Talk:Slovene language/Archive 1

I just didn't understand the following at all.

One of the characteristics of this language is the future tense where we have

bom bos bo bomo boste bodo plus past participle.

"Dual" is a concept unfamiliar to speakers of English and most Western European languages - you need to explain that one with lots of examples!

i always thought that no Slavic language still had "dual" numbers. In Polish we have few archaical remnants in few proverbs and in some sentences (madrej glowie dosc dwie slowie, instead of: madrej glowie dosc dwa slowa as it should be in modern usage and similar...). Very interesting.

And i actually understand examples :) video is "i see", right? [[szopen]]

Upha. It is very challeging for me to explain my own native language here but I have to keep in mind I am not strictly speaking some grammarian, linguist; philologist or Slovenist ? (= slovenist) - an expert for Slovenistics ? (= slovenistika). Yes szopen you have understand that correctly but unfortunately this particular case was written uncorectly. Let me show. It is simple. That particular verb (= glagol) previous written as absurd in Slovene video (= to see) must be written (On je) videl (= (He) saw). Verb to see is videti and thus it is the "word" all should search in Slovene dictionary of literary (written) language of any kind. My reference for this is Slovar slovenskega knjižnega jezika -a very thick book unbearable even for Slovenes because of its weight, ha, ha. Its computer version 1.0 is more preferable for comp users. This book was written with a great deal of help from computational scientist Primož Jakopin who had recently made his doctor's degree on subjects of the similar field. By his own in early 1980-ies he made some programmes mainly with and on ATARI computers - which made creation of such huge work possible. Authors had also rejected the project to be done with TeX posibilities. So video is like we would depravated say, (or better write) to syea or something like that.

Another back question goes to Derek Ross. What have you changed in your last edition of main article with spelling. I think Slovene spelling is very tuff subject to explain for an average speaker to non - Slovene beginner. Main differents goes to the famouos, let us say anti ASCII leters Č, Š and Ž. Some briefly for these characters write: "C, "S, "Z. In TeX for example is another muddle. According to original Knuth's notation it should be roughly written as \v{c}, \v{s}, \v{z}. I use up to now the oldfashioned and very bad notation based on old DOS and early Windows applications Slavic ASCII characters adopted in Former Yugoslavia as ^, [, @ for capitals (initials)and ~, {, ` for small letters, thus across TeX macro we get weird \^, \[, \@ and \~, \{, \`. This is absolutely bad acceptance for TeX but we won't get into details here. I'll just write that we fall into TeX's proper problems (i.e. math mode and of course the Knuth's 'theory' of hyphenization). These kind of questions are usually solved by TeXCeH a Slovene TeX users group, but they mainly deal with LaTeX which is not bijective to TeX.

So spelling would be treated soon. //Hey XJ look up more carefully spelling not pronunciation. My mistake but let it stay because spelling and pronunciation are somehow conected. I'll give here some example how to pronounce those three Letters Ch, Sh, Zh.

čok (almost like chalk, meaning tree-stump)

šok (almost like shock, meaning of course shock)

žolč (almost like coach if we swap [/kouch/] to [/jouch/] meaning strangely gall) Lep pozdrav (Nice greetings) Rastafire 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (0)

videti and videl are even more familiar (widzieć, widział) than video... And Szok and Żółć are almost the same. Problems with TeX are it seems also quite similar. Rastafire, if Slovene is name for your nation, then how you call all Slavs? I mean, Slovene sounds almost like Slowianie... [[szopen]]

Simple. We call them Slovani, singular Slovan. I wasn't aware of such similarities beetwen Polish and Slovene language. I know a lot (for me perhaps at most) similarities with plain and pure Russian language. If they use other alphabet, it does not make any difference to me. We are neighbouring to Croatia and I think with this statement I can open some serious debate which language is the most similar to Slovene one. All would say that Croatian language and Serbian language - sometimes both called together as Serbo-Croatian language are, Bosnian language. Some say that this language is Bulgarian language, or Czech language and for Slovenes harder Slovak language. There are a lot of similarities of course with Macedonian language, but let my statement ramains. (Don't kill me for nothing because of that]]. I can't comprehend Polish alphabet too. Can you give us the whole one? In Slovene language there are 25 unique letters and thus characters, but in computers' world it's a little bit different. Let me write

A,B,C,&#268;,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,R,S,Š,T,U,V,Z,&#381;.

