Talk:Slavery
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An event mentioned in this article is an August 23 selected anniversary.
'An event mentioned in this article is a May 13 selected anniversary
Should this page also include a reference to gender/sexual slavery? -- Cayzle
- see sexual slavery
Does anyone know whether there were more humane approaches taken towards slaves in ancient Rome between 2 BC and 2 AD?
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ETYMOLOGY of slave slavery
can anyone provide the greek word in Greek SLAVES WERE BOUGHT AND SOLD in exchange FOR SALT eg: "BOUGHT in exchange for salt" sal....=[latin] salt
SALARIUM [latin] = payment "HALOONETEI" [greek] = SLAVE -eg: BOUGHT FOR SALT
hal....[greek]=salt --62.0.74.137 21:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)Media:salt.org.il which is the result of a monopoly
Was there any Asian slavery historically?
- In China, slavery did exist but take a much milder form. One of my aunt (age 75 as of 2001) is not related to us by blood. She was sold to my grandma when she was a few years old. Her mother couldn't afford to raise her, so the deal worked like a paid adoption with the understanding that the child would work like a slave instead of part of the family. She was a servant to my mom's family. My grandma didn't treat her like a slave though she had to do all the dirty work in the house. She grew up with my mother and they treat each other like sisters. Milage varies. Some child slaves did get abuse in inhumane way. But as soon as the Communist government took over, no one dared to admit to be a slave owner. So there was not real legal binding. But throughout Chinese history, rich people bought servants, they didn't just hire them. However, the slaves could buy back their freedom according to the original sales contract.
- There were eunuchs a plenty in China. These were often boys who had been sold into slavery by their parents. There was also sexual slavery of women in China and Japan. Farmers would sell their daughters to innkeepers to be prostitutes. Stargoat 22:00, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Before the turn of the century, the poor people in the area of Taisan (southern China) sold themselves as slaves. The money went to their family in Taisan while the men were shipped to the America to build railroads, do laundry, dig gold mine etc. Nowadays, most Chinatowns in the US are populated by Taisan people. Many are descendents of slaves.
- I believe that about 1/3 of the Korean population was enslaved at one point. And slavery was rampant in India. Can anyone check on this?
I honestly don't know, so I didn't bother to put it in. Thanks for adding 'Africa', by the way. There's something approximating western serfdom in China in some periods, but serfdom has to be distinguished from chattel slavery, too. --MichaelTinkler
Arguably, there is plenty of slave labor going on right now in labor camps in China staffed by political dissidents...of course, the Chinese would disagree with the description, though. --LMS
Yep. I guess we need a division for 'state socialism.' The broad definitions of slavery around lately all concentrate on the loss of control over work rather than chattel, and China would certainly qualify under that heading. --MichaelTinkler
How are we going to differentiate African Islamic slavery from African slavery. Currently there is nothing under Islamic slavery heading but under African slavery there is a lot about Islamic slavery. ---rmhermen
so far it doesn't seem out of line to me with an Africa entry - it's mainly sub-Saharan (Egypt the only exception) or treating Africa as a source for slaves. I for one know just enough about slavery in Islam and the nasty controversies it brings up to stay away from writing that part of the entry!
From the Mediterranean: Undoubtedly a majority of slaves were condemned to agricultural labor and lived hard lives. This seems to refer to the Roman latifundia, but from what I know, Greek slaves tended to be urban, with poorer citizens tilling the lands themselves outside of Sparta. Being a slave is never fun, especially if you happen to be female, yet again I don't think the treatment was that much worse than slaves received in America (relative to the well-being of the average citizen) and that did not seem to merit a comment. The strong exception to this were those slaves sentenced to work in mines, who in Greece and indeed all the Mediterranean and ancient world pretty much had to be worked to death in order to make mining profitable.
I guess I was inserting the 'hard life' line to avert criticism that by talking about manumission I was glossing over the lot of the slave. Manumission was a promise that never came for a majority. On the subject of Rural slavery, Greek small farming depended on slavery as well, though admittedly on a smaller scale than latifundia. In fact, I shudder to suggest it, but American slaveholding was one of the few that came even close to successful internal re-supply rather than depending on debt-slavery and foreign war to keep restocking the system. Slave smuggling existed in the 1830s-50s, but it was relatively minor, and the number of slaves were not falling. Lots of economic arguments about social change in the ancient world depend on boom&bust cycles of slave supply. --MichaelTinkler
To my knowledge, there really isn't any religious or cultural group that hasn't been slaves to someone at some point, but I'm not too sure. --Jzcool
I notice a link to "psychiatric slavery": Hello, central, get me doctor Szasz! The Anome
- Are you disputing/can you dispute Szasz' position or do you think this should be explained within the article? --Daniel C. Boyer
"Brazil legally abolished slavery in 1888, although the practice somewhat continues there to this day." -- Evidence, please.
