Talk:Theocracy
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How about some examples, present or past, of Theocracies?
Jrosenzweig, why have you dropped my additions? - 23.03.
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Iraq
I removed "Also, the Iraqis have recently elected a government based heavily on religion." - being ruled by religious parties do not qualify them for theocracy, especially when there is no role for clergy in government, and laws are largely based on secular tradition, and those that aren't are interpreted by a secular judiciary.
Iraq might become a theocracy, but they clearly aren't.
Queen of England
My understanding is that the Queen is head of the Church in England, but not of the Anglican Communion. I would be surprised to learn, for example, that Episcopalians in the USA recognize the Queen as head of an organization to which their church belongs. For that matter, I would be surprised to find that the Queen is head of the Anglican church in Canada, where she is head of state. If I am right in this, then the comments about the Queen, as applied to countries other than Britain where she is head of state, don't really make sense. And they wouldn't make sense in all of Britain either, since, although she is head of state in Wales and Scotland, she is not head of the Anglican churches there. So those remarks should apply only to England. Michael Hardy 16:55, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Makarios
Is Archbishop Makarios III considered a theocrat? During all of the time when he was head of state in Cyprus, he was also head of the Cypriot Orthodox Church, which, being autocephalous, was not subordinate to any higher church official. By the definition given in the article, he would have been a theocrat. But he did not become head of state by virtue of his office in the church, but was separately elected head of state. Moreover, during the time when he was out of office as head of state, he continued in office as head of the church. So being head of the church by itself did not make him head of state. In that respect, he appears not to have been a theocrat. So I think the definition should be emended so that it says more than just that the ruler of the church is the same person who is the ruler of the state. Michael Hardy 17:03, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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Earlier this week, I removed the link to the Republican Party because I don't accept the notion that the Republicans are, per se, theocratic. Someone reverted it. But there are definitely atheist and agnostic Republicans, and others who simply aren't very religious. I don't see how the Republicans fit the definition of theocracy as defined in the article. Perhaps this is a controversial issue that needs to be addressed in the article itself?
- On the Republican issue, should there be a reference in the definition to both the ambiguity and the derisiveness of the term? By that I mean "theocracy" is most always used falsely, and most always used insultingly. I live in Utah. Constantly I hear liberals on the news referring to Utah as a theocracy, and they always say that as an insult. Plus, with this war against terrorism, the media loves to dichotomize it into a war of democracy against theocracy, which simply isn't the case, and is barely relevant.
Constitution Party
The Constitution party in the United States is not a theocracy according to the definition. Their candidate for president in the 2004 election is not a religious leader at all, but rather a lawyer. Furthermore, the conservative Christian view that many in the Constitution party share is not a dominant religion in the US nor does it have any leaders at a national level. While there are conservative Christians who are recognized on a national level, they have no legitimate claim to represent Christians who are members of independent churches or even larger denominations. And even these so-called leaders are not running for office in the Constitution Party.
The inclusion of the Constitution Party in a list of theocratic parties smacks of a pejorative use of the term theocracy in a country in which a secular majority resents the political participation of a conservative Christian minority. There is no intellectual honesty in its inclusion.
- Grand so. The United States should be removed from the list until someone comes up with an actual theocratic party.Evertype 11:49, 2004 Dec 5 (UTC)
Other theocracies?
As a thought experiment, consider the following:
1) In country A, the head of state (King or Queen) is also the head of the official state religion.
2) In the same country, the head of state is just a figurehead.
3) Still, the political leader, e.g. the prime minister, is also a religious leader, e.g. a mullah, rabbi or priest.
Points 1) and 2) are true of the UK, but the UK is of course not a theocracy - the prime minister is not a priest, mulla or rabbi. Would a country where all 3 points are true be a theocracy?
Does it matter if the political leader is not a religious leader as a function of his political office, but trough education or a position held previous to taking political office?
Incidentally, all three points hold for Norway. Spazzm 08:01, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)
United States Theocratic Parties
It's really quite hypocritical that whoever is trying to have control over this page keeps erasing the entries for the USA Constitution and Republican Parties, as if pointing out theocracy in other nations is fine, but not pointing out our own theocratic parties isn't correct for the wikipedia.
I also see a Christian fundamentalist has posted here in the comments section to complain that "the majority is ruling over the conservative evangelicals" to "prevent them from full participation in government" what a load of horse hockey. No. These fundagelicals want to "participate in government" by unconstitutionally turning this into a "christian nation," and THAT is theocracy. The christian evangelical fundamentalists who own both the Constitution party and the Republican party are not happy with their freedom and participation to pray as they wish, not have abortions, etc. they MUST force that on the rest of the citizenry. This is not "participation" this is theocracy. Government by religion. And both the Republican Party and especially the Constitution Party have adopted religious laws and the enforcement of religious laws into their platforms.
This is not to say all Republicans are theocratic, the Republican party has been hijacked by fundagelicals. So, someday their platform including some religious laws could change back to a secular party prior to Bush. However, the Constitution party is FOUNDED on religious law and the enforcement of religious law so there should be no erasing of their entry here.
- The comments above are full of logical errors, from attacking a straw man quotation that don't appear to refer to any actual comments here, to ad hominem attacks, to unsubstantiated charges that Christians want to force non-Christians to pray, to attacking positions by calling them "horse hockey",to using non-words such as "fundagelical". Let's please raise the level of intellectual discourse on this site.
Constitution Party Should Be Listed
They promote religious laws in government and would enforce religious laws if elected.
Qualification as Theocracy
I am not sure Afghanistan belongs on the list.Saudi Arabia is a closer example of an Islamic state where all law follows Sharia and religious scholars play a recognized and central role.If the refernece intended to indicate Afghanistan under Taliban rule rather than today,that entity was known as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 21:49, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Belgian Parties
Two of them, Humanist Democratic Centre, Christian-Democratic and Flemish are not theocratic parties. I thik it's really funny they are mentioned here, but really, they equate to the German CDU. In fact, they are wussies (like most Roman Catholics). I have removed them. Phlebas 16:31, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Past Examples
Should there not be examples of theocracies in the past? Maybe the various Islamic caliphates, the Papal States (before Italian unification) or Florence under Savonarola. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples from other areas of the world that i am not aware of. SRP 12:46, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
U.S. List
These three can be justified using published cites in reputable sources. The Republican Party does not endorse the idea of a theocracy. It is arguable that some members and leaders and elected officials slide toward theocratic ideas, but not the entire Republican Party.--Cberlet 19:07, 19 May 2005 (UTC)