(Western ones Q,W,X,Y are excluded, some Southern Slavic characters too Ć,Đ, but in our encyclopedia's we use them all. This goes to Zundark's strict demand to use here only and only English sorting what in the end makes a lot of sence. We small nations respect the greater ones and it should be vice versa. So you can imagine Slovene programmers to implement even some easy and standard sorting methods. Dear Polish M8 I am also interested in Russian influence (bad or good) to Polish nation. Živjo (Bye)
--XJam 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (1st ed.)

Polish alphabet : A Ą B C Ć D E Ę F G H I J K L Ł M N Ń O Ó P R S Ś T U W X Y Z Ż Ź

In fact i very often heard and read that X isn't part of Polish alphabet, but it is used very widely. We don't use Q or V, except for foreign words. Ą, Ę are nasal vowels, sometimes degenerating into simple om and en, ó is the same as u, and Ć,Ś and Ń are sof C,S and N. Ł is like w in english wood. Ż is like Zh, ź is soft Z. Of course we have also ch, sz, cz, rz to denote some sounds: ch is the same as h (this is purely historical difference, once they were pronounced differently) rz is like ż (again, historical difference), sz like sh, cz like ch in english. When we want to have some fun from foreigner, we ask him to repeat suchą szosą Sasza szedł or Nie pieprz Pietrze wieprza pieprzem, or, the best, w Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie. No one Westerner is able to pronounce that :)

I guess all Slavic languages are more or less comprehensible. I remember when i was in Czech as a kid, i could easily communicate with Czechs. Except, of course, that i have to hold my laugh :). And, interestingly, one of Arabs i know told me once that he wasn;t able once to tell difference between French, Polish and other European languages...

In Russian influence, i guess you mean linguistic: well, we had it a lot. They are called rusycyzmy and are words and order of words in sentence etc, and they are generally discouraged (heh, i came from city where having a good mark from Russian was generally considered bad idea).

Anyway, Wikipedia policy is against chats on talk pages, so i suppose we would have to end it :-(. Trzymaj sie cieplo (keep warm (or something like that)), szopen

Hey man. VERY VERY VERY VERY INTERESTING. Thank you very much. This is more than just pure chat for me. I meant all kind of Russian influence but thanks anyway. Try the same to say this from Slovene: Klop pod kopljo again very fast. It's hard to say even for us, ha, ha. Polish rusycyzmy is Slovene rusizem, and plural rusizmi. Is singular in Polish as rusycyz(e)m, correct? Spasibo
--XJam 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (2st ed.)

To Primož

Yes Primož, I do not want to be a hairsplitter, but I had really found the mixed terms "Freising manuscripts" (which is OK) and "wrong" term "Freisinger monuments" (German - English mixture). You can check this strange statements (navedbe) all around. But I can spare you that time. This was not my typo mistake, so I'll leave what you had corrected. As we all know, English speaking people sometimes use dirrect German phrases as f.l.a.k., Gauss Einsatz, and so on. Best regard. -- XJamRastafire 08:02 Jul 26, 2002 (PDT)

To user:Damian Yerrick QUOTE Western proper nouns or toponyms are not translated in full, as they are in Slavic languages that use the Cyrillic alphabet, such as Russian or Serbian./QUOTE -- Good guess, but sorry, look at the http://www.vets.edu.yu/im/htm/Radionica/Matematicari/Njutn.htm or http://www.medijaklub.cg.yu/kultura/arhiva/11-00/7-11.htm for example of "Njutn". Not only Cyrillic-script Serbian, but Croatian, Bosnian etc. So I changed this paragraph. user:Vassili Nikolaev