Since when did evidence have to be presented for every fact in wikipedia. But since you asked, here you go - Brazil slavery law of 1888:
http://www.libertystory.net/LSDOCBRAZILSLAVERY.htm
- That only documents the law; I don't think anyone doubts that. If you had merely said "Brazil outlawed slavery in 1888", no one would have asked for evidence because that's a totally plausible, unremarkable fact. More interesting is your claim that it still exists in some degree. That claim is pretty extraordinary, and requires some evidence. Something like an Amnesty International report would be good. --LDC
- "That claim is pretty extraordinary" - I find nothing extraordinary regarding that claim. Is there some standard of "extraordinaryness" that should be used to judge which statements of fact require evidence and which statements of fact do not? It seems that the onus of proof should be on the individual who disputes a fact, not the individual who presents it, unless you want wikipedia to devolve into a state where every sentence needs evidence. Nonetheless, here is one (of many) references to modern slavery in Brazil: http://www.antislavery.org/archive/submission/submission1998-01Brazil.htm
Hey, there's nothing wrong with asking for evidence, especially in an encyclopedia. Thank you for providing some. This is interesting.
- Saying that a nasty practice ended somewher 120 years ago is relatively non-controversial. Saying that it still goes on in a particular place is bound to raise some questions. If there is slavery in Brazil or Sudan, our readers would probably like to know who says so. --Ed Poor
- I think the case of Sudan and elsewhere in North Africa is pretty well-known and uncontroversial. It was only Brazil that surprized me, because one generally thinks of that as a first-world nation.
- Calling it a "nasty practice" is making a value judgement. The existence of slavery is an objective fact, the legal status of slavery is an objective fact, but whether slavery is proper or improper is a subjective opinion. Wikipedia should strive to be free of opinion.
- Calling slavery a bad thing is pretty uncontroversial, but I agree that it would be better to at least imply an attribution of the opinion; for example, calling it "near-universally condemned practice..." or something.
- surely there's something about slavery in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Stating that would effectively be an NPOV way of saying it is a "nasty practice" -- Tarquin 18:16 Sep 25, 2002 (UTC)
- the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not an arbiter of neutrality, it is a document that was created with political influence. You could state the fact that the UDHR makes statements opposed to slavery, but you could just as well state the fact that historical documents from 3,000 BCE to ~1800 CE made statements in favor of slavery. I suppose the meta question here is this: "Is making a neutral reference to a biased source inherently a neutral act?"
I have added a page on Wikipedia about an African Slave [SEE: George John Scipio Africanus], If you would like to can you add a link to my page? [23/8/2004]. richard_pearson2@yahoo.co.uk
Slavery in Brazil
This reference [1] (http://www.brazilnetwork.org/slav2.htm) speaks of a kind of debt-bondage akin to slavery, reminiscent of the situation in Robert Heinlein's short novel Logic of Empire. --Ed Poor
Stating that there is debt bondage in Brazil is not vandalism but is something that is an objective fact. See for yourself; [2] (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Brazil&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_epq=debt+bondage&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images). --mav
To 128.193.88.187 (I think):
Okay, I thought I was writing good material that addressed the issues you raised, and personally, I find this kind of talk-page discussion unproductive (you see the mish-mosh of post/counterpost that's appearing here now), but here goes:
"Slavery was legally ended ... although the practice has continued illegally to this day." - You produced evidence that slavery existed in the early 1990s, and I thanked you for doing so. Do you have any evidence that slavery exists now, that the government initiatives have not been effective?
"although it is not clear that these steps will be sufficient" - This is superfluous, isn't it? When is it "clear" that any government activities will be sufficient? We always have to wait and see, no?
Respectfully awaiting your reply.
- We have freedom of speech on the talk pages, although we generally try to focus on the matter of improving the article. I can call slavery "nasty" here; in an article I would not: we were discussing when and why to provide references. Something that is common knowledge such as the earth goes around the sun every 365 1/4 days needs no reference. That a particular government permits slavery within its territory probably does need one (many black US politicians deny that Sudan has slavery, so you see that there is some controversy). Anyway, thank you for contributing, and keep up the good work! --Ed Poor
- Ed Poor wrote Do you have any evidence that slavery exists now?
- Are you now attempting to impose some standard for the temporality of evidence? Nobody can prove that slavery exists *now*, for it is possible that slavery spontaneously ended five minutes ago. You may follow this link for evidence that slavery existed in Brazil as of May of 2002: http://www.antislavery.org/archive/submission/submission2002-Brazil.htm
- Also of note in the above source is this tidbit "three landowners from the south of Pará state, including one who has been denounced for using slave labour, signed an agreement (Termo de compromisso) with the Labour Prosecution Service and the Regional Labour Delegation of Pará. The agreement means that the federal police no longer have the authority to investigate cases of slave labour in this region. "
Hey, lighten up. I'm not trying to impose anything. I'm not talking about a proof that defeats solipsism or even holds up in a court of law. I've just spent the better part of the last 2 hours digging up reports about debt bondage and starting an article on it.
