Talk:Silesian language
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See also Talk:Silesian language/Delete for an archived deletion discussion.
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Silesian language does not equal Silesian dialect
Because someone obviousely mixed it up, I added, that the Silesian language discribed here, is totally unrelated to the german dialect before WWII. Because in Germany the term "Schlesischer Dialekt" (Silesian dialect) still is used for this nearly died German dialect this hint should be given in text. But, I propose, that this article primarly shoud be used for the current Silesian language, spoken by the mayority in this area _today_. Steven, Germany 82.82.117.221 22:50, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I don't know which side (there may even be more than two sides) to believe here, so I'm going purely with the Ethnologue classifications. If you want to convince me that Ethnologue is wrong, then attempt to do so using neutral and credible sources. Otherwise, I'll keep reverting both sides.
- Daniel Quinlan 22:56, Nov 3, 2003 (UTC)
three languages with the same name -> that should be expressed
Obviously we are talking about three (!) languages/dialects with a similar name know (1. slawonic language, 2. polish dialect, 3. german dialect). All of them may be correct, but I think that should be expressed in the text. Naming just the German dialect is escapist. Steven, Germany 82.82.117.221 22:57, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Your conclusion is not obvious to me at all. I see:
- A Polish dialect, Upper Silesian — in the Slavic language family
- A Germanic language, Lower Silesian — in the Germanic language family
- The second some may consider to be a dialect and the first some may consider to be a language, but I'm choosing to go by the Ethnologue reports which seem to be the most credible and neutral source available. Did you read the Ethnologue reports? What is the third language/dialect that you see? Daniel Quinlan 23:12, Nov 3, 2003 (UTC)
Naming, even it is not correct!
Even it is not the same it could be mixed up. Therefore it is indicated to name both, also the polish dialect.
Upper != Upper, Lower != Lower Silesian (-: Language!=Dialect?
The third one was named by Grzes above. I don't know about its background.
I just can tell, that I have both upper (grand father) and lower silesian (grand mother) (german) relatives (expulsed in the 1950ies). Both groups spoke a german regional dialect (Oberschlesisch=upper silesian german dialect // and // (Niederschlesisch=lower silesian german dialect, which you may name "Lower Silesian language"). Because a Gerhard Hauptmann link in the article exists, I can tell you that this is the dialect of my Grandmother. She always called her dialect just "Schlesisch" (Silesian).Of course today you will find an upper and lower silesian regional dialect of polish in the area that may have the same name. Perhaps -- even though you are right scholarly -- you should post your article putting in these commentarial details to avoid mix-ups. Steven 82.82.117.221 23:26, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Please protect the page!
Since there seems to be a disagreement, I propose to protect the article. Perhaps other voices of language experts should discuss "Silesian language" in this Talk area. To propose a compromise, in the article should both be named the nearly died "german dialect" and the now spoken "polish dialect" to avoid confusions, adding the hopefully generally accepted scholary view of the linguists. Steven 82.82.117.221 23:49, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
No need to protect, the content of the Lower Silesian language is perfectly OK. I reverted because I wanted the contents of the previous page back, andwhne I wanted to return to your version, you stepped in. I am sorry I made you angry. I will abstain from editing The Lower Silesian lang page. Thank you CC, 23:56, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I was asked to protect this page, which I have done, primarily to stop it being moved until the correct title can be ascertained. Angela 00:01, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
Now I'm a little bit confused. Therefore I will stay away for some hours, too, to see what has happend here. (-: Steven 82.82.117.221 00:04, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Questions
This page is about the Germanic language/dialect, not the Slavic language/dialect. The Slavic one is currently located at Upper Silesian. Please don't rename it. I probably should have moved the Silesian language article to Upper Silesian instead of here, but let's forget about the history and just try to figure out the right solution for both pages. My initial questions are:
- is "Lower Silesian", the Germanic dialect/language, still spoken?
