Talk:Runic alphabet

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General discussion

What about the runes from the Lord of the Rings? The LOTR page links here . . . I think that it would make a nice addition. -Frazzydee 00:29, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

They probably ought to have their own separate article, as Tolkien made them up himself and they did not exist historically. Yggdræsil

Good idea. I lost my LOTR runes->english translation sheet- but whoever decides to do that, make sure you change the link on the lord of the rings page -Frazzydee 03:01, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"They probably ought to have their own separate article, as Tolkien made them up himself and they did not exist historically." is not entirely true. Cirth (Pronounced 'Kerth') looks very much like the ancient runes on this page.

Yes, but Tolkien's runes have completely different phonetic values. Their resemblance is just because there are only so many different symbols you can chisel into wood/stone. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 22:10, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

A few questions about the current content.

From the first sentence: "Celtic" doesn't belong here. In just about every sense, the Celtic peoples are not a subset of the Germanic peoples (a few confused Roman authors to the contrary). Also there is not a lot of evidence that Celtic people used runes. There are a few cases of English and Norwegian runes in Scotland (and maybe Ireland) and it's just concievable that Celtic people did these, but seems more plausible it was the English and Norwegians. That's about it. I think the Celtic connection with runes is very weak and not worth mentioning.

From the "Use of Runes" section: "It appears that runes may actually be much older. The rune for the sound æ, as in sAd, was not used in writing for at that time the Germanic Languages didn't have that sound. Yet, in every list of characters it always appeared. However, in Proto-West Germanic æ appears to have existed as a full-blown phoneme."

I am not sure about this. Are there some serious scholars pushing this view? It's entirely plausible that the runes are significantly older than 200AD, since many of them can't easily be dated, and the ones that are easiest to date are the ones in wood, which usually doesn't last that long. I have vague memories of a Roman author 1st century BC mentioning something that might have been runes, sorry, i can't remember any details now.

But this æ argument sounds a bit dubious to me. From your text, it looks like you are saying æ is in (constructed) proto-West-Germanic, but disappeared from West Germanic languages before 200AD. Old English is certainly a West Germanic language, and the æ letter occurs in Old English at dates much later than 200BC. On the continent, West Germanic languages are not written (except possible runic fragments, see below) until about 800AD, so it seems to me to be difficult to say if they had æ or not around 200AD.

Early runic inscriptions on the continent are mostly very short and difficult to follow. If they don't use æ in actual words it may be because the inscription is so short that that letter doesn't happen to be used. It is also difficult to identify the languages for most of these. Some might be Saxon, Friesian, and other West Germanic languages, but they could also be just about anything else.

For runes, West Germanic is not the only game in town. The Scandinavians used runes, and some of their languages have æ still today, i guess they probably did in runic times? There were also the East Germanic languages, and for all we know other lost Germanic branches, and they may well have used runes also.

This brings alternative hypotheses: Runic script could have been invented by Scandinavians or English, or some other language speakers who had æ and then most of the continental Germans who copied these runes had æ in their alphabet but never used it. Or maybe if the runes are based on Greek script as a few scholars think, &aelig could represent a Greek letter that turned out to be not very useful for some Germanic languages. Or maybe the continental West Germanic languages still had æ in 200AD but lost it sometime between then and 800AD.

I'm at best an interested outsider when it comes to runes, so i don't really want to jump in and attack this stuff. Do we have an expert who can evaluate it and fix if needed?

I hate to say it, but there are a number of mistakes in this article. For a start, runes were used to write several non-Germanic languages, such as Hungarian. Remote parts of northern Norway continued using the runes until the 20th century (or so I have read). Btw, the English can't have invented the runes - the runes existed before the English did.

I don't know what you want to make of it, but some interesting side factoids:

runic inscriptions in other languages: Sven B.F. Jansson states there are about 80 known inscriptions in Sweden written in latin. (Jansson could be considered the principal 20th c. authority on Swedish runes, I guess). Sorry, I don't have any literature data in anything but Swedish for this. For reference, Sweden has about 2500 rune inscriptions catalogued, the majority in Old West Nordic (local language during the viking age)

I seem to remember reading not too long ago that one runic inscription written in a Semitic language had been found in Sweden.

In the early 17th century in Sweden, a half-hearted attempt was made to adopt (re-introduce) runes as the official way of writing. Johannes Bureus published a "Runic ABC", meant for use in schools in 1611.
In not uncommon use into the 19th century in Sweden were rune-staves, ie calendars using runes. Graffiti also shows that it still wasn't uncommon for people to use runes instead of latin letters, at least until the 16th century, regionally into the 18th.
the East Germanic language did use runes, at least early on - they are the Goths, and though only few finds have been made, there are, I believe, at least 3 items of (fairly certain) Gothic origin with Gothic rune characters, found in present day Romania and Ukraine and dated between 200-300 AD (time, place and in one case inscription all indicate Gothic context). The later Gothic writings use latin style alphabet (Codex Argentus is a prime example, I'm not sure of the exact type of alphabet used though) and a while later Goths as a body of people and the Gothic language cease to exist. I do not know enough to theorize on their use of ae though ;-)
would a list of literature for the various national collections of inscriptions be interesting? Anything else?