Apparently debt bondage is a form of slavery even if it's not the same as chattel slavery where human beings are bought and sold as "property" and kept in chains or hamstrung for trying to escape.
I can quit my job any time I want, and simply walk out of my office building, and no one will try to stop me. In Brazil, can laborers in "debt bondage" simply walk away from the land they're working on? Will police (or others) force them back, using weapons?
I'm not doubting. I'm on your side, man!! Please don't confuse requests for solid scholarship with debate tactics: I H A T E slavery, okay? --Ed Poor
- You are free to "HATE" slavery. I am neutral on the topic, caring not whether it is legal or illegal, nor whether it exists or has been extinguished. I came to this entry with the section regarding Brazil being blank, and fleshed it out with the two germane, neutral, and factual points that slavery was legally abolished in 1888 yet persists to this day. Debating the nature of slavery in Brazil perhaps belongs in the entry on Brazil instead of within slavery.
I have read that slavery was abolished in England in 1772, but I don't remember where I read that. I am surprised at how little information on this is available on the web. Can anyone confirm that date? I also read that in a lawsuit in Scotland shortly after that, a court decided that that statute was applicable in Scotland as well as England, and the consequence was that the plaintiff, David Knight, was freed. Michael Hardy 00:51 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)
- In 1806 the United States passed legislation that banned the importation of slaves ... The importation of slaves into the United States was banned on January 1, 1808.
So which is it? Was it banned in 1806 or in 1808? Somebody needs to make up their mind.... --Michael 21:15 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- The bill was introduced in 1805, debated through 1806 and signed into law March 2, 1807. It could not go into effect because of restrictions in the Constitution until Jan 1 1808. Rmhermen 21:42 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Black living in America
I read somewhere that slaves in the US South lived better than (free black?) industrial workers in the North. Can somebody deal with it? -- Error
And I've heard that blacks are better off in the US after being forcibly enslaved from their homeland. But so help me, if someone is willing to put that in there a few hundred people here will line up to kick their butts.
Sorry Error, that's my sarcastic way of saying: No. Not only is that unqualifiable by reliable sources it is often a point of emotional contention between revisionists and historians. --Duemellon 14:55, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Economy
Something should be said on how the economic structure makes slavery acceptable or not. -- Error 06:44, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I tried, was edited out. Not acceptable, but better than starving.
I'm astonished that no one bothered to challenge 142.177's large additions of POV junk. I don't think he/she/it used any actual authorities. Even the Oxford Classical Dictionary has multiple pages on this subject, and it's clear that what was added here is totally amateur where it's not outright wrong. I don't have the time or references to fix this up right now though. Stan 17:45, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I've set the year of slavery abolition in Mauritania to 1981 as this is the year that an actual law abolishing slavery was introduced. This is also the year used by Amnesty. In 1980 the government stated that slavery was unwanted (or something).
Problem with definition
This article defines "slavery" more broadly than some (yes,including me) are comfortable.De facto slavery is said outright to be slavery,but I think it is better distinguished from the legal status of being a slave.I dare say that to most people "slavery" means only the latter.--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com
- Please elaborate. I understand that you think the definition is broad and I agree that it might be broader than some (including me) think of it. But please come with some kind of specific alternative. Here it is defined as involuntary servitude, what would your definition be? This is the definition from the 1926 slavery convention: status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers of the right of ownership are exercised. Maybe we could find some more definitons from the UN and Amnesty f. ex.? -- Dittaeva 11:49, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I think that modern de facto slavery is best described specifically as "involuntary servitude" (the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits both,not using one as a catchall for the other,though the latter is legal as a form of sentence for a crime).Not sure whether it should be a heading in this article or a separate article.But those who are treated as slaves without legally being slaves are in a different condition legally if not practically.--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com
Predates every institution of ownership
I removed this sentence from the first paragraph:
- It predates every institution of ownership and authority, and its definition has changed over time to reflect those institutions in every society.