- is "Upper Silesian", the Slavic dialect/language a dialect or a language? Ethnologue is quite clear that they consider it to be a dialect, but some people here seem to be quite firm in the belief that it is a language. We can and should, of course, list both views on that page. I respectfully suggest that we not do that just yet, though, and perhaps allow a neutral person who does not have a firm opinion to make those changes.
- are there better English names for either? What does UNESCO, Ethnologue, or another plausibly neutral organization call these languages/dialects?
I may have additional questions as we proceed. Thanks for your patience. Daniel Quinlan 00:16, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
I want to support this approach and want to add the following questions:
- is the english term "Lower Silesian language/dialect" (what ever it may be) used for the german dialect that "Gerhard Hauptmann" spoke and that was spoken until WWII or is it used for the polish dialect spoken today in the part of Silesia that was former german Lower Silesia? Or is it even used for both? The same question for "Upper Silesian".
- the german terms "Oberschlesisch" (literally Upper Silesian) and "Niederschlesisich" (literally Lower Silesian, also just "Schlesisch") both were used for german dialects spoken in the region. Is the literal translation to english wrong and is there as claimed a distinction between _slawic_ Upper Silesian and _german_ Lower Silesian (which I doubt).
- As I know "the Lower Silesian in Hauptmann's sense" still is used between Dresden and Görlitz in Germany (which is part of the german state of Saxony today but belonged to the german state of Lower Silesia until WWII) and a small german minority in (polish) Silesia, because of expulsory it is only a small rest. Can anyone confirm, that "Hauptmann's Silesian" is not completely dead off?
I want to stress, that this is not a political discussion, but a discussion about linguistic terms in english. Steven 82.82.117.221 00:33, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) t"
To begin to answer my questions:
- It seems that the term "Silesian" may be more commonly used than "Upper Silesian".
- I am getting the impression that "Lower Silesian" may be extinct, perhaps we can figure that out later.
- Most signs point to "(Upper) Silesian", the Slavic language, being a dialect of Polish rather than a language. However, it seems that many Silesians believe it is a language. I think the page discussing the Slavic language (Upper) Silesian should not be named either a "language" or a "dialect". So, for the time being I would propose:
- move the current text of Upper Silesian to Silesian without further modification for now
- have redirects point from Silesian language, Silesian dialect, Upper Silesian, Silesian ethnolect point to Silesian
- leave Lower Silesian alone for now
Daniel Quinlan 01:45, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
Silesian region, Silesian nation and Silesian language
I don't necessarily agree with all the quotations below, but I think they will explain much.
Culture, language and traditions of Silesia
The majority of the ethnic Silesians,who live only in Upper Silesia and make up about 40% of the Upper silesian population speak Silesian – a tongue which is stil not codified. It can be branched out into several dialects used rather in rural areas. In the future a Silesian-Polish dictionary i due to appear – an initiative of persons forming the Silesian Academic Association. This may lead to the codification of Silesian. The Silesian tongue, a hybrid of Czech, German and Polish, although almost on the verge of extinction, is still used by the native Upper Silesians.
Silesians are Roman Catholics – only in the southernmost part of Upper Silesia, Lutherans make up the majority. The Silesians are a very religious community – they are active in their parish life and attend religious celebrations in great numbers. Every year the Silesians attend pilgrimages of which the most important are the Workers` Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary at Piekary Slaskie and Men`s Pilgrimage to the St.Annaberg`s Sanctuary.
St.Annaber which is situated right in the centre of upper Silesia is the cultural and religious symbol of the Silesian identity.
The Silesians have always loved music. Nowadays many people still play traditional Silesian melodies in hundreds of music bands all over Upper Silesia. Particularly brass-bands are very popular among Silesians, that like lively melodies. They can also boast of many groups that maintain the traditional Silesian dances.