Yes, Vassili a good point. And let us clear this a bit more. Your first and second URL are all written and come from a Serbian 'teritory'. It shows off. Croats and Bosnians use strictly Western names. This is in fact somekind of an agreement and I think Damian is not right. Your restoration is therefore correct. I've seen a lot of text continuing both - names in written form and in original form (e.g. Njutn (Newton)), but I've seen even more texts without both forms. For instance I have one good Serbian university textbook from the astronomy, written in Latin, but without original Western names for astronomers. I can't get a full help from its index because I still don't know for some astronomers stated there. Serbs usually say: Pisi kao sto govoris (Write as you speak). Croats could decide to write as Serbs - but obviously they didn't. You can compare these two further Serbian (http://www.im.ns.ac.yu/journals/nsjom/1995-99.htm) and Croatian (http://mahazu.hazu.hr/Akademici/SMardesic_str_cl.html) URLs -- XJamRastafire 11:14 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

To XJamRastafire. Thanks for explanation, I was not sure about Bosnain and Croatian, now I know that only Serbian change original Western names. I think this is because Cyrillic is considered a main Serbian script and Latin script just follows Cyrillic spelling. user:Vassili Nikolaev

I guess - but I am not 100 % shure. We should ask one fully expert of Serbo-Croatian language. Does Russians always change Western names when they write in original alphabet? I know they sometimes write in Latin (specially on the web) - but if I am honest I can't read that, if I don't endeavour myself. I do believe that Slovenes might write as Russians do, if they had decided long ago and vice versa. Cheers. -- XJamRastafire 11:45 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

To XJamRastafire No, the general practice is to preserve original Latin spelling for the names originated from Latin-script languages. The problem here is that Russians unfrotunately often don't know and don't care about original spelling, using transliterartion form Russian instead. That's why Nyuton or Njuton sometimes can be found on Russian web-pages. User:Vassili Nikolaev 12:18 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

This article is full of factual information, but isn't it way to long and detailed for an encyclopedia article about a relatively minor language? Shoudln't it be on a web site somewhere? Zocky 13:21 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

Nah, it just needs some reorganization. Wikipedia has no size limits. --Eloquence

Well, we can't put everything into it, can we? At least move most of the stuff to another article and just leave "what slovene is" in this one. Zocky 13:32 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

It's not really that long -- cf. long pages (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ALongpages). But if you want to move some stuff, just go ahead. --Eloquence

This article is still in a phase of formation, so whether it is long or not, it is hard to say for now. Yes, the language is minor according to its speakers, although even this is not true. This language is among the 10 % of the world's populations as English and Welsh philologist David Crystal recently said. Its organization is mentioned for example as some others articles about languages (see for example Hebrew language). In this stage everything is still in one layer -- but this will change soon... I like it very much anyway. --XJamRastafire 14:50 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

My Slovene girlfriend told me that the word "Slovenian" is not American English. Can someone verify this "fact"? Thanks, Chuck SMITH

Well, it's basically like this: Everybody but Slovenes mostly says Slovenian. Furthermore, even people who say "Slovene language" say "Slovenian towns" and "Slovenian politicians" etc. The "correct" usage thus seems to be "Slovene" to mean "of Slovenes" and "Slovenian" to mean "of Slovenia". That would make me, for instance, Slovenian, but not Slovene.

Note that this is also how American and British media seem to use Croat(ian) and Serb(ian) - they commonly talk about "Serbian politicians", "Croatian politicans" and "Bosnian Serb politicians" an Bosnian Croat politicians".

Zocky 14:14 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)

Basically this changed sentence by BT says the same: "Slovene (rapidly becoming an archaic form)". I can't verify this is true. I've learned just a form which uses Slovene. But meantime this obviously has changed and I don't know why should be accepted. I don't have much will to change everything back and forth. --XJamRastafire 17:12 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Hello all. Firstly, I would like to apologize to XJamRastafire for causing him some frustration by replacing 'Slovene' with 'Slovenian' everywhere. I'm new to Wikipedia and was irked myself to see 'Slovene' being used all over the place.