How is it that slavery predates the institution of property? This does not seem provable one way or the other, and to me seems unlikely at best. Tempshill 18:56, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Unfree labour
I added this term (removed by someone else) because it is a collective/generic term for chattel slavery, indenture, debt bondage, peonage, etc. As a practising labour historian, I can assure you that there is now a large body of academic/scholarly literature devoted to it; a simple Google search for "unfree labor OR unfree labour" will produce nearly 3,000 hits.[3] (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&edition=au&q=%22unfree+labour%22+OR+%22unfree+labor%22&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web)
I think the etymology is clear if you think about it; it is "un-free" in the sense of being the opposite of "free people", not in the sense of free goods or services. I will write a page on unfree labour shortly. I also think it needs to be mentioned on the slavery page.Grant65 (Talk) 03:32, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)
- Fine, no probs. The someone else is me. I removed it because the intro to the article was suddenly bisected by the words "a form of unfree labour" containing a dead link which did not expain what unfree is. Your point/s are obviously taken and accepted. But could I suggest the current three-sentence intro paragraph remain, followed by a second paragraph containing a mention and basic explanation of "unfree"? Cheers Grant 65/ Moriori 07:36, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)
Spliting the page up
I wanted to add some stuff but I'm thinking the majority of this page needs to be put in separate articles. In particular I think there needs to be full article on the slavery of blacks in the U.S. pointing out the difference between it and the other kinds of slavery discussed in this article. Gbleem 19:07, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I sincerely agree. The history of slavery in the US is quite extensive & the differences between what the Civil war was about is disputable. I think the lengthy article of US slavery needs to be included in the US Slavery page, making this a more concise summary with the invitation to visit the US slavery page. This should also be done because of the direct relation between "Slavery in Colonial America" & "Slavery in North America". They are directly related topics. Also, note how little attention the comments about slavery in Mexico & Canada received. The extensive piece needs to be moved. --Duemellon 15:23, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Nazi Germany
What about slavery of Jews and Slavs by Nazi Germany? Weren't the workers of Oskar Schindler slaves?
Slavery in Australia
There's nothing on the page so far about slavery in Australia. In what could be a controversial subject, I thought that rather than add a section to the page, I would raise the issue here first. Mainly, the issue here is whether people would consider what happened to the New Caledonian Kanakas in the Queensland cane fields as slavery or not.
From the site http://www.queenslandsugar.com/page.cfm?pageid=169 "Between 1863 and 1904, more than 60,000 Kanakas (as they were called) were brought to Queensland to work on sugar plantations, some illegally through a process known as "blackbirding". This involved Europeans luring islanders onto ships by pretending they wanted to trade with them. Instead, they would kidnap the Kanakas and ship them to Australia where they were forced to work on the sugar cane plantations and live under very poor conditions."
Considering that Queensland Sugar is the descendant company of the 19th century plantation owners & therefore possibly adding some sugar to its past (so to speak), kidnapping people & forcing them to work in cane fields for what appears to be little or no money, sounds like slavery to me.
Additionally, the treatment of indigenous Australians, whereby many were restricted to settlements and made to work for usually no more than food and shelter, could also be seen as slavery. Thoughts, anyone? --Roisterer 02:18, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- It depends what you mean by "slavery", a term which these days is usually only applied to chattel slavery. Unfree labour is the generic term for slave-like conditions. As it happens, I'm working at the moment on a thesis relating to Aboriginal labour in the 19th Century. It seems there were some instances of chattel slavery involving both indigenous Australians and Kanakas.
- However, the typical systems of unfree labour in each case was different and neither involved the legal ownership of individuals for life, which defines chattel slavery. In the case of Aborigines in the sheep and cattle industries, up to the 1960s in many cases, they were often effectively confined to stations (i.e. "ranches") on or nearby their traditional/ancestral land. As you say they were "paid" with food, shelter and clothing. There was freedom of movement, especially in quiet seasons, and small cash wages were introduced, in more and more cases, over the years. This, it seems to me, had more in common with serfdom than with chattel slavery, although it was different to both. The system, in most cases, ended between 1947, the beginning of a major strike in the Pilbara region, and 1968, when the award (minimum) wage was introduced. In almost all cases, station owners chose to employ a few staff, using technology like 4x4 vehicles to do the bare minimum of work necessary to make a profit.
- In the case of the Kanakas in Queensland, as far as I'm aware, they were generally part of indentured labour systems rather than chattel slavery, although there were instances of the latter. For an excellent, interesting and often-cited article on this, see: Adrian Graves, 1983, "Truck and Gifts: Melanesian Immigrants and the Trade Box System in Colonial Queensland", in: Past & Present (no.101, 1983). Cheers,Grant65 (Talk) 02:15, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
Why I reverted
I deleted the following because of its POV-ness: RickK 05:21, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
- Some of it may be added in a more NPOV way, at least if some reference is given, but I'm not shure the heading is appropriate since there are other "modern instances of slavery" mentioned elsewhere in the text, such as in Brazil and Africa. --Dittaeva 07:45, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Modern Instances of Slavery
Modern Slavery does not officially exist in traditional sense. However it continues indirectly by legal justification through rigid and even longer prison sentences, wherein prisoners are used as cheap labour across the world. The abolishing of the term slavery and its denouncement in official declaration has created an idea that slavery is an idea of the past. However despite linguistic masking the use of man power as free or cheap labour is the principle aspect of slavery under servitude.
