Talk:Texas longhorn

Source on the end of the longhorn's commercial viability is here: http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/BB/aob1.html

Ben Brumfield

I don't buy the barbed wire theory. There's still plenty of cows on open range in the US, though nobody but hobby-ranchers run Longhorn. The problem with the Longhorn is poor winter-hardiness, slow growth and poor meat production compared with modern breeds. Toiyabe 23:27, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

While I respect your opinions, I'm not sure you "not buying the barbed wire theory" is really enough of a reason to completely change the thrust of the article in terms of the Longhorn's demise -- you are, after all, only one person. I have references at the end of the page for barbed wire vis a vis the Longhorn's demise (as well as Ben's kind link above). I am reverting your edits. Katefan0 19:44, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to get into an edit war with you, but there are some serious points here about the breed that are completely absent from the article as you reverted it. Even if you don't agree with the barbed wire thing, you might want to think about the rest.

For example these links about the growth rates - http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/livestock/beef/facts/01-051.htm#t1 and http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/research/table3.htm - show that the Longhorns are down there with the dairy breeds. There's plenty more out there that you can find using Google.

With regards to winter hardiness, you can find some information on the web, such as at http://www.westyellowstonenet.com/state_of_montana/history.php (search for longhorn on the page). Most of that information I got out of a book called "Cattle in the Cold Desert" by James A. Young and B. Abbott Sparks, though.

If you put it all together, Longhorns are essentially a feral breed that developed in Texas. Natural selection does not favor traits like rapid and efficient weight gain that cattlemen prize, and it's not surprising that the Longhorn lack them. However, during the time period when land was plentifull and good beef cattle were rare, it made sense to stock ranches with Longhorn. Under those conditions, a rancher could always make more money by buying more cheap Longhorn in Texas and running them on more land. Once land became scarce, the way to make more money was to switch over to more productive breeds which was the downfall of the Longhorn. Barbed wire can then be considered the symptom of land scarcity, but not the root cause of the decline of the Longhorn.

Finally, I live on open range in Nevada. If I forget to close my gate when I leave in the morning, the range cows will get in to eat my garden. In my neck of the woods the range cows are all Hereford, or Hereford crosses, and they do perfectly well on their own for six or eight months of the year (they'll starve or freeze to death in the winter, though. Longhorns are even less winter-hardy.). Longhorns are certainly not the only breed that can take care of itself on the range, contrary to the thesis of the paper that Ben linked to.

I guess there's something romantic about a technological inovation such as barbed wire destroying the idylic ranching lifestyle and its poster-child the Longhorn. However, cattle are still run on open range in the US just about everywhere that the land can't be used for a more productive purpose. And because of there is no longer a limitless open range, ranchers who seek to earn a living by ranching have to run the most productive breeds. Toiyabe 22:31, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't have easy access to the print sources listed, but here are some interesting references:

• The link at the top of this talk page (Handbook of Texas History Online) includes this quote "More controlled livestock breeding was made possible by the enclosure of herds, thus virtually eliminating the demand for the longhorn cattle, which were most suited to the open range." Taking this sentence at face value, it claims that barbed wire was the root cause that allowed more controlled breeding. It might also be taken to imply that the other breeds were more advantageous in a fenced in situation. It stands to reason that these are not the same attributes selected for by most modern cattle ranchers.
• Here is a source that links the downfall of the Longhorn to its being a leaner breed, which was not as profitable due to the trade in tallow [1] (http://www.ptreyeslight.com/stories/nov27/longhorn.html).
• Several sources claim the Longhorn's downfall was largely due to interbreeding. This may or may not have been made possible or easier by barbed wire. It is also interesting in that one could claim the Longhorn was not really dying out but evolving into other breeds through genetic recombination with other varieties. Here is one example: [2] (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/texaslonghorn/)
• The "open range" reference may be related to allowing the Longhorn to roam across the land once dominated by buffalo, once those animals became over-hunted: [3] (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/texaslonghorn/)
• Their reputation from hardiness may rise from the claim that they were well suited to eating a variety of native plants, so they made good use of whatever was on the land [4] (http://ar.essortment.com/texaslonghornc_rzpc.htm) or to their high rate of successful unattended births (99%), from the same source.
• "Disease resistant" may be related to their resistance to a certain type of tick that was devasting cattle heards after the American Civil War. [5] (http://ar.essortment.com/texaslonghornc_rzpc.htm) I've even heard it said that this breed of cattle prevented widespread starvation at the time, though that might be over-reaching.
• I would suggest: In the late 1800's, the advent of barbed wire brought the open-range cattle boom came to an end and allowed for more selective breeding of cattle. The leaner Longhorn beef was not as attractive in an era where tallow was highly prized, and the Longorn's ability to survive on often poor vegetation of the open range was no longer as much of an issue. Other breeds demonstrated traits more highly valued by the modern rancher, such as the ability to put on weight quickly. The Texas Longhorn stock slowly dwindled, until in 1927...
• Posted by Johntex 00:43, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'll leave it to someone else to do the next version. I just ask the whoever that is run a diff on my version, and consider incorporating some of the changes I made rather than rejecting them wholesale.

The disease you referred to is Texas Feaver, something that the Longhorn brought with them from Texas, and a strike against them rather than an arguement for them.Toiyabe 02:12, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please don't misunderstand me -- I have absolutely NO problem with information being added, and I agree that saying "barbed wire caused the Longhorns to decline" is probably a simplistic explanation, but it nevertheless IS part of the story, and you chose to remove it completely. That was my only problem. In terms of adding information, as long as there is sourcing to back it up, I say go for it. Katefan0 17:26, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Mention of University of Texas at Austin Longhorns and Bevo

I disagree with taking the mention of The University of Texas and Bevo out of the first paragraph. You can't assume that someone typing "Texas longhorn" into Wikipedia's serach engine is looking for a breed of cattle. They may very well be looking for the sports team. A quick Google check shows that 5 of the top 10 search results for "Texas longhorn" are UT sports related, while the other 5 are about the breed of cattle. Also, if you look at "What links here" you see that many UT related topics link to this page. The first paragraph of this article should help people understand why they have come to a page about cattle if they were expecting information related to UT. Johntex 20:14, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I think that they should remain simply because they are intrinsically linked. UT's sports team and mascot wouldn't be named what they are if Texas Longhorns weren't semi-legendary beasts (regionally at least). And it's not like Longhorns as cattle mean much beyond the state's boundaries. If UT's mascot and team was the Owls, I would agree -- an article about hoot owls wouldn't need a mention of UT's mascot and sports team. But this is an intrinsically, historically Texas thing, and as such I think it's appropriate. · Katefan0^(scribble) 20:36, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Excellent point Katefan0. Also, on another topic, it is interesting to see that Wikipedia does not yet have an article on hoot owls. And on yet another topic, the Rice University article never points to owl. More work to be done... Johntex 21:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK hoot owl was just a capitalization problem, and I added the link from Rice to Owl. Johntex 21:19, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)