K and Z.'

Evolutionist: 'Here you go. I found them. I call them F and P.'

Opponent: 'Ok, now produce the missing link between all of those.'

Ad infinitum

And the idea that procaryotes should not exist when eucaryotes exist is silly as well. 'If humans evolved from moneys, why are there still monkeys. Its entirely possible eucaryotic cells evolved from procaryotic cells. -- Ec5618 15:46, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

The above analysis of intermediary forms is an urban legend. Gould, possibly the strongest proponent of evolution on the planet, spawned an entirely different school of thought precisely because transitional forms were so uncommon. Several other biologists have lamented the lack of transitional forms in their own published papers. Biologist Lynn Margulis, famous for her theory on the origin of mitochondria in cells, also attacked neodarwinism on this exact matter.

Also, evolution is predictive, as you can predict the characteristika of fossils.--Kristjan Wager 13:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't think people have adequately responded to my main contention. If there are prominent zoologists and biologists who have publicately indicated either that evolution is now considered a postulate in the community, and another collection of zoologists, biologists, paleontologists, etc. that indicate a decided lack of confidence in evolution, what is so bad about simply changing the listed theory to one that everyone agrees is a theory? No physicist in the world will suggest that quantum mechanics is not a theory, no physicist in the world would suggest that relativity is not a theory. If you are going to list a collection of theories that fully exemplify what makes something scientific, why insist on putting one there that a reasonable number of secular scientists view in a different light? It makes no sense. Other theories are better examples. I have listed theories that are much more predictive, and much more falsifiable than evolution. These are theories that no biologist would suggest fail these tests.

Can anyone give a single reason to include a theory that prominent scientists contend is not one when there are several examples in the same field that all agree on?

As a compromise I am changing it to microevolution, which is does not suffer these flaws.

I'll agree with the compromise, as many people seem to think that evolution deals with the formation of humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, like Kent Hovind, and as there is no clear definition of either science, or theory. That evolution is a theory is hardly contested though, and should preferably be mentioned in the article, as it illustrates some of the finer points of both science and theory. -- Ec5618 15:46, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

It is mentioned at the bottom in the list of theories. However the statement That evolution is a theory is hardly contested though appears to be false. If the head of the British Museum of Natural History [which has the riches array of fossils in the world] says flat out Evolution is not a theory. That appears to be a contest. Note that I am not claiming that Patterson is a creationist or that he disagrees with evolution, but he [and others] have admitted that evolution cannot be considered a theory either because it is too plastic or unfalsifiable,etc.

Can you please provide a link to Patterson's CV? Thanks. --brian0918™ 16:36, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

It is not a CV, but I can tell you he was a paleontologist who was Senior Principle Scientific Officer in the Paleontology Department of British Museum (Natural History), London from 1962 to 1993. He died in 1998. He was a leader in a philosophy called transformed cladistics. Phantym 17:02, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Biologists who call evolution a "postulate" are merely saying that they consider it so permanently verified that they do not consider it possible for it ever to be displaced. This places it in the same league as things like "heliocentric theory" or "atomic theory", both of which were once heavily questioned but are now so strongly supported that it is impossible to imagine them ever being abandoned. Nevertheless, this does not stop them from being theories in the strict sense, even though it now seems strange to call them that.

This is not what all biologists mean when they call it a postulate. For a very clear case consider Harris' explicitly stating that evolution should be considered in a new light, where it was no longer considered a theory to be substantiated or disproved, but an axiom. This is not because Harris thinks evolution is beyond dispute. If the neo-Darwinian theory is axiomatic, it is not valid for creationists to demand proof of the axioms, and it is not valid for evolutionists to dismiss special creation as unproved as long as it is stated as an axiom Harris clearly draws a line between theory and postulate.

In fact, scientists in general never use the term postulate to refer to something that they consider impossible to disprove. If there is a theory that has held up so much that it is considered fundamental, they use the term law. Postulate has a very specific usage in mathematics and science.Phantym 16:57, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I was unable to find a source for whatever it is you're referring to. Can you provide a link? – Smyth\^talk 20:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Biologists do not indicate a decided lack of confidence in evolution. Even the creationist's best friend Michael Behe only argues against evolution at the very low biochemical levels.

And how do you suggest evolution occurs at the higher levels if it cannot even happen at the very lowest ones? And, contrary to your statements, many biologists have indicated a lack of confidence in evolution or natural selection. For example, at the Centennial Celebration of Darwinism, Olson made the following comment

There exists, as well, a generally silent group of students engaged in biological pursuits who tend to disagree with much of the current thoguht, but say and write little because they are not particularly interested, do not see that controversy over evolution is of any particular importance, or are so strongly in disagreement that it seems futile to undertake the monumental task of controverting the immense body of information and theory that exists in the formulation of modern thinking. It is, of course, difficult to judge the size and composition of this silent segment, but there is no doubt that the numbers are not inconsiderable

Zitynski, in Science Digest writes that The classical theory of evolution in its strict sense belongs to the past. Even if they do not publicly take a definite stand, almost all French specialists hold today strong mental reservations as to the validity of natural selection

More recently, K.J. Hsu, in the Journal of Seimentary Petrology, wrote Nevertheless, I agree with him that Darwinism contains 'wicked lies'; it is not a 'natural law' formulated on the basis of factual evidence, but a dogma, reflecting the dominating social philosophy of the last century. Note that this quote comes right on the tail of a discussion about how he is not for creationism either.

