Talk:Speciation

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(Moving discussion to Talk page)

Does this mean the bacteria evolved into a new species, that they passed on acquired characteristics, or what?

"Species" is a pretty vague concept when it comes to bacteria, since they can reproduce individually. You can't use the "able to interbreed" defintion. Bacteriologists usually prefer "strain", which implies some significant trait such as whether or not it causes disease, or whether or not it is resistant to some antibiotic, whether it produces some protein, etc. One can use radiation to increase the mutation rate of bacteria cultures in a way that causes them to develop new traits that they would otherwise develop more slowly. (Except perhaps for Dinococcus radiodurans, whose primary trait is that it resists radiation damage!)

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I'm not a biologist, but I felt like some description of the debate over punctuated equilibrium versus gradual speciation was appropriate. If an expert reads what I added and thinks it needs correction, please go for it!

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Is speciation only the event of the creation of a new species as the result of one species separating into two or is it any event of the creation of a new species? At m-w.com it's defined as the process of biological species formation.

This bears on which variants of creationism accept or reject speciation. --Ed Poor

"Speciation" is not something that can be accepted or rejected--it's merely a term used to describe whatever events or processes lead to the creation of new species. If that's by God saying "poof--new species", then that's divine speciation. Scientists, of course, only use it to refer to speciations that they believe actually happen, by evolutionary means. The present text isn't very clear on that, but frankly, I'm not sure it's really a fit subject for an encyclopedia article--it's just a dictionary entry, really. --LDC

We could say "biologists believe" rather than "biologists generally believe" as the view is so nearly unanimous among them as to make disagreement negligible. Ed Poor

The definition of "species" is very vague. In the case of wolves and domestic dogs, these can (AFAIK) interbreed and produce fertile offspring, yet they are different species. Ramon Casha

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Anthere, speciation is a technical scientific topic in evolutionary biology; it requires a link to our article on biological evolution. Why did you remove the link to evolution, and replace it to a duplicate article (Theory of evolution]]) that is missing most of the science and details, and replaces science with religion and mysticism and Gaia theory? This makes no sense. When people want to learn about a very technical genetics and evolution topic such as speciation, we can assume that they do not want to study the mystical views of a Jesuit Christian priest from a century ago! Removing the science link and replacing it with the one you made is not justifiable. Please stop pushing your political and religious views into science articles. RK 23:01 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I totally agree with you that this article requires a link to biological evolution. And it is just perfect as this link is provided in the very first introduction sentence.

I removed the evolution link that you placed at the bottom of the article, because it would a duplicate link (since it is already in the first sentence right ?). cf. Wikipedia Manual of style: Do not link every occurrence of a word; simply linking the first time the word appears will usually be enough.

I put back the link to theory of evolution that you removed from the bottom of the page in your previous edits, for I believe the see also is meant to broaden the topic. The theory of evolution is just a perfect link to broaden the topic, and open our readers to new perspectives :-) I don't think we can assume they would not be interested in historical perspective (from more than a century ago by the way). But perhaps, it being an historical view from a christian perception could be a sign it is not very interesting to our readers ? Is that your opinion perhaps ?

Of course, the articles on evolution and theory of evolution are not duplicate articles, since as you yourself state, their content and goal are different. So, that make sense to open the topic with this second article.

For these reasons, it appears to me the theory of evolution link is relevant here. Of course, I might be wrong :-) User:anthere

The first word in the theory of evolution article is a link to the evolution article. The theory of evolution article also contains a link to speciation, which makes it appropriate, in my mind, that there be a back-link. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no reason to assume that there is some religio-political motivation for Anthere's change. Perhaps, RK, if you would cease ascribing particular motives to peoples' actions, there might be less antipathy in the discussions. --Dante Alighieri 23:47 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

And perhaps, Dante, you should read my comments more carefully. Please re-read my exact words in the Talk section of the Theory of evolution page. That is the main point. This isn't about Anthere; it is about Wikipedia, NPOV, and our policies on duplicate articles. RK 13:59 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