--OlofE

The Goths, by and large, used the Gothic alphabet, an descendant of the Greek alphabet. Hungarian runic is also entirely distinct from Germanic Runic; the similarities seem to be because of the similar mediums used for writing. --Prosfilaes 23:30, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This discussion applied to a very old version of the article, and is some formatting has been lost - the part above the bullets were not by me, and there's text inserted in the middle too - but anyway... The Gothic runes predate the Gothic alphabet and are distinct from it. There are only a dozen or so finds from it. I believe all of them are dated before the assumed invention of the gothic alphabet (c 370 AD iirc). See Gothic language, Ulfilas. // OlofE 00:51, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Moved here from article:

Was the first article actually written for Nupedia or copied from a reference work? Do we know who wrote the original version? --LMS i WROTE THE FIRST ARTICLE. User:Wathiik

I think Larry is complaining (as am I) that the reference numbers are unclear. Please use footnotes that reference directly into the bibilography of the article itself, and mark page numbers as such. I've given one example that I think is correct, but you'd know better how to match up the references. --LDC

A question that I did not find an answer for; "How were numbers written in runes?" Egil

I'm not aware of any such application of the runes. And in The Western Mysteries, David Hulse writes, "No record of a true number code for the runes has survived." (This book is basically about alphabets and their related numerical systems, and the esoteric interpretations of same. ISBN 1-56718-429-4 ) RL Barrett 16:07 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

Numbers are written by spelling them out using letters. No figures. The usual way of writing e.g. years, is to refer to some historic event in a measure of man-ages (~40 years). Several numbers are found written on the Rök Stone. Nixdorf 23:25, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For completeness: Late inscriptions (typically 18th century I believe) from Scandinavia occasionally use pentadic numbers - such numbers also appear on the Kensington stone. If I understand correctly, they are irrelevant for "classic" rune inscriptions (very few and no occurrence before 1300?). OlofE 00:11, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I might like to see the alphabet in here as a PNG or GIF image. I can't seem to get my browser to work right with the UTF-8 or Unicode or whatever it is; all I see is squares with four hexadecimal digits squeezed into them. I have similar issues with a lot of the Japanese, Chinese, and other non-Roman alphabets, but it would be a bit much to want words in general changed into images, I know. But I think when the article is about the alphabet itself, it mightn't be too much to ask. -- John Owens 08:03 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

I'd have to agree. What was the reason for the unicode in the first place? Wouldn't it have been easier to upload an image instead? RL Barrett 16:07 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

(I'm using Mozilla on Windows XP Home BTW) I followed the second external link [1] (http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/runes.html) and wound up at Lars Törnqvist’s Fonts (http://www.thesauruslex.com/typo/eng/) (it's a sub-frame so you'll have to select the Fonts option). I downloaded the Hnias font and it seems to work a treat. HTH HAND Phil 14:19, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)

᛫ᛁᛏ᛫ᚹᚩᚱᛣᛋ᛫ᚠᛁᚾᛖ᛫ᚠᚩᚠ᛫ᛗᛖ᛫ᛏᚩᚩ᛫ Crusadeonilliteracy 16:06, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Copyright violation discussion

Well, at least the pictures I uploaded was not copyviolated, since I made them myself. At not all the text either, I think. Den fjättrade ankan 21:32, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nor were my pictures violations, I drew them myself and none of them appear on the referenced page. I also wrote a lot of text on this page, which is not violations. Nixdorf 05:35, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Only some of the text is a copyvio; the template message doesn't really have a way to indicate that. Feel free to add your stuff back to a new article at Runic alphabet/Temp (you can get at old versions of the article with the history link). DopefishJustin (・∀・) 05:53, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

If only some of the text is a copyvio, I question the necessity of adding the whole article to the copyvio thing, which the boilerplate on the article page says means the article could very well be deleted. Why not, in this particular case, remove the offending text, give a warning to the person who did the copyvio, and keep the rest? -Branddobbe 06:21, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

The problem is then the copyrighted text stays in the article history. These alphabet copyvios (there are several of them) are very old and in many cases are actually the first revision of the article, so you can't just kick out the latest edit from the database. If you feel that just removing the offending text is the best course, you have no less authority than I do; this was done at Latin alphabet for example because the article has just tons of history. Another approach is being taken at Greek alphabet, where the previous article without the copyvio text has been placed on the temp page, with a copy-paste of the history on the talk page to give proper credit. I'm sorry to kind of "boilerplate and run" but I don't really have the time to personally fix these articles. I've already noted on Wikipedia:Copyright problems that they shouldn't be deleted for now. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 15:53, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