Cultural actions are essentially conducted by the very active regional movements, as for instance Silesian Academic Association (Slaski Zwiazek Akademicki) – an ally of the Silesian Autonomy Movement.
Ruch Autonomii Slaska publish a monthly “Jaskólka Slaska" where texts in Silesian often appear. It also sponsors prizes for winners of the Silesian dialect competiotion held every year. Activists of the Silesian Academic Association put much emphasis on the regional education – in fact their main aim is a formation of the Upper Silesian intelligentsia that would care much more about regional affairs. Many of the regionalists work in regional newspapers, magazines and radios, where they promote Silesian culture, traditions and language.
It is notable that the silesians, after forty years of communist and state indoctrination, are now witnessing the revival of the Silesian folklore.
http://www.rams.pl/ras/RuchAutonomiiSlaska/eng/culture/CultureLanguageTraditions.htm
- This seems to support the "Upper Silesian" name for the dialect/language that we are talking about. However, while some Silesians may view themselves as German-Silesians and some may view themselves as Polish-Silesians, I haven't seen anything that would indicate more than one active Silesian dialect/language. Daniel Quinlan 21:07, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
Jynzyk Siloonski - Silesian language
This shows a proposal for the Silesian language spelling. I don't think it is accepted widely, but ceirtanly this is not Polish, or Polish dialcet.
http://www.republikasilesia.com/silesia-club/jynzyksiloonski.html
Sample of the Silesian language
This sample is classsified as Polish (Silesian) which shows its undecided status. http://www.language-museum.com/p/polish-silesian.htm
Struggle for the Silesian nation recognition
Dear Friends,
Silesians in Poland make up a community of more than one million people. Nonetheless, founder-members of a minority movement, the Union of Population of Silesian Nationality, had to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights after the Polish Supreme Court ruled in 1998 that a Silesian nation does not exist. One of the biggest national minorities in Central Europe must now wait for a verdict of the European Court, which will rule whether Poland is obliged to recognise our nationality.
Although the Republic of Poland ratified the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, Silesians are officially regarded only as an ethnic group within the Polish nation. According to sociological research, about 15-20% of Upper Silesian people regard themselves Silesian, and as a nation separate from Poles, Czechs or Germans, but are refused official recognition by the State authorities. Moreover, those people are considered “separatists without national awareness”, in official propaganda.
Most likely the European Court will rule on our case in this spring or summer. We believe that the verdict will coincide with principles set out in the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, of which implementation by national/European structures we consider much more important to minorities than merely its ratification.
We kindly ask you to inform members of your association, party, your compatriots, governments of your region/nation and state, about our struggles and the situation of Silesians. Your assistance will be a great honour to us.
Yours sincerely,
Foreign Department of
the Silesian Autonomy Movement
www.raslaska.org
FOR RIGHTS OF SILESIAN NATION !
EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS STRASBURG MAY 17th, 2001
Silesians in Poland make up a community of more than one million people. Nonetheless, founder-members of a minority movement, the Union of Population of Silesian Nationality, had to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights after the Polish Supreme Court ruled in 1998 that a Silesian nation does not exist. One of the biggest national minorities in Central Europe must now wait for a verdict of the European Court, which will rule whether Poland is obliged to recognise our nationality. Although the Republic of Poland ratified the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, Silesians are officially regarded only as an ethnic group within the Polish nation. According to sociological research, about 15-20% of Upper Silesian people regard themselves Silesian, and as a nation separate from Poles, Czechs or Germans, but are refused official recognition by the State authorities. Moreover, those people are considered “separatists without national awareness”, in official propaganda.
