Talk:The Washington Post (march)

"Washington Post", "The Washington Post", or "The Washington Post March?"

Believing that the correct title of the famous Sousa march was The Washington Post, I confidently tinkered, moving The Washington Post March to The Washington Post (march), and editing articles accordingly. (E. g. in The Washington Post I wrote, "The Washington Post is also the title of a march..."

Then I decided to see whether I could notate the melody of the opening strain. And found to my chagrin that one of my three recordings simply calls it Washington Post (no "The", although some of the other marches, like "The Thunderer," had their titles given with a "The"). Another calls it The Washington Post... and a third calls it The Washington Post March.

a) Anyone know which really is the correct title of the march?

b) Anyone know a convenient way to resolve this sort of question? Googling isn't it, both because of the difficulty of constructing proper searches to pick up only one of the three variants, but also because it is obvious that writers are not punctilious about the title of this work and "most frequent" would not necessarily be "correct." For example, I'm pretty darn sure the title of the famous Strauss waltz is "On the Beautiful Blue Danube", not "The Blue Danube waltz," but both give almost identical numbers of Google hits.

Zen answers, such as that it doesn't matter because nobody cares, or that the correctness of the title of marches is not altered by adding the word "march" to a title that lacks one or removing the word "march" from a title that has one, are not needed. (And no, don't bother to tell me that the actual title of the Strauss waltz is "An Der Schonen Blauen Danau...") Dpbsmith 00:21, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of Sousa, so I checked my CD from the US Marine Corps band. On that CD, it's labeled as The Washington Post March. I realize it's not definitive, but it's a pretty solid indication IMO. I figure the Marines know what they're doing. ;-) -- Dan Carlson 15:08, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. Is that the same one I have, "Sousa Original?" from the Musical Heritage Society? On that one, about 2/3 of the titles are listed as ending with the word "march;" "Manhattan Beach March", "Saber and Spurs March","The Gridiron Club March", King Cotton March... But OTOH Frederick Fennell, who made his career recording Sousa marches with the Eastman Wind Ensemble for Mercury Records, also knows what he's doing (and is an academician), and "Hands Across the Sea" CD lists it as "Washington Post" (no "The", no "March"). Oh, and http://www.crystalrecords.com/Sousa.html is selling what they claim to be remastered versions of recordings made by the Sousa Band from 1897-1930, who should also know what they're doing, and if the Web listing is an accurate transcription of the record labels, it's "The Washington Post". The Britannica's article on Sousa refers to "The Washington Post." The Columbia Encyclopedia prefers "The Washington Post March" . Dpbsmith 16:31, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I think the most authoritative answer would be the manuscript or first published version. I don't live very near a good music library, but the next time I go through a city that has one, I would be interested in looking that up.

I wonder if there is a Sousa archive on the Internet that might have scans of this sort of thing? I'll scout around a little.

When I've heard it performed live, I only recall hearing it introduced as "The Washington Post." Glenn6502 22:40, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

(later) I checked the University of Illinois, which has the major collection of Sousa's manuscripts. Their on-line index does not include "The Washington Post" under any variant of the title. I'll put looking for published versions on my to-do list for my next visit to a university. Glenn6502 00:22, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

I too have heard it call both "The Washington Post" and the "The Washington Post March". After Googling "Sousa, Washington, and Post, I find that internet sources are 2-1 in favor of "The Washington Post". Logically, if it were "The Washington Post March", wouldn't it also be "The Stars and Stripes Forever March"? Scout32 19:41, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

A brief search turned up this image (http://lcweb.loc.gov/rr/perform/guide/mu019001.jpg) of an autograph arrangement for keyboard from the Library of Congress. It shows "The Washington Post" at the top with "March" underneath in smaller writing. I interpret this to mean "The Washington Post" is the title, and the piece is a march; but I can see how one might also take both lines for the title. Ortonmc 19:10, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Oh, that's way cool. It didn't turn up in my brief search. Can we use that image in the article?

The manuscript itself is dated 1889, so it's passed into the public domain; and the image is from the LoC, which would be a U.S. Government work (also public domain). So I believe it's fair game. Ortonmc 20:11, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

BTW I have an interlibrary loan request in for the Dover Publications collection of Sousa marches which is I believe is reproduced from the original sheet music, which hopefully will provide another data point.

I realize that the whole question has sort of a Zen-like quality. 78 rpm and 45 rpm records of popular dance music would often have the words "Fox Trot" or "Waltz" or whatever, in a way that made it rather ambiguous whether they were to be considered part of the title. In fact it seems to me that, unlike books, which usually have a very well-defined title, the details of titles of pieces of music are rather variable. It occurs to me that there's a similar ambiguity about which titles of Scott Joplin's ragtime pieces include the word "rag." I'm sure it's "The Maple Leaf Rag," not "The Maple Leaf," but I think it's just "The Entertainer" and "The Cascades." Dpbsmith 20:01, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

OK, my book came in at the library. The front page of the sheet music is now in the main article. It shows an artistically dilapidated newspaper front page saying, conspicuously, "The Washington Post." with a period at the end. Or, actually, "he Washington Post." since a fragment is torn off. Then separately, at the bottom, it says "March by John Philip Sousa, Director Band USMC." The first page of the music itself is:

What with the two lines and the period at the end of each line, I read this to mean "The title of this composition is The Washington Post and it is a march." Dpbsmith 00:38, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)