Talk:Switzerland/Archive 2
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Moved discussion on the spelling of Swiss cantons from Talk:Switzerland.
Spelling of Towns/ Cantons
Is there somewhere a page on the spelling of Zurich/Zürich; Berne/Bern; Aargau/Argovia etc.? Kokiri 22:46, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- see Talk:Zürich and Talk:Cantons of Switzerland -- User:Docu
OK, I've read these now. What about spelling it out (i.e. a list of preferred spellings on Wikipedia)? I thought we use the English spelling where it was common use (e.g. Zurich). So we use Aargau rather than Argovia since Argovia is rare.
I've started this here because User:Wik changed the Canton of Berne into Canton of Bern, changed the spelling in the Swiss Council of States article and the one of Berne. Fair enough... but what we really need is consistent spelling. Kokiri 23:15, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- The entry in the Manual of Style: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English). Kokiri
- I'm not sure if MoS helps much. As you wrote about the topics, I found your choices reasonable (and I liked the articles).
- A fairly simple solution would be to use the official name in the (main) local official language and just note variations in English and other local languages. Swiss Alps and the related 1911 imports could use more updates in this field (some are old German spellings, some are import errors, some are .. ).
- BTW Let's get rid of Argovia. -- User:Docu
I suggest the following. First of all a ban on editing the names till we've resolved this. Secondly, the following three steps. Step one: list all names where there is a (possible) disagreement. Step two: discuss the advantages of each spelling. Step tree: vote (if necessary). I think we can do all this here. Kokiri 09:22, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Possible Disputes
I've now queried the terms on ATW (http://www.alltheweb.com/). I've used the term in question together with the word Switzerland and the language set to English. I've found that some of the results are nevertheless in German, so I suggest that we enjoy the results with care, particularly where there's no big gap. Kokiri 18:26, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've now added results from Google. I've used "Term Switzerland" to query.
Aargau/Argovia
We currently use Aargau. Is Argovia there because of the outdated 1911 entry? Kokiri
- Aargau 23,277; Argovia 839
- (Google:) "Aargau Switzerland" 1,410; Argovia 62
Appenzell Inner Rhodes/Appenzell Innerrhoden
Currently in the English spelling Inner Rhodes. Kokiri
- Inner Rhodes 743; Innerrhoden 1,046
- (Google:) 7; 15
Appenzell Outer Rhodes/Appenzell Ausserrhoden
ditto Kokiri
- Outher Rhodes 644; Ausserrhoden 1,644
- (Google:) 4; 31
Basel-City/Basel-Stadt/Basle Town
We currently use Basel-City. I think we once decided against using the Basle spelling as it's not common (despite being English). Kokiri
- Basel 727,646; Basle 75,153
- (Google:) 190,000; 6,280
Basel-Country/Basel-Landschaft/Basle Country
ditto Kokiri
Berne/Bern
Until recently the entry was using Berne. The articles are about split on the two different spellings (what links here). The official web site (http://www.admin.ch/ch/index.en.html) of Switzerland uses Berne. There's the Berne Convention where we can't really change the spelling, I suppose. Kokiri
- Berne 203,408; Bern 451,189
- (Google:) 23,700; 74,400
Fribourg/Freiburg
We currently use the French spelling Fribourg. Kokiri
- Fribourg 99,617; Freiburg 159,457
- (Google:) 13,400; 779
- Which is good, because Freiburg is also the name of a German town. (And becase the Swiss Fribourg Canton is in the French language part of Switzerland). -- till we *) 22:24, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)
Geneva/Genève
We currently use the English version Geneva. Kokiri
- Geneva 1,812,876; Genève 184,266
- (Google:) 580,000; 3,710
Grisons/Graubünden/Grischun/Grigioni
We currently use the English spelling Grisons. Kokiri
- Grisons 13,629; Graubünden 14,969; Grischun 5,536; Grigioni 575
- (Google:) 737; 459; 15; 24
Lucerne/Luzern
We currently use the English spelling Lucerne. Kokiri
- Lucerne 191,693; Luzern 89,433
- (Google:) 13,300; 5,840
Neuchâtel/Neuchatel
We currently spell it with an accent.