In the United States there are around 2 million people serving sentence in prisons. This is a large man power for cheap work for industries. Prison industrial complex is a thriving business in the U.S. In fact the largest prison operator in the U.S. is called the Correction Corporations of America. Many large corporations use cheap labour form these prisons and thus boost the economy. It is therefore not coincidental that with the rise of corporate economy, people all over the world have inclined towards more rigid and very long prison sentences for those who previously would have returned much earlier to the society as free citizens. In India the official minimum daily wage for a free citizen is around Rs 50 a day. This was constituted for a working day of 8 man hours. In prisons however the inmates have to work from morning 6 a.m. to evening 7 p.m. and the daily wage for 13 hours of labour is Rs 5 per day. (which is one tenth of a U.S. dollar).
In practice, there is not much difference between the ancient Romans using slaves and convicted prisoners as galley slaves in ancient warships called as Trireme, and modern nations using prison labour as cheap industrial resource. Therefore, it could be argued that in modern times since the end of British colonialism, slavery has become a legalized activity, legitimized by the governments and public through prison system.
- But Roman galleys were rowed by free paid labor. Ben Hur got it wrong.Septentrionalis 18:35, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Nonsense. For one thing, in the UK at least prisoners are not obliged to work. Secondly, the cost of keeping a prisoner far exceeds the value of the work they do.
Exile 22:50, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
modern instances of slavery
Deleting a section of writing or passage, and calling it a rant on the basis of the opinion of a single person is definitely POV. The wikipedia policy is to delete written material only after much discussion, not having a discussion after a writing has been deleted.
The wikipedia article on NPOV states: "The neutral point of view policy states that one should write articles without bias, representing all views fairly.
The neutral point of view policy is easily misunderstood. The policy doesn't assume that it's possible to write an article from just a single unbiased, "objective" point of view. The policy says that we should fairly represent all sides of a dispute, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct."
Anyway that does not mean I intend to revert the article to what had been written under Modern instances of slavery, because I do not believe in edit wars. But non consensual editing is categorically most damaging, and against the very spirit of the wikipedia. --Robin klein 10:29, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- What are you going to do then? There's content there I'd like included. I recommend you either change the heading, integrate it somewhere else in the text, or try to put all modern instances of slavery under the header. When you write "However it continues indirectly by legal justification through rigid and
even longer prison sentences, wherein prisoners are used as cheap labour across the world. The abolishing of the term slavery and its denouncement in official declaration has created an idea that slavery is an idea of the past. However despite linguistic masking the use of man power as free or cheap labour is the principle aspect of slavery under servitude" you most certainly "state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct."
Some parts of the passages in this section may be POV, however there are sections that holds water. At least that is what even you seem to agree on. If you do not mind, please incorporate the valid points into the article leaving out the opinionated bits of the passages. Or else maybe one could include the passages under the heading 'modern prison systems and slavery', and leave out the opinionated passages from it. After all collaborative writing is what the wikipedia is all about. --Robin klein 18:17, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I know, will try to find some time, but there is so much in this article that needs working...I am afraid of starting. --Dittaeva 19:39, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
My feeling is that the section on US prisons etc is not really POV, but -- like a lot of other stuff on the present slavery page -- it would be better placed on the unfree labour page. I believe one of the reasons why unfree labour has emerged as a term among labour historians in recent years was that no two people agreed exactly on what "slavery" was. These days historians usually only use the word "slavery" in relation to chattel slavery, which clearly does still exist, rather than bonded/indentured labour, convict labour, etc.Grant65 (Talk) 10:05, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
There should be a numerical dominance of content referring to the present. Sarcelles 22:50, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
- Why? Grant65 (Talk) 00:22, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
- It is normal for a topic, which applies for about 27 million people today to have an article that is covering the present state mainly. Sarcelles 05:17, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Free the Slaves claim there are that many. A lot of things that get called "slavery" by popular culture, the media, advocacy groups (etc), do not meet generally accepted definitions. That is to say, they are really forms of indenture, debt bondage, etc. Even if "27 million" were correct, it is relatively few compared to the total number of slaves in history. But feel free to add more material about the present. Other Wikipedians may feel that it belongs on other pages. Grant65 (Talk) 08:17, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
- I think the History of slavery should become its own article.
Sarcelles 04:57, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Prisons and forced Slave labour
Hi Pir,
You left a message on my user talk. Thanks for your words. The passage dealing with prison and slavery for the article on slavery was written based on a very strong movement across countries which most people call as prison slavery.
The movement is strong in Britain and other parts of the world. So one cannot state that it is nonsense to say that prisons use slave labour, regardless of whether it is called as that. Besides the argument that the cost of prisons is higher than the work they do, implies that the public at large approves it.