As I'm sure you've noticed, the term 'Slovenian' has rapidly been gaining prominence in recent years. In fact, I expect in 5-10 more years 'Slovene' will be effectively phased out.

The movement driving the shift from 'Slovene' to 'Slovenian' is interesting, but complicated. To my knowledge, a proactive effort got started by American-Slovenians (no, I am not American) more or less about the same time Slovenia earned her independence in 1991.

Basically, what everything boils down to is this: 'Slovenian' sounds much better to native English speakers than 'Slovene'. But there are other factors propelling this shift. These include:

The confusion factor: Most old English major dictionaries say 'Slovene' is a noun and 'Slovenian' is an adjective. According to this description then, 'Slovenians', 'Slovene mountain', 'You are a Slovenian', 'You are Slovene' are incorrect usages! On the other hand, 'Slovenian language' and 'Slovene language' are correct terms, but mean slightly different things. Considering most people easily confuse 'Slovenia' for 'Slovakia/Slovak Republic' and 'Slavonia', this isn't encouraging.
The redundancy factor: There is no Italian AND Italene, German AND Germene, American AND Americene, French AND Frenchene, Russian AND Russene, Polish AND Pole...hmm... okay, but you get the point, right? There is simply no need for two terms.
The yuck factor: 'Slovene' comes across as being much too close to 'sloven'. My Webster dictionary's actual definition for 'sloven' is: "One habitually negligent of neatness or cleanliness, especially in dress or person." Great....
Did I mention that 'Slovenian' just sounds much much better? It's elegant.

Anyway, like it or not...'Slovene' is being phased out. Whereas a few years ago 'Slovene' and 'Slovenian' were roughly used in equal numbers, today it is actually rare to see 'Slovene' printed by the international media. [Search world newspapers at www.wn.com using the word 'Slovenian' today and you'll find 294 articles. You'll find 255 with 'Slovene' but...don't be fooled, Slovene (pronounced SLO-ven) is the French word for Slovenian. ;) Perhaps more telling is what you'll find with a google search: 1,480,000 'Slovenian' web results compared to only 207,000 'Slovene' (including the French 'Slovene').] --BT [19. June 2003]

Hi BT. Well explained. But I must say I am still not convinced. I hope that everything you've wrote is correct. I am pround that I am Slovene, but I can't be if the proper term in English still can not be found. You did some hocus-pocus about certain distionaries and such. I can be called Martian as long I know to which nation I belong. To mix Slovenia with Slovakia is an old silly story. I can't help those who do not distinguish these two great nations, man. Slavonia is another story. I won't say Slovenian just because it sounds so fine (...not to me - it sounds really silly, but ...). As I've written why then when I was teached not long before at my school days just and strictly adjective Slovene? I think it is also bad comparison with French. What is only good in Slovenian is that we can easilly write [[Slovenia]]n instead of [[Slovenia|Slovene]] or something like that. The same thing is with Serb or Serbian, Croat or Croatian and such. Not just with the suffix "ene". In this way English would be just one simple Esperanto. Country + suffix -ian. Yugoslavia --> (Yugoslav)ian, Brazil --> Brazilian (how simple), Russia --> Russian (even simplier), Germany --> (hm, let me think) --> Germanian (instead of proper German -- I know there are no Germenes). But Slovenes are. And finally -- if you're right I'll hard accept this. Look for example Mr. Arthur Charles Clarke's quote about two Slovenes at Herman Potočnik page and see for yourself. I won't say that Mr. Clarke is just one old English man from Sri Lanka. I guess he masters his tongue... If he (still) says Slovene, why should I say Slovenian? And BTW - if you're signing here just tipe --~~~~ and date and your user name will be set automatically. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 20:50 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

XJam, the reason you (and Mr. Clarke) should use the term Slovenian is in order to get with the program, as it were. You are doing a disservice to your fellow Slovenians by using outdated terms. I believe I clearly stated the reasons for this above. Considering we are speaking about the English language and you are not a native English speaker, how the term Slovenian sounds to you is irrelevant.