ABOUT SILESIA
Silesia is a Central European country partitioned between three states: Poland, the Czech Republic and Germany. It consists of two historical regions: Lower and Upper Silesia. Its area is 44.992sq.km (Lower Silesia - 26.592 sq.km. Upper Silesia - 18.400 sq.km).It borders Saxony and Brandenburg (Germany), Wielkopolska and Małopolska (Poland), Moravia and Bohemia (the Czech Republic) and Slovakia. The capital and the largest city of Silesia is Wrocław (Breslau). Silesia`s other major cities include Legnica, Goerlitz, Opole (historical capital of Upper Silesia), Katowice, Gliwice and Opava. At present three artificial regions exist in Silesia, which respect neither regional traditions nor historical boundaries.
POPULATION OF SILESIA About 8 million people. Nowadays ethnic Poles, descendants of Polish new settlers who moved to Lower Silesia after 1945, constitute more than 95% of Lower Silesian population. The situation is different in Upper Silesia, where about 40% of the inhabitants are ethnic Silesians. The Upper Silesian population consists of ca. 25% of people of Silesian nationality (about 1 000 000 people), 10% of Germans and about 65% of Poles. Moravians and Czechs also live in the Czech part of Upper Silesia.
ABOUT SILESIANS
Under the communist regime/1945-1989/ the Silesian were either forced to leave their motherland or become Polish. According to historical research more than 90% of Lower Silesians /of German nationality/ and about 50% of the Upper Silesian population had to leave their homes and move to Germany. The rebirth of the Silesian nationhood and autonomism took place in late 1980's due to democratic changes in Poland and in the Central Europe. Nowadays the Silesian Autonomy Movement, the Upper Silesians' Association and the Silesian Academic Association are very active movements advocating autonomy for Silesia.
OUR GOALS Our main purpose is to protect our own identity. We will vigorously oppose all attempts of assimilation against our will. At the same time, remaining faithful to Silesian tradition of openness, we declare our readiness to cooperate with all national and ethnic groups living in Silesia in order to develop this land in every respect. Together with regionalist and minority groups, we will promote the model of a society diversified nationally, culturally and linguistically. A society whose keystone is common rights and civic liberties. We want to see a state that acts as a guarantor of these rights and not as a bureaucratic machine strangling the freedom of the individual. We proclaim categorical war on all forms of collectivism and centralism. By signing the Council of Europe's Framework Convention for the Rights of Minorities, Poland indubitably moved in the right direction. However, we believe that modernising Polish society will require developing new approaches to issues of honouring and guaranteeing national and minority rights. This becomes a stronger imperative with the European unification process.
Since we believe in justice we hope that the European Court of Human Rights will not deprive our nation of a right to be recognised as such.
http://www.republikasilesia.com/RAS/index.html
I don't necessarily agree with all the above quotations, but I think they will explain much.
Vandalising activities of some editors
I have nothing against the Lower Silesian language page, but I am very confused and angry that someone tries to destroy my work, destroy the history of my work, and tries to destroy backup copies of the materials I find valuable and informative. It is understandable that every editor has the right to make his/her contributions but the activies of renaming, redirecting that result in erasing the consecutive versions of the document can be named no other that VANDALISM
CC, 19:15, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Redirected articles still have a history and old versions are still available. Redirecting and moving articles is not vandalism. Your activity of creating additional articles to avoid discussing the issue makes it very difficult to proceed. You appear to be unwilling to work with other people to figure out what should be in the article (or articles) and calling people vandals is not helpful either. If you want to make "backup copies" because you don't understand how to use the history mechanism, do it in your own User namespace, not in the main article namespace. Daniel Quinlan 21:02, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your help. As I am quite new to this project may I ask a simple question: where are stored the historical versions of the Silesian language, Silesian ethnolect pages I made yesterday, and where are my contributions to the Talk pages of the respective articles. cc, 21:21, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- First, I'm as neutral a person as you're going to find: I have a long-standing interest in languages and I'm not Polish, German, Silesian, or Czech. The stored copies are exactly where you left them. Go to Silesian ethnolect: click on it, you'll be redirected. Click on the page title again and you'll get the redirect page, then click on history and you can look at old versions. However, if you restore the material or create a new page without discussion and agreement from othere, and I will almost certainly revert your changes. Please help us figure out a consensus here. If you want to work on your ethnolect page in the meantime, please do it under your User page. Thanks Daniel Quinlan 21:36, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
- I created it for you. Your last version of Silesian ethnolect is located at User:cc/Silesian. The page is not close to NPOV, though, so I doubt it would be accepted at Silesian. And please nobody create any new pages until we all agree. Just use Silesian for now. There are too many pages already. And cc, if you want to delete it, go to WP:PSPTBD. Daniel Quinlan 21:45, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
National Census of Poland 2002
- ?? comment Nationality, not Language nor Ethnicity
- my comment: language is one element of nationality and etnicity
According to 2002 national census, Poland had 38 million 230 thousand inhabitants.