Here are a few links, some of which are more neutral than others. However you can go through all of them, to get a complete view of the validity of the term and its current social context.
http://www.thewinds.org/1996/12/modern_slavery.html (prison slavery in the United States)
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/mt/mt11labor.html (maoists international movement against prison slavery)
http://www.enrager.net/hosted/caps/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=241 (campaign against prison slavery in Britain)
http://www.prisonactivist.org/crisis/labor-of-doing-time.html (essay on prison slavery by Julie Brown)
http://www.geocities.com/youth4sa/prisonlabor.html (prison slave labour factories)
http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/news/china130801.htm (slave labour on increase in China)
http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/200406/20434.html (slave labour in china's forced labour camps)
http://www.veggies.org.uk/news/bullet04a.htm ( forced slave labour in Britain)
Deleting a text because it could be controversial is but the greatest threat to the very idea of a wikipedia. There are several other high quality encyclopedias in the world that are well researched and well written. However these hard copies being official versions leave out a lot of controversial topics and also have to take a lot of permissions from several sovereign states for official approval. The wikipedia is meant to be a repository of knowledge which otherwise would never have been expressed or known, without of course being compromised on authenticity. Else the wikipedia would turn out to be just another official version, and that would be a classic example of the waste of time of literally millions of people around the world.
Deleting a passage because it is not conforming to the official view is the worst form of POV and vandalism. In that several wikipedians engage in, without being realized and ironically even commended for it instead of being condemned for it. The issue here is pervasive and far reaching, and therefore such deleting should be stopped.
Since you stated that in your opinion my passage was a worthy contribution to the article. I would please implore you to add whatever you feel is relevant and of NPOV. You can go through whatever had been written and the links that have been posted here, and maybe write an even better passage on the relevant topic and with a more NPOV content.
Are the arguments that we do not want POV statements concerning the definition of slavery so that modern (e.g. CCA) practices fall under this definition? Or is it desired the (non-neutral) POV be balanced by an a;termative NNPOV that shows how CCA helps the prisons, prisoners, society, and the economy (in addition to aiding the democratic political process through massive contributions to candidates) - I'm sure CCA could provide material supporting that viewpoint. Alternatively, that portion of the article could be salted with lots of weasle words.Leonard G. 21:11, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Middle Passage
Added a reference to the Middle Passage in the Slavery in Africa. --Duemellon 14:08, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Goverment Slavery
Err... whatever heading would befit this. It'd be a new heading that would contain the establishment of slavery for individuals as determined by the needs or desires of the government from local to national needs. This would include conscription/drafts, socialism, communism, sefdom, prison labor, civil service, and things along those lines. With the initial definition of slavery so broad (which I think is appropriate, actually) that would include these situations. However, I find the distinction between private &/r business-owned slaves versus Government Slaves important. If the concept of socialism &/r communism being viewed as slaves sounds POV, then include that it is a POV.
Anyway, that's what I think is a good option to discuss current situations of force servitude. --Duemellon 15:30, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- See the unfree labour article. IMO referring to all socialist/communist governments as slave-drivers definitely is way too POV.Grant65 (Talk) 00:55, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
Slavery in North America
The fiercest combatants were abolitionists and the slaves themselves against an array of planters in the South and pro-slavery shipping interests in the East,
The abolitionists weren't all fighters. Most were pacifists. The war was between the Union & Secessionists, not abolitionists & slaveholders. That 2nd set of titles was secondary & not always true. Perhaps I'm misreading this sentence, and if so, please add additional clarity. --Duemellon 12:19, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
List of Famous People in Slavery
I wanted to include a list of famous people who were enslaved at some point. I really like those being included in articles as it gives an opportunity to understand what happened in their time
- Frederick Douglas, African-American slave turned abolishinist
- Spartacus, Roman slaves who led the Servile Revolt?
- Harriet Tubman,
- Nat Turner, escaped and led revolt
etc. etc... Such would be apprapo right? --Duemellon 13:37, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Toussaint L'Ouverture
- Onesimus
- Enrique, the slave of Magellan, who became the first man to go around the globe.
- Malinche.
- Some of those Greek slave pedagogues.
- Is being held for ransom like Cervantes and Richard Lionheart to be a slave? Forced labout in the gulag or KZ?
-- Error 01:24, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
List began today. --Duemellon 20:10, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Etymology
I just think it's amusing that the article both propounds and repudiates the theory of an etymological connection between "slave" and "Slav'. DS 17:54, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I agree; I was about to comment on that myself. --Bletch 16:21, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Why did Caribbean Slaves...
On top of being abysmally written the section, Why Did Caribbean Slaves produce so few Children? Is more an essay than encyclopaedia material. I've cleaned up some of the more egregious spelling and grammar errors. Dhodges 13:57, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I think it was more a question of "how did any of their children survive to produce more children?" There was a prodigious death rate in the Caribbean, which is probably why the slaves there rebelled more often and more successfully than those on the mainland Americas. Grant65 (Talk) 02:37, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
Positive Aspects?
Why aren't there any positive aspects of slavery discussed?