I could give more recent examples if you guys really want them, but the point is that you cannot claim a consensus advocating that evolution is a theory. Phantym 16:57, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Please put away your little book of creationist misquotes. In virtually all of the quotes in your book, the scientist concerned is arguing against "Darwinism" or "natural selection", not evolution. For example, K.J. Hsu, in the Journal of Sedimentary Petrology, wrote: "The rising tides of modern creationism may have been inspired by a reaction against the philosophy of social Darwinism. But creationists are barking up the wrong tree. We have plenty of evidence in the geological record for the Darwinian theory of common descent. The root of the evil is not the postulate of evolution, but the Darwinian emphasis on natural selection as a consequence of biotic interactions."

These are not scientists doubting evolution, this is them taking part in the ongoing debate about the mechanisms behind it. – Smyth\^talk 20:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

The eukaryotes/prokaryotes division does not contradict evolution. If humans and apes had different biochemistry, that would.

You said species, you didn't make any qualifications.Phantym 16:57, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Fine, I apologise for being vague, but my point still stands. – Smyth\^talk 20:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

And your comment about transitional forms is an argument against evolution's truth, not against its status as a theory. Stay on topic please. – Smyth\^talk 15:58, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

This whole "debate" is sounding more and more like original research rather than citing sources. Consider ignoring individuals whose only evidence is their word of honor. --brian0918™ 16:39, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Because some biologists feel the fossil record is less clearly in favor of evolution, they would say it should not be considered a theory anymore because it is either not well-understood enough to be given that label or that it fails parsimony (based on what evidence we have...in particular one has to come up with sophisticated microtheories to explain the dearth of transitional forms). Thus, it is very much on topic.Phantym 16:57, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

In view of the above, it seems that the word "evolution" is understood in too many ways by non-scientists, so I suggest my original idea that "natural selection" take its place. – Smyth\^talk 20:34, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Natural selection is not a theory. It is a mechanism within a theory (evolution). --brian0918™ 21:28, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, what about "Darwinism"? – Smyth\^talk 22:11, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

No, cancel that, the sentence in question is a list of "established theories", and although Darwinism is very widely accepted there are biologists who seriously doubt it. This is not the case for the more general theory of evolution, which says that species arise from descent with modification but is no more specific than that about the mechanisms involved. – Smyth\^talk 22:48, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

What compromise? The section is about scientific theory - not about religion or pseudoscience dreams or beliefs. Evolution is a valid theory of biology. Vsmith 23:36, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

You have failed to answer my basic criticism. THere are theories that are not disputed by biologists, there are theories that give much better predictions that are much more easily tested, theories that some biologists have not decided needed to be termed postulates instead. And if the senior fellow at the British Museum of Natural History states that evolution is not a theory, then I hardly see that we are in a position to dispute it. Once again I reiterate, there are several biologists who do not think evolution is a theory. I do not think you will find a single physicist that disagrees that relativity is a theory. This simple statement has not been refuted. - Phantym

Are you sure the complete quotation isn't "evolution is not a theory, it is fact"? The point is, this is one person, and not a prominent biologist. Stop reaching for straws. --brian0918™ 01:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Once again I reiterate, your argument seems to be based entirely on dishonest out-of-context misquotes. Unless you provide links which all of us can check, I'm not going to argue against that anymore. – Smyth\^talk 09:46, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Patterson of the British Museum of Natural History was misquoted - see [here (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html)]. As was Grasse - se here (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part11.html). There are virtually no scientists who doubt evolution, and close to none in fields related to evolution.--Kristjan Wager 11:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Patterson is not a prominent biologist Excuse me. Sneior fellow for paleontology for over 20 years at the museum housing the richest collection of fossils does not make you prominent? interesting. And no these are not dishonest quotes out of context. In fact, the links you mention do not in any way state that they were misquoted or even out of context!! I never said that Grasse didn't believe in evolution, I said he criticized the establishment's overconfidence in their understanding of it. And I suggest you do a fuller search on Patterson before claiming that your article supports his confidence in transitional forms. If you want to read an article about Patterson from a non-creation source, feel free to read this one (http://www.arn.org/docs/odesign/od171/colpat171.htm) which goes into detail about how agnostic Patterson is about evolution.

Please be more careful about slinging such accusations at me. I am not trying to prove evolution wrong by these quotes [which can be found in the links that incorrectly claim I am misquoting him]. I am saying the same thing I have been saying all along, which people appear not to be able to accept: scientists are much more agnostic and lacking in consensus about evolution than they are about other theories states. I have said it before and I will say it again: no physicist in the world would claim that relativity is not a theory. No scientists in the world would suggest that it should be considered a postulate or that it does not make clear predictions. There is no plasticity involved. With evolution, I have shown very important scientists who are uncomfortable with it on soem level, some who say that it must be considered a postulate rather than something that should be supported by the fossil record. Since there are other biological theories that are much less vauge, much more predictive, and about there is much less agnosticism, why insist on using evolution as an example when there are better ones? - Phantym

How can anyone claim that Patterson was not misquoted, when he himself said so?

" "I think the continuation of the passage shows clearly that your interpretation (at the end of your letter) is correct, and the creationists' is false..."[1] (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html). How can anyone choose not to ridicule or mistrust anyone who still uses this quote to defend creationism/debunk evolution? I think you are definately biased, in this case. Also, please remember to sign your comments, using the 4 tildes. -- Ec5618 21:40, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Patterson makes an important point about the overconfidence that many evolutionists have in their subjective interpretations of the facts. But neither he nor any of the other people you have named doubt that evolution, in the general sense, is the origin of species. By suggesting otherwise, you are just destroying your own credibility. – Smyth\^talk 22:59, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Because evolution is a perfect example of a theory. It's known to be a fact but just can't be observed directly over long periods. There's not one single shred of evidence against it and everything we know says its real. It's perfect. Better than relativity because it affects all life everywhere. Relativity is not directly experienced. It's a perfect example. --DanielCD 21:36, 31 May 2005 (UTC)