And perhaps, RK, if you wouldn't leave some comments on several different pages and some other comments on still other pages, it might be easier to stitch them all together into one coherent view of your opinion. As it stands, it's simply not worth the effort to read all of your scattered comments. I stand by my earlier words as they apply to the message you left here. --Dante Alighieri 19:34 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You seem confused. This specific subject is extremely pertinient both to this one article, and to the topic that it is linked to. Obviously then, it can be seen as appropriate to discuss the issue in both places. (Other people do this as well. Do you also rebuke them?) Dante, this is your second attack on me this week, despute the fact that I am not insulting you. I am simply working on specific issues to make our science articles more accurate. I hope that you stop using this issue as an opportunity to score point, and can focus on the actual issue. If so, I would be pleased to work with you. RK 21:29 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Actually, in my opinion it is you who is confused. My objection to your placing comments in several places is not merely a general one, but a response to your request above. You asked that I read your "exact words" on the Theory of evolution page. The problem is that that other page was not linked from your comment on this page. How is it, RK, that I am to be expected to magically know of the existance of this other comment that clarifies your main point? I responded directly to what was written on this talk page. I see nothing in my original post on this issue that is inappropriate given your sole comment that existed on this page at the time that I left my remark. Secondly, you seem to have quite the peculiar definition of attack. I'm sorry if you take my defense of Anthere as an attack on yourself, but hey, that's your business I suppose. Also, I guess I get no credit for clarifying that it wasn't you that started the Anthere/ban page. Sure you thanked me for it at the time, but it seems that that's not important given my repeated attacks against you since then. I also find it interesting, that despite your assertion that you are not attacking me, you managed to find the time to include a few rather pointed and subtly insulting remarks in the above passage. But hey, based on your treatment of Anthere, I won't claim to be terribly suprised. As far as "scoring points", I'm not entirely sure what points you think it is that I'm scoring, and with whom, but I'll just chalk that up to your "confusion". Lastly, this concludes my portion of this conversation, as I shall be taking your advice and focusing on the actual issue. I'd hate to needlessly clutter up talk pages. --Dante Alighieri 09:00 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, RK, both Dante and I misunderstood you then. Perhaps RK, if this has nothing to do with me, you could refrain from immediately throwing in the chauldron politics and religion, and just focus on the link issue you raised here (is my argument for keeping this link ok for now ?). Whatever what you meant to say, if other editors unfortunately misunderstand what you meant, it may be beneficial that you rephrase your problem. I may dare to add that the article on theory of evolution is *older* than the one on evolution. It would be problematic to say the older one is violating Wikipedia NPOV (can't see the relationship with NPOV here) just for existing before the second one :-). Perhaps the one who created the evolution article should have been more careful ? In any case, since these two have different content, I don't see why they could be considered duplicate articles. Anthère

Anthere, I don't understand why you keep claiming to be confused. The issue is very simple. People are trying to link to an article on science, on the processs of biological evolution. When they do so, they expect to come to an article on that topic. They do not expect to be mislead to a side-topic article that has very little science (almost none at all, in fact), and instead focuses on the mystical views of a Jesuit Christian priest from a century ago! This effectively pushes certain political and religious views into science articles. That is inappropriate. It is a violation of Wikipedia NPOV policy RK 21:29 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't see this as inappropriate. There is nothing in Wikipedia NPOV policy stating that articles dealing with science should only be linked to science articles. This way of doing is just compartimenting knowledge and forcing people to stay in their narrow view of a topic. I do think you go to far in your view of what people expect or do not expect. It is perfectly ok that in the middle of an paragraph explaining science stuff, the link is to the appropriate article (in this case, probably evolution), but that does not mean it is not ok to provide other links as well, especially in the "see also". Afaik, there is no specific rule saying that "see also" should restrict themselves to the very content of the article, otherwise, this link would probably be included in the content of the article itself. And I don't see why theory of evolution would not be a perfectly reasonable link in the speciation article.Anthère

I agree; I never said that articles dealing with science should only be linked to science articles. I didn't even come close to that position! In fact, I too have contributed to Wikipedia articles that link from science to non-science articles. This can be very useful. The difference is that in those cases we clearly stated this in the paragraph, and the title of the articles we created were very clear. That is the opposite of this case, where the science and non-science articles both appear to be solely about science.