The largest national minorities are (declared nationality): * Silesian 173,200
- German 152,900
- Belarusians 48,700
- Ukrainians 31,000
- Romowie 12,900
- Russians 6,100
- Łemkowie 5,900
- Lithuanians 5,800
- Kashubians 5,100
- Slovaks 2,000
- Jews 1,100
- Aremnians 1,100
- Czechs 800
- Tatars 500
- Karaims 50
- other 24 350
Declarations of the first language used at home (data only for the Silesian Voivodship:
- 48,200 German,
* 40,200 Silesian
Constitution of Poland guarantees the rights of the national and ethnic minorities, but there are no clear difinitions of the two.
For example the Silesians demand the national minority status, and the Polish government is denying this status, arguing that only those groups that have their own states are called nations (like Germans, Belarusians, Ukrainians) and the Silesians can only receive the ethnic minority status.
Another problem are the Kashubians - some 200,000 people in Pomerania. The official standing of the Kashubian-Pomeranian Union is that the Kashubians are a separate ethnic group, part of the Polish nation. Because in the last census there was only qustion for nationality, and no question for ethnicty, the authorities asked the Kashubians to declare the Polish nationality. Some of the activists asked to declare Kashubian nationality and 5100 of them have done so.
In my opinion the situation of the Silesians is similar, but not the same. Some of the Silesians feel that they are of Silesian ethnicity part of the Polish nation, others feel they are of Silesian ethnicity part of the German nation, while there's a significant group feeling that they are just a nation of Silesians.
The problem will be resolved in the next national census if there are two questions for nationality and ethnicity. But ceirtanly some of the Silesians nationals speaking Silesian langauge remain. cc 19:20, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
German-Silesian and Polish-Silesian dialects
In my view we have to distinguish the "german-silesian dialect" that nearly died off during expulsory after WWII (my grandparents spoke it until they died) and the "polish-silesian dialect" which seems to be a polish dialect and is spoken in Silesia today. As far as I read, this polish-silesian dialect is called language by silesian autonomy movements, while linguists say, it is just a polish dialect. I would recommend, that there should be just an entry "'silesian dialect'" in which it is said, that there are existing both polish and german dialects namend "silesian" which are not related, but have the same name by accident (perhaps with links to german-silesian dialect and polish-silesian dialect). Since I don't know about the polish-silesian dialect I don't know if it is a language or a dialect of polish. In case of the german-silesian dialect I know, that it is just a dialect of german and splitted into lower and upper silesian. upper silesian was much more influenced by polish words, but was a german dialect, too, and understandable for me (I told you that I had relatives from "german" Silesia). If in Poland the polish-silesian dialect is splitted into upper and lower silesian, I don't know. Obviously today in the polish dialect (or language?) is no distinction. Perhaps someone from Poland can tell us that. 82.82.117.221 20:51, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- We have that now. Silesian is about the Slavic (nearest to Polish) dialect/language and Lower Silesian is about the Germanic (nearest to German) dialect/language. We can rename them later. Right now, I think we should focus on the content of the pages. Daniel Quinlan 21:50, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
- Also, could you replace some of your long cut-and-pastes with links to external articles? They make the discussion page too long! Daniel Quinlan 21:50, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
Revised article
I revised the article about the Slavic dialect/language at Silesian, adding information from the old ethnolect page. Please comment on Talk:Silesian instead of here. Daniel Quinlan 22:25, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)
Lower Silesian language? It's a dialect.