- Such as? Profits for their owners? Grant65 (Talk) 02:37, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
- They may not be as prominent today, but slavery has had its apologists. There is the white man's burdern argument that about lifting the backwards tribemen into civilization, and how they are better off in civilization then as savages. You can also argue American slavery successfully converted people to Christianity, if you assume that is a good thing. You can also argue that they would've died without help, and the humble slave owner took them in, and gave them a place in life. Slaves are able to part of something bigger than themselves.
- Also, I think you can argue that, slaves are only replaced by mindless machines. If you agree with Ted Kazynski, I suppose you could argue slavery would be a better alternative. (from 128.151.93.98 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=128.151.93.98))
Riiiiiight. Mr. Billion 18:10, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Citation
I'm a bit confused by the latest edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Slavery&curid=27992&diff=0&oldid=0) - why is it only mention of bad working conditions in the USA that need to be cited? Don't the other countries needed need citations if one does? sheridan 15:39, 2005 Jan 7 (UTC)
- One would also be needed for Canada, and there is a link there. Also, it isn't just bad working conditions, there must also be a lack of rights and effective recourse to enforce them. I can't question the other countries, because I am unfamiliar with them, although I've heard they have these problems, I don't recall the details. I assume good faith on those that added them. I question the USA addition because I don't know what was meant by it. They may not have had something specific in mind. Since I am familiar with the USA and Canada, I question these without documentation. Documentation also lessens generizations with specifics, a form of qualifying. Also, I was monitoring the page when the USA was added, and not when the others were. Since they have been on the page for awhile, they may already have gone through a vetting process, that I have not familiarized myself with, since I haven't reviewed the archives.--Silverback 15:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Who was the first writer to call for the abolition of slavery? There's been a recent edit that some Christian writers in Late Antiquity e.g. John Chrysostom called for the aboliton of slavery. However the page for Saint Patrick claims that he was the first. This is actually a fairly important historical issue, it should be resolved. PatGallacher 02:02, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)
- I find both of these doubtful; but I have not read all of Chrysostom - few have. There is a strong tendency for modern Christian biographers to read any saint who pleads for decent conduct within a system as intending its abolition. Septentrionalis 02:38, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
- Given that Patrick was an escaped slave, I wonder why his opposition to the practice is doubted. As to whether he was the first - I just don't know. --ClemMcGann 09:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
- Because his writings (in Wikisource) show that he was opposed to the slave trade, especially the enslavement of free Christians - but this is not abolition of slavery. Septentrionalis 02:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
- Celtic Christians did not own slaves. Within a generation, slavery, in Ireland, ceased. If they didn't get that idea from Patrick, where did it come from? --ClemMcGann 08:41, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Slavery in Rome and Greece
A big chunk of this appears to be from the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
§ 48. Christianity and Slavery. (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc1/htm/i.VIII.48.htm). Public domain, apparently. --Dhodges 06:10, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Those who cite a text should read it first. The Old Oligarch expressly says that the slaves at Athens did not have to fear someone other than their master. The claim that the andrapoda who deserted to Decelea were mineslaves exclusively is contrary to Thucydides 7.27.5, which says most of them were cheirotechnai, handicraftsmen. Septentrionalis 02:32, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
The extensively original research just reverted does pique my interest. Are the anonymous editors reading akolasia, "intemperance", as a claim of right?16:42, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
For more discussion on the Slavery in Greece section, please see Talk:Douloi. A sock puppetteer there has been pushing the POV that the people called in Ancient Greek δούλοι (douloi) were not really slaves, although they were not free to resign, could be bought and sold, and their children inherited the condition. Modern scholarship is unanimous in calling them slaves. All the other editors agree that this is an untenable and tendentious position, and believe that douloi should redirect to slavery, as it currently does, despite his insistent reversions. Now the sock puppeteer has begun injecting his position into the slavery article. I ask that editors here be vigilant. --Macrakis 22:48, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Serfdom in Russia
AFAIK it was widely possible in Russian to trade 'serfs' with no relation to land. Hystorcally it was serfdom but gradually (beginning in the last quarter of XVII) the 'serfdom' evolutioned to something pretty close to slavery. How that correction could be accomodated to the structure of the article? --GS 14:37, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Second edition of serfdom
AFAIK (I am not an historian) the reintroduction of serfdom in Eastern Europe was caused by some economical reasons, the same reasons which caused existence of slavery in both Americas. I am not quite sure that was the reasons, something like presence of world wide (?) market for some agricultural products. At least I'd like to see better explanation of slavery as economical phenomenon. --GS 16:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Gigantic section headings
Why are the section headings in this article bigger than what it conventional in Wikipedia? Michael Hardy 21:41, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
- Possibly because it is a long article, there are a lot of subsections, and it can get quite difficult to distinguish between them.Grant65 (Talk) 23:58, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
New discussions
free speech right? and other Greek questions
"slaves in Athenian Democracy had the free speech right,"
The text of pseudo-Xenophon cannot be construed so as to support this statement. Is it original research or is it simply a misunderstanding of the force of English right? Septentrionalis 19:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
[slaves] even had the right of an advocate Fascinating; is this reading pronous as 'advocate'? Septentrionalis 16:11, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Japan
The section on Japan is grossly inadequate at present; in fact it's almost a whitewash. It stops with the supposed "abolition" of slavery in Manchuko, which is bit like finishing a history of Nazi Germany with the building of the autobahns! Hundreds of thousands of people were used as slave labour by the Empire of Japan in 1937-45, if not earlier. I intend to mention this. Grant65 (Talk) 00:32, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
- I have made this an own article. Now there is a link to it, not a developed section.