For instance, consider the Science article. Within it, it states: "The relationship between religion and science: One of the key differences between religion and science is that scientists are willing (and sometimes, enthusiastic) to change their beliefs when new facts and compelling logic are presented. This subject is discussed in the article The relationship between religion and science.

In this case, the strictly science content is clearly differentiated from the content that is not strictly science, and the article title makes this clear as well. That is all I am saying we should do here. RK 20:08 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Similarly, we distinguish between an article on religion and one on the science of anthropology with a title like Anthropology of religion and Sociology of religion. Also consider homosexuality, which is about biology and science and sociology. Yet religion has a lot to say about this topic, which is why we created Religion and homosexuality.

Please consider the following Wikipedia articles: their titles more clearly represent their content. RK 20:08 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The relationship between religion and science

Now, you suggest that the theory of evolution only content is "mystical view of a Jesuit Christian priest". I would appreciate that you precise your view here and exactly point at what you are talking about. Several people are mentionned in this article, not only one. Are you suggesting the "Theory of Evolution" as stated by Darwin should not exist in Wikipedia, nor the other theories given by other scientists ? Do you suggest its content should be deleted ? Or do you suggest it should be incorporated in the current evolution article ? If so, how do you plan to resolve the fact you claim the evolution article is only about science and the content to incorporate is not ? (I consider a good deal of it is).Anthère

Your average Wikipedia reader, seeing an article with Theory of evolution as a link, will click on this link, and assume that the article is about the theory of evolution. Why would they assume otherwise? Yet they would be wrong, because this article does not discuss the theory of evolution in detail. Rather, it veers off into barely related topics.

not barely related topics. Theories which will likely not be accepted in the evolution article, because either proved to be false, or non-proved by scientific means mostly. Which precisely is what a theory is. However, I don't think removing history or removing "what is not proved" from Wikipedia is a good move. Likely, it will build un-trust in us. I also think the evolution article is quite outdated, hardly saying anything about neodarwinism, and not taking into account latest works.Anthère

We want people to trust us. But as thing stand now, people will come to the conclusion that they are being misled for partisan purposes. Sadly, some of my professional colleagues have already warned their students not to use Wikipedia for precisely this reason. It is not just evolution and Gaia theory; they see problems with many Wikipedia science and history articles that, in their eyes, betrays an agenda to win students over to a cause. In some cases, they are right.

possibly :-) But if these professers only feed their students with perfectly framed scientific information as widely accepted in the US, with no opening to the other options, then these students are badly in need of the other information we can provide us. I suggest you try to participate to wikipedia textbook project if you feel that what we are trying to do is just a school textbook. I do not think it is the case.Anthère

Finally, we must not blame others for the present state of the articles and article duplication, on this or any topic. The only point in being a Wikipedia contributor is to build on what we have. At times, this includes making edits, deletions, and redirects when necessary. Ours is not to complain about the past, but to work on improving the encyclopedia. RK

I absolutely agree with you. So what do you suggest ? Purely removing any information on other theories or the historical name of this theory and making a bland redirect ? Changing the title of the current article ? Adding information to the current article to make it more acceptable to your view ? Move the content of it to the evolution article ?Anthère

In practice, most Wikipedia readers will come to the Theory of evoltion page, and assume that this is our main article on the subject, even though it is not. When we title our articles, we must be scrupulously clear. If we want a page on Evolution and religion, or Evolution and philosophy or anything else, that is fine. In fact, I love reading about such stuff, but I just think it should be labeled clearly. RK

some of this copied in theory of evolution talk page.