- Search engine doesn't seem to discriminate. Tried Google: Neuchâtel 47,900; Neuchatel 39,000
- (Google:) 4,930; 5460
Nidwalden/Nidwald
The Nidwald spelling is not really used on Wikipedia. Is it from the 1911? Kokiri
- Nidwalden 6,891; Nidwald 133
- (Google:) 97; 1
Obwalden/Obwald
ditto. Kokiri
- Obwalden 7,618; Obwald 159
- (Google:) 148; 5
Solothurn/Soleure
We currently use the German spelling Solothurn. Kokiri
- Solothurn 34,686; Soleure 911
- (Google:) 2,070; 56
St. Gallen/Sankt Gallen/St. Gall/ Saint Gallen/ Saint Gall
We currently use the abbreviated German form St. Gallen. Kokiri
- St. Gallen 116,310; Sankt Gallen 6,317; St. Gall 11,102; Saint Gallen 20,750; Saint Gall 31,355
- (Google:) 15,900; 369; 653; 316; 135
Thurgau/Thurgovia
See Argovia. Kokiri
- Thurgau 15,964; Thurgovia 190
- (Google:) 587; 4
Valais/Wallis
We currently use the French speling Valais. Kokiri
- Valais 48,545; Wallis 1,745,034 (Alltheweb, English, + Switzerlnad)
- "Wallis Switzerland" 998; "Valais Switzerland" 5220 (Google, English)
- (Google:) 4,230 (Valais; 827 (Wallis)
Zurich/Zürich
The entry is right now under the German spelling with umlauts Zürich. Most links are to Zurich without umlauts, though. Kokiri
- Zurich 1,411,839; Zürich 325,385
- (Google:) 354,000; 58,800
- I think the Google results for Zürich are misleading, because English speakers don't generally consider accents very important, and there's no easy way to type them on an English keyboard, so they usually just leave them off (when working on a computer). All English reference books I've looked at spell Zürich with an umlaut. --Zundark 13:30, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Spellings by the Swiss Government
- [1] (http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/schweiz/kantone/index.html): Appenzell Inner-Rhodes, Appenzell Outer-Rhodes, Argovia, Basle-Country, Basle-Town, Berne, Fribourg, Geneva, Glarus, Grisons, Jura, Lucerne, Neuchâtel, Nidwalden, Obwalden, Schaffhausen, Schwyz, Solothurn, St. Gall, Thurgovia, Ticino, Uri, Valais, Vaud, Zug, Zurich Kokiri 18:10, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- [2] (http://www.swissemb.org/legal/const.pdf): Aargau, Appenzell Inner Rhodes, Appenzell Outer Rhodes, Basel-City, Basel-Land, Berne, Fribourg, Geneva, Glarus, Grisons, Jura, Lucerne, Neuchâtel, Nidwald, Obwald, Schaffhausen, Schwyz, Solothurn, St. Gall, Thurgau, Ticino, Uri, Valais, Vaud, Zug, Zurich
- The differences between those two already show that there are no fixed official English spellings for the cantons, so we should simply do a Google test to find the most common version. Then we will find that the preferred version is generally the one in the most spoken language in the respective canton, with the exception of Geneva, which is the only English name here that is still regularly used. --Wik 14:45, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)
- Thanks for this list. As for the Google test, I don't think it's a good idea. Just take Bern/Berne: Bern is also a name; there are other Bernes in the world; or Zurich/Zürich: there's that large insurance company spelling themselves Zürich in German and Zurich elsewhere on the planet afaik. Also, I've tried some of the terms and never was able to get reliable results (i.e. pages that really are only in English). Kokiri 16:50, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- You just have to combine it with the word "Switzerland", e.g.:
- "Bern Switzerland" - 130,000
- "Berne Switzerland" - 40,500
- --Wik 17:03, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)
Votes
Official Name in Local Language & Geneva/Lucerne
Appenzell Innerrhoden, Appenzell Ausserrhoden, Aargau, Basel Stadt, Basel Landschaft, Bern, Fribourg, Geneva, Glarus, Graubünden, Jura, Lucerne, Neuchâtel, Nidwalden, Obwalden, Schaffhausen, Schwyz, Solothurn, St. Gallen, Thurgau, Ticino, Uri, Valais, Vaud, Zug, Zürich
- I vote for "to use the official name in the (main) local official language". The only exceptions in the Google test are Lucerne and Geneva. I suppose because of (far-eastern) tourists (Luzern) and the lack of ability to speak french of native english people ;-) --Diftong 15:10, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Ryan_Cable
Mixed Approach
Appenzell Inner-Rhodes, Appenzell Outer-Rhodes, Aargau, Basel-City, Basel-Country, Bern, Fribourg, Geneva, Glarus, Grisons, Jura, Lucerne, Neuchâtel, Nidwalden, Obwalden, Schaffhausen, Schwyz, Solothurn, St. Gallen, Thurgau, Ticino, Uri, Valais, Vaud, Zug, Zurich
- I prefer these spellings. Appenzell and Basel IMHO benefit from English; I think Zurich (without umlauts) comes with Geneva and Lucerne under English spellings. I'm not sure about Berne/Bern yet. Bern seems more common, but the Berne Convention really makes me hesitate. Kokiri 00:03, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- That's fine with me (BTW I read Outer). Finally, as 'conventions' changed the spelling between XIX and XX we could do the same and use Bern in case you decide that way. -- User:Docu
- Changed this approach to include Bern rather than Berne.
- I think a mixed approach is best, but I don't know enoough about Switzerland to comment on the details. I'd be inclined to use Innerrhoden and Ausserrhoden myself, but not if the words look like line-noise to those with no familiarity with German... Onebyone 12:08, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Strictly Google
Aargau, Appenzell Innerrhoden, Appenzell, Ausserrhoden Basel Stadt (222 vs. City: 59), Basel Landschaft (66 vs. Country: 40), Bern, Fribourg, Geneva, Glarus, Graubünden, Jura, Lucerne, Neuchatel (!), Nidwalden, Obwalden, Schaffhausen, Schwyz, Solothurn, St. Gallen, Thurgau, Ticion, Uri, Valais, Vaud, Zug, Zurich
Are the Google numbers above quoted for searching in all languages, or only English? Maximus Rex 00:20, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- "Term Switzerland", but not restricted to English only. However, with the word Switzerland in it, the results should only be in English. See above for more. Kokiri 01:10, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)