Sarcelles 09:06, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The status of African slaves compared to Caribbean slaves
This section is both POV, and misspelled with bad grammar. For example this section is POV:
Caribbean slavery granted the masters complete freedom over the control of their slaves. Caribbean slaves often worked on cane estates suffering hardship in harsh conditions and supervised under demanding masters. The sugar industry caused the need for the complete control the master needed over the slaves in order to meet demands and control the harvest. Caribbean sugar plantations resembled factories in a modern capitalist society..
So what it is saying is that conditions in factories in the western world is equal to that of slaves in the Caribbean?
--Konstantin 08:28, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I suggest removal of this section to a separate article. Sarcelles 12:26, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I see no use of the entire section and consider if it maybe should be deleted. It seems to be more personal opinions and feelings of an individual than facts... --Konstantin 07:41, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
first section
It seems to me that slavery is an institution or an idea whereby one person owns another. That the first thing said about slavery in this article is that it can be "enforced by violence or other forms of coercion" is like saying "marriage can mean one or more related conditions which involve two people in a committed relationship, often kept in such a condition for disfunctional reasons such as spousal abuse" at the top of the article on marriage. While that is true and marriages that stay together because of disfunctional reasons and it could be mentioned, it shouldn't be the first thing mentioned. The perspective on slavery from the perspectives of the authors of wikipedia (predominantly americans), are highly influenced by emotionally-charged instances of extreme abuse associated with the atlantic slave trade and souther plantations, whereas such abuse isn't inherent in the ownership of another person. Slave abuse must be mentioned but it should not be implied that abuse is definitive or necessary in slavery. Johnathlon 08:12, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Slavery in Islam
Michael White's website makes a point about the current entry being much worse than the previous one.[4] (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm#MuSlavery) Is there a reason not to revert to the original text? Was something inaccurate? "The Muslim Arab World also traded in slavery, especially with the Byzantine Empire. These consisted of Turkic and Circassian males from northern Black Sea regions who were enlisted into the army. This soldier class was named Mamelukes and were mainly responsible for the expulsion of the Crusaders from Palestine. Officially, Islam dislikes the idea of slavery and had set rules for dealing with slaves, such as mandated liberation on conversion to Islam, an insistence that slaves be clothed and fed in the same manner as is their master, and that they not be forced into marriage, among other prohibitons. Slavery was abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1962, making it one of the last countries to ban this practice."
--Goodoldpolonius2 22:28, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- See whether the hadiths cited do not include such a point, and then be bold. Septentrionalis 23:10, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Fragmentation/reduction/spinning-off of article
I'm not happy about the way this has been done, as a lot of sections are essentially now just stubs (or worse). I note that also the explanation given for one of the new articles: "section of minor importance". By whose definition? Grant65 (Talk) 10:07, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
- I moved Slavery in antiquity purely to reduce the article length, which was approaching 60K. I do not think much more than a paragraph per section will fit. Please write any non-controversial summary paragraph you wish. (I cannot speak for others, but it looks to me like their moves were mostly similar.) Septentrionalis 01:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- There had to be done something on the article's length. 20 pages are enough. The article was to heavily biased on history.
Sarcelles 08:18, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC) I still see this article as to long. The history section should have a clear focus on the U. S., as most of us are Americans. Sarcelles 20:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Is this a joke? Grant65 (Talk) 22:12, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
- I consider it to be desirable to have a focus on the present situation, as slavery is the state about 27 million people of the present live in. Sarcelles 22:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that there should be more about the present. But there is no reason why this article should concentrate on Slavery in the United States, especially as there are already several other articles that deal with it. (cf slavery in Colonial America, etc.) If you want to reduce this article, I suggest you move some of this material to those pages. Unless of course, it is already there. Grant65 (Talk) 12:22, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
- Is this a joke? Grant65 (Talk) 22:12, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
Marriage
I'm going to remove the reference to marriage in the first paragraph. Marriage is not associated with slavery in any conventional way. If someone has an axe to grind by comparing the two I'm not going to complain about an entry in the body of the page, but trying to link the two in the first paragraph which should define what slavery is is not appropriate. PeteVerdon 22:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)