OK. Then let's solve the issue of the theory of evolution first. Anthère

Anthere writes "Now, you suggest that the theory of evolution only content is "mystical view of a Jesuit Christian priest". I would appreciate that you precise your view here and exactly point at what you are talking about. Several people are mentionned in this article, not only one. Are you suggesting the "Theory of Evolution" as stated by Darwin should not exist in Wikipedia, nor the other theories given by other scientists ? Do you suggest its content should be deleted ? Or do you suggest it should be incorporated in the current evolution article ? "

I never said this. (Rest of comment deleted by myself.) RK

RK, I suspect you're misreading between Anthere's lines, probably in part because of language issues. I think what Anthere was doing was presenting you with two options, neither of which was supposed to be one that you had proposed. One of the options I think she meant to be absurd: I think she's offering the absurdity of eliminating Darwin as an argument against eliminating content. I read the post as just a civil attempt to prod you rhetorically toward the resolution she seems to favor--the combination of the content of the two articles into one, rather than the total elimination of one article and it's content. I suppose she's also implicitly rejecting the option of keeping two articles and renaming one or both, but I don't find that grounds for war in itself. 168... 03:05 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Maybe so; at the time it felt like I was being toyed with. I guess you are right, and I owe Anthere an apology. Sorry, Anthere. I am removing my above statements. RK 20:41 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

apology accepted of course. Thank you RK. Anthère

168, you suspect quite well. I appreciate that you try to read between my lines. I fear that the flowery way french people talk is perhaps one some english people can't understand. Perhaps I should limit any of my sentence to subject + verb + complement ? In a very flat and sad discourse that any robot could hold ? Without playing with words and concepts ? Certainly, someone versed in science know the reductio ad absurdum ? I am sure you have a sense of humour RK. You are also a bright man, so please, stop assuming the worse in me, and accept me as a bit facetious. I am willing to work with you. Please try to understand my slightly teasing and grandiloquent side and I will try to understand your susceptibility and aggressivity side :-)
As for my opinion on the fate of these two articles, I explained it in length in the Talk:Evolution yesterday night. But I guess my opinion was not thought relevant, since RK did choose not to answer my comments, but instead boldly made the redirect.

I fail to see how I could in any way participate in this encyclopedia if when I edit, I am accused of being too bold, and when I discuss, my comments are left unanswered. Theoretically, this is supposed to be a collaboration work, and I think an article on biology evolution could benefit perhaps a bit from the input of a non-english biologist. I do not know what are the credentials of RK to feel so much empowered upon all the gaia, knowledge, science, evolution and co articles. But I sure think inputs from various backgrounds should be important. And I sure think I can bring a little from both a french/european and a microbiologist perspective.

I just find much of what you say obscure. Its not a matter of you being too bold, but I don't always follow you as well as I should. RK

I will try to be clearer then. Anthère

In replacing the article with a redirect, RK forgot to move all the relevant content of the article in the evolution article. I asked for an explanation of this action on the talk:theory of evolution. I am not sure he will decide to acknowledge my comment.
Three options

• RK justify that the left over are irrelevant to the current evolution article, and I will drop the matter. However, I must emphasize I am quite serious about it. So, I think it deserves discussion, not deletion.
• RK introduces the relevant parts in the evolution article and take into account my comments. All is well. Especially if he also take care of rephrasing it in good english :-)
• RK goes on not answering and caring for other opinions than his. I revert the theory of evolution, put a edit war at the top, and hope you help us solving the issue politely :-(

I wasn't aware that I dropped any relevant or significant content; I certainly did not mean to do so. It looked to me like much the same content, only phrased differently. Not bringing it over was only an attempt to avoid duplication. Thus, I have no objections to bringing all that other material into the main evolution article. RK 20:41 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Lexor put it in the article. I am glad we agree on this. I have no pb with the current move. Anthère