As for the verity of the information given in my previous post, it is easily verified. It takes less than 10 seconds to do a search for Slovenian and Slovene using google (www.google.com); the same is true with World News (www.wn.com). And Slovène is indeed the French word for Slovenian. Doubt that 'Slovenian' is an actual word? Pick up an English dictionary or two (mind you, many older dictionaries include neither 'Slovene' nor 'Slovenian'!). Want further proof that 'Slovenian' is here to stay and 'Slovene' is on the way out? Which term is being used in these notable Slovenian major websites?

http://www.gzs.si/eng (Gospodarska Zbornica Slovenije)
http://www.nzs.si/2000/eng/index.htm (Nogometna Zveza Slovenije)

and Slovenian company sites:

and others Slovenian sites you might be aware of:

Okay, FINALLY I found a major Slovenian website using the term Slovene--but only as a noun, Slovenian is used as an adjective:

http://www.slovenia-tourism.si/

But wait, another influential Slovenian website using the term Slovenian exclusively:

http://www.uni-lj.si/UoL/About/

Hmm.. the University of Ljubljana?? Indeed... :)

--BT 01:06 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

PS: Thanks for the info about this date function.

Yes, you can very easilly find the way to pick up so many arguments against adjective Slovene. They all might be wrong. Do not blame me if I insist what I have learnt at schools, which were not so bad after all. If I am doing such a disservice to my fellow citizens, then it is my education which fails. I really do not want to do any more harm to the recognition of Slovenes. About notable Slovene firms. This is just a pure chain reaction. Monkey does what monkey sees. Can you please give me one good link to definitive proof that Slovenian must be used from now on? And please learn the usage of Slovene too. It is not Gospodarska Zbornica Slovenije but Gospodarska zbornica Slovenije and also Nogometna zveza Slovenije. Who decide which term to use? English people or Slovene ones? I guess both. I know that Slovène is a French term for Slovene. But this is just a pure coincidence and we can not use it to argue about bad usage of adjective Slovene.

My definitive dictionary of English language which is "The Doubleday Dictionary", 1st Ed., Doubleday & Company, Inc., Garden City 1975, says:

Slovene noun One of a group of S Slavs now living in NW Yugoslavia (OK, this is a bit outdated, but nevertheless...). -- adjective Of or pertaining to the Slovenes or to their language. -- Slovenian adj., n.. (So here Slovenian is still in the second place...). I have no better dictionary. And I doubt there is any better one around.

A little bit newer one "Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English", 23rd Imp., Oxford UP, Oxford 1986 does not have Slovene or Slovenian at all. (Strangely but it has both Yugoslavian and Yugoslav). Should I buy some more new distionaries just to be sure how English is changing so rapidly? In this case in just around 30 years the usage of Slovene has changed to more proper one -- Slovenian, as you dictate. I doubt. Why is that so? Just because or there are any particular deeper reasons for this. You've said that you have explained this reasons clearly. I am pretty tired of arguing what is right and not. For me it is more interesting that in Slovene we have two forms which become translated in English as one. Slovene language slovenski jezik and Slovene slovenščina. In English we have to use adjective plus the word language. In Slovene adjective Slovene becomes also a noun, describing the language itself Slovene -- slovenščina. Please do not accuse me that I am doing some kind of harm to my fellow citizens because after all you may be wrong. I still believe that Slovenian should not be used in any of forms. Slovene is enough for both, adjective, and for noun. And not because they sound fine to me. I am not here to decide what is the best, but just to observe. And I hope that my great teacher of English is not turning in his grave for this. If you have time and will you can change adjectives and nouns Slovene all over the Wikipedia. I have not :-) And to learn some more about the usage of Slovene we can see at this address of the Society for Slovene Studies in Seattle, Washington, United States (and not some soccer organizations...):