Removal of redirect from Rune

I am proposing soon to remove the explicit redirect from the topic rune since runes, in the true sense of the word as used, particularly in Norse Mythology, have only a passing relationship to the runic alphabet and it is my intention to fully deal with this topic at some very near point. I will however ensure that a link remains and resolve any links which need attention as a consequence.Sjc 19:23, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Script/Alphabet

What's the reason for separate articles Runic alphabet and Runic script? -- Pjacobi 00:34, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

they should be merged! Dbachmann 07:29, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I wrote Runic script , mostly because this page was prevented from edits (due to copy-violation) during that time. // Rogper 01:19, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alphabet map

Missing image
Latin-Etruscan_alphabet_table.png

Living at Strängnäs, Sweden, I am surrounded by runestoens, usually dated from 'around 1050' on the little sign next to them. Over the last 10 years I have photographed and tried to read rune stones in Sörmland, Västmanland and Uppland. I do not recall any stone that uses any of the futharks depicted in the article. What you see seems to be a mixture of newer Swedish/Norwegian runes and Medieaval runes. Examples: in a:s and n:s, the side strokes cross the staffs, the R:s are rounded, the t:s have a little roof on top. Why does nobody publish the rumes as they were actually used? Klaus Fuisting --217.208.201.168 13:28, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You certainly have a point in that. I suggest we make an "Alphabet table" of most commonly used glyphs (There is such ones, usually with multiple columns for each glyph style), and split the page into multiple pages: Old Fuþark, Anglo-Saxon Fuþorc, Gothic runes, Younger Fuþark, Danish Fuþ?rk, Swedish-Norwegian Fuþ?rk, Norwegian Mixed Fuþ?rk, Middle Age Runes, Hälsinge Runes, Scandinavian Pointed Runic Alphabet. Lets put them in Category:Runes. // Rogper 14:40, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Of course we should have a Unicode table and I think something similar to the table on the right (showing the Etruscian alphabet in the example) would be desired, too. // Rogper 10:11, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

HTML / HTML 4.0 characters

Dear Rogper, I can see, that "?"'s are used in the links above. What characters should be there? Hope that you will find appropriate charactes at [2] (http://www.alanwood.net/demos/ent4_frame.html).
To my knowledge it is more suitable (for support in the search function) to use &#decimal_value; or &#hexadecimal_value; then &#characterstyle; where "style" is one of the following: acute (Acute accent, also accent aigu (?)), caron, cedil (cedilla), circ (circumflex), grave (Grave accent), lig (diphthong (ligature), diphthong, ligature), ring (Ring (diacritic), tilde, slash, uml (umlaut, diaeresis), etc.
I do not know if there is another way to represent:
- ā ē ī ō ū Macron.
- double acute accent as in ő
Example: ã (small a, tilde) acn be refered as ã == ã or ã == ã or ã == ã
Some weeks ago I started to look at technical aspects regarding those special characters at en.wikipedia in UTF-8 and other Wikipedias in ISO 8859-1. See also Wikipedia:Invalid article names. I think that the best would be to use piped links as [[Norwegian Mixed Futhark|Norwegian Mixed Fuþąrk]] == Norwegian Mixed Fuþąrk.
See also: Category:Diacritics, Category:Uncommon Latin letters, de:Akzent (Schrift), Breve, Dot (diacritic), Hacek, Ogonek ... Regards Gangleri | Th (https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php?title=User_talk:Gangleri&action=history) | T 05:37, 2004 Nov 19 (UTC)
P.S. Have to take a look also at vovels in Hebrew.

I'm not so very good at HTML characters and had problems obtaining that "cedilla" on the a-character. Thanks for providing me with info. :-) // Rogper 10:11, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

lot of thinks to do

I could not see many of the characters displayed at the articles refered above. I think that some guidence (a Unicode "how to ..." (sub-)section in those articles) about what fonts to install, alternatives about where you can get them, what browser are supporting those chracters could be added. Articles could be linked to other languages, missing could be translated. The look and feel from many of these articles is quite different. Some efforts could be done here as well.
Hope to be able to identify persons working on this. Regards Gangleri | Th (https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php?title=User_talk:Gangleri&action=history) | T 05:37, 2004 Nov 19 (UTC)

In fact, I have problems viewing the glyphs, too. It doesn't show anything on my computer besides rectangular squares. Do you have Runic glyphs? // Rogper 10:11, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Unicode

Halló! Does anybody know