Of course, I will not add these points myself to the evolution article without being sure he agrees with it, as he probably left these points aside for conscious reasons, and will see me adding them as an unsufferable attempt to push my religion or my political views in an article again, and will likely revert my changes.
I also think that it is not the first time RK merge articles while leaving aside relevant content. Hence, my move will be to revert the theory of evolution to be certain content will not be lost. Not necessarily because I want the article to be absolutely preserved, I wish to make that clear. I suggested that the facts (evolution is widely accepted) and the theories (mechanisms proposed to explain the evolution) need to be more identified. This could be in two different articles, or in one. I have no firm idea on this. But I think it is important to say that the first is quite uncontroversial now (but some creationnists, while the second still is. Consciously leaving aside modern theories to push ancient ones at the front is one way to make-believe it is non-controversial issue. Unfortunately, for biologists, it still is controversial, and I do not think this fact should be hidden to the readers. Especially in an encyclopedic article, which goal is to report all relevant knowledge in the field of science. Or should we set an article specifically on modern evolution ?

I am in advance sorry if this result in an edit war again. But, leaving aside modern theories is not acceptable imho. I am confident that once RK realise that I was using counter-demonstration and providing ideas in good faith, he will take the good decision and accept to discuss the left aside points. And perhaps, when we both come to know each other better, we won't need another editor to filter our communications.

I must add that I do not appreciate that you are spreading discussion on several articles in spite of my trying to set a common place for discussion, RK. In french, we call that "Diviser pour mieux régner". Google translates it by "To divide for better reigning". I read once an option against that kind of action what to centralize discussion. In case you go on practicing this, I will boldly move any comment on the topic to one central place.

Incidentally, RK, I appreciated you added the Jesuite opinion to the evolution article. I also asked you to refactor your personal attacks upon me in the gaia articles, more than two weeks ago. RK, you accepted to do so. I will very kindly ask you again to refactor them. I am sure I would not properly refactor your words myself. Thanks in advance. user:anthere

Anthere, I suggest you come up with a different word than "refactor." "Refactor" is an unusual word in English (I'm not sure I've ever encountered it), and it in the above context it's almost impossible to guess what you mean. Maybe the word you want is "reformulate?" I suppose you are looking for a diplomatic or delicate way to say "revise" or "rewrite"? If so, I think you are right that your French style is combining synergistically with your only minor deficiencies in English vocabulary and syntax. 168... 18:30 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

ah ? euh...you...don't know what to say...err...this is no french word...I learn it on Wikipedia...hum...well...I interpretated that since refactoring existed, refactor as a word could also...maybe was I a bit too creative here :-§

afaik, it is used in computer field, it means reworking the code without changing any of the functionalities. Well...in this case, rephrasing, reformulating, revising, rewriting would all be good. What I mean is rewriting them to remove personal attacks and keep only what is truely relevant to articles. I think I saw it many times used in Wikipedia. I think RK understood quite well what I meant. Maybe not ? Ach, if I can't learn english from working with english speaking people on Wikipedia, there is perhaps something wrong in the process. Perhaps the word is just Wikipedia jargon such as in Refactoring as the essential Wikipedia process and I confused it with a real word ?

I am confused here.

make me think...I often tend to merge languages, see this (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/intlwiki-l/2002-September/000719.html) and then Jimbo answer (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/intlwiki-l/2002-September/000720.html) which gave me to think I sometimes am not clear, but here I didnot think so. disconcerted ant

You use the word "refactor" correctly. The problem is, as its domain was originally computer programming, it is probably jargon to most people. I imagine its usage has not spread far beyond the source domain, and I would doubt if most native speakers of English are familiar with it in this context. That's not to say that it is wrong or a bad idea for you to use it... some of the vocabularly that I use isn't exactly commonplace either. :) --Dante Alighieri 20:29 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I will limit myself using it with computer programming people to avoid misunderstanding

tell me some of this vocabulary :-) I love new words. Anthère

What is the mechanism?

This article sounds like the theory of evolution has already been proven and is no longer controversial. But it fails to specify the mechanism of "speciation". What causes new species to come into being? Is it mutation, or what? --Uncle Ed 16:52, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

observed instances

instead of linking to talk.origins (which is obviously POV), can we cover the observed instances here, with our own citations to the appropriate papers, etc? - Omegatron 01:57, May 27, 2005 (UTC)