http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/~ljubljan/sss.html

    But look at this page at the University of Alberta:
 http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/expressnews/articles/news.cfm?p_ID=411&s=a
    Looks like they are as confused as you. ;) BT 21:49 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I am glad that someone outside the homeland is still using this term. You can write to them that they live in aberration if you want. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 19:46 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I give you major Slovenian companies, major Slovenian websites, and even the UNIVERSITY OF LJUBLJANA, and this is your response? You have facts staring you in the face and you just ignore them. You ingore what is important (e.g. you totally dismiss Slovenian being used EXCLUSIVELY on the websites of the University of Ljubljana, the most prominent Slovenian companies, the Chamber of Commerce of Slovenia, etc...) and instead emphasize insignificant things (on top of the many sites I provided there is listed--God forbid--a soccer site too).

How about MAJOR international institutions...will seeing which term they use help you accept that 'Slovene' is on the way out? Let's see here:

First we have, the EUROPEAN UNION:

http://europa.eu.int/abc/governments/others/index_en.html#Slovenia

Nah...that's not major.
And a few of the many others:

Anyway, I'm done arguing on this subject. Slovene and Slovenian are obviously both legal terms, but only the latter will become the undisputed standard. When even the University of Ljubljana uses Slovenian exclusively on its site (http://www.uni-lj.si), and the University of Maribor uses it to describe its mission,

http://www.uni-mb.si/povezave/admin/sraka_media.asp?id=4999

maybe I'm right, no?

BT 21:45 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with XJamRastafire on this one... every Slovene I've ever met (including my Slovene girlfriend) has used the word Slovene and not Slovenian. In fact, I stopped using the word Slovenian a while back because nobody I know uses it. Oh well. So, I would be borderline on this issue, but I agree with the move because of the google factor. --Chuck SMITH

Chuck, I am not disputing that Slovenians raised in Slovenia were taught in their schools the term Slovene. I know this very well. However, have you ever met a native-English speaking Slovenian who used the term Slovene? Homeland Slovenians are still catching up to the rest of the world in terms of using the preferred English term (i.e. Slovenian) by the vast majority of people around the world (I again offer google.com web results as compelling evidence). Fortunately, however, XJamRastaFire is the only homeland Slovenian I have ever encountered who refuses to acknowledge that Slovene is becoming an archaic term.

To XJamRastafire: Seeing how both Slovene and Slovenian exist in our English dictionaries, and considering Slovenian is clearly increasingly common and already the immensely more popular term (certainly by virtually every native-English speaking Slovenian), I hope you understand the futility of your efforts in supporting Slovene. BT 01:26 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)

BT don't you have any better work to do? Please, do not teach me that my purposes are just simple futilities. I just gave you what I know about these adjectives. And then you came and you do not want to argue at all. You just give some facts which google shows. All right, it is obvious that Slovenian is much more used nowadays in electronic media. I can't change this, yes. But as you're new herein you might be at least fair enough to discuss the subject first and then change everything that does not suit you. You still did not give me any explicit proof of some expert about this term. You say that I am the only homeland Slovene that you have ever encounteed. I do NOT refuse the adjective or noun Slovene becoming an archaic form. I've just said it is still more familiar to me (and you accused me that this is my own fashion...). And consider what have Zocky and Chuck said. I think that becoming Slovene an archaic form is your invention. Who says that? I still believe that both terms are equally relevant no matter of your pseudo grammatical examinations. How can you be so sure that Slovenian will become undisputed standard? Yes University of Ljubljana really uses Slovenian instead of Slovene. This has without no doubt surprised me. The Fran Ramovš Institute of Slovenian Language (http://bos.zrc-sazu.si/a_beseda.html) of Scientific Research Centre of Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts (ZRC-SAZU) also uses Slovenian. I guess they know why and I believe this might be the HARDEST proof that you might be right. Here's one excerption from the search of Slovene at their Corpus Laboratory:

"DELO, 22. julija 1999, sentence 774 in context:"

"Naslednja beseda je »Slovene« (izgovori se podobno kot kratica za Slovenija-vino »Slovin«), ki se razlaga kot slovenski, slovenščina, Slovenec. Oxford Dictionary v Microsoftovi Encarti pa pozna tudi za nas daleč boljšo in primernejšo obliko »Slovenian« namesto dvoumnega »Slovene«. Tudi Komac-Škerlj: Slovene(!) English Modern Dictionary navaja poleg »Slovene« tudi »Slovenian«, vendar se o priporočeni obliki ne izreka, kar se mi zdi slabo. Vsekakor bi morali dati prednost obliki »Slovenian«, kadar prevajamo pridevnik »slovenski«, morda celo takrat, ko govorimo o narodnosti."

Trans: (The next word is »Slovene« ( it is pronounced similar as an abbreviation for Slovenia-vino »Slovin«), and is explained as Slovene, Slovene language, Slovene -- a native). Oxford Dictionary in Microsoft Encarta knows for us far better and more convenient form of »Slovenian« instead of ambiguous »Slovene«. Also Komac-Škerlj: Slovene(!) English Modern Dictionary alleges beside »Slovene« also »Slovenian«, but it does not declare for the recommended form, what is bad for me. By all means we should preferentially use the form »Slovenian« when we translate the adjective »Slovenian« and perhaps even then when we talk about nationality.)

The search of Slovene gives 'just' 42 and of Slovenian gives 242 words. So again Slovenian wins. Another one:

"Za Slovence v Pensilvaniji se formalno uporabljajo izrazi "Slovenian, Slovene and Windish". Prva dva se uporabljata izmenično, enakovredno, medtem ko se izraz "Windish" uporablja skoraj izključno za Slovence iz Prekmurja, ki živijo v Bethlehemu v Pensilvaniji."

Trans: (For Slovenes in Pennsylvania terms of "Slovenian, Slovene and Windish" are used. First two are used in turn, equally, meanwhile the term "Windish" is used almost exclusively for Slovenes from the Transmuraland (Prekmurje), who live in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania).

What do you mean that Slovenes are still catching up to the rest of the world? The simple answer to this was given by Chuck who said that he never meet noone who uses Slovenian. I am not disregarding the links you gave about Slovene companies. I have them in mind. But I believe that you're one of those funny quibblers who would spend the whole day trying to persuade such the unbelievers as I AM. On the other side you do not consider the facts I gave you from those great English dictionaries (You can also check about the Doubleday Dictionary at google if you want. It is mentioned many times as a good resource). In my opinion English dictionaries are still more relevant than the entire internet. Another fact is this: "Veliki angleško-slovenski slovar" of authors Grad, Škerlj, Vitorovič from 1997 uses both terms, but it has Slovenian as a noun just for the language slovenščina not for the natives Slovenec. So where did you find that Slovenian should also be used as a noun for natives? Just on the net? Please, check some other dictionaries if you have them... Anton Grad's "English-Slovene dictionary" from 1965 has both terms as adjective and as noun on the other side, but he chose the fist one for the name of the dictionary -- not "English-Slovenian dictionary"... I think that as you've already changed so many adjectives and nouns to your definitive form, you haven't done much. If I follow you I have to use Cilli instead of Celje, since I haven't met no native English speaker who uses Celje and so on, and so on. The same with Carinthia|Karantania and such. Thank you anyway for your insignificant service. And finally not to forget. I think that we still in the relevance to Slovene/Slovenian have to distinguish between American English and British English -- but, no, you're throwing everything in one basket. But, hey I am not confused -- you are. I simply use just one term -- Slovene, and you use another one and teach other to use the same... Continue in this way and you'll get very far. Leave behind all those crazy bad ass mother XJams :-) Best regards. --XJamRastafire 22:18 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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