Lower Silesian language (a "germanic dialect" spoken in former german Silesian and parts of Saxony) is not a language. It's just a german dialect. Therefore it should be called Lower Silesian, since ("polish") Silesian is not called Silesian language. Guillermo
Page was stolen
This page was stolen. The first 3 original edits by User:CC in Lower Silesian were made under the name of Silesian language
My intention was to write and article (from neutral point of view, mentioning various facts and theories) about the Silesian language spoken by the Silesian people living in the region of Silesia. A couple of editors who didn't like the content first tried to delete the page, and when this attempt failed, they have erased the content and replaced it with a stub about the Lower Silesian dialect of German. Next the page the page was moved to another location: Lower Silesian. All other Silesian pages and their Talk pages have been redirected to this new Lower Silesian page. Despite my desparate attempts to restore the original content under (Silesian language or Silesian ethnolect) all these pages were erased without any discussion redirected to this new German dialect page (and this happened several times).
After this manipulation was done it may look like that it was me who makes most of trouble. If you look at the history of the Lower Silesian the first impression is that a Polish nationalist is erasing imformation about a Germanic dialect, and there's no information that the first 3 edits were made in a very different page under another name (Silesian language).
As it seems to me that the Silesian language page and its history was stolen by the LowerSilesianGermans and the history of my edits have been viciously manipulated, I demand that:
- the history of my edits of the Silesian language return to the right place
- my name is not listed on the Lower Silesian edit history
The only way to to this is:
- Lower Silesian page contents should be stored in a safe place
- Silesian language page (redirect now) should be deleted temporarily
- Lower Silesian page should be moved to its original location: Silesian langauge
- new Silesian language page should be constructed by compiling the previous submissions from a couple of editors
- new Lower Silesian page should be constructed from scratch using the saved content
cc, 23:25, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)
- Um, no. Pages get moved around in Wikipedia. Don't take it personally. Please focus on the current articles, Silesian and Lower Silesian. Also, Steve is claiming that there are 4 Silesian dialects in total (two Slavic and two Germanic), but I have seen no other sources for that, so two pages seems correct to me. I'd appreciate your opinion on that. Daniel Quinlan 23:49, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)
Four Silesian ethnolects or tongues
In my opinion there are 4 ethnnolects or tongues that are called Silesian:
- Silesian language, a Western Slavonic language spoken by the Silesian people, in half way between Polish and Czech languages, with some German influences;
- Upper Silesian dialect of Polish language spoken by the Polish people living in Upper Silesia, in half way between Polish standard and the Silesian language;
- Lower Silesian dialect of Polish language belonging to the so called new mixed dialects spoken by the Polish people in Lower Silesia;
- Lower Silesian dialect of German language mostly extinct, but possibly spoken by the German minority in Polish Silesia
I don't know if there is/was also an Upper Silesian dialect of German.
My suggestion is:
Silesian language about the Silesian language
Lower Silesian (of German language) about Lower Silesian of German
Lower Silesian (of Polish language) about Lower Silesian of Polish
Upper Silesian (of Polish language) about Upper Silesian of Polish
Silesian - disambiguation page
Lower Silesian - disambiguation page
Upper Silesian - disambiguation page
cc, 23:50, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)
Please see the books on various Silesian languages: http://www.herder.uni-marburg.de/cgi-bin/acwww25/regsrch.pl?wert=jezyk+slaski+*&recnums=52073:61422:73836:82391:83931:83937:88237:88539:91801:92090:93702&index=4&db=bibl_p
Please note that the Marburg University has no doubt about the existence of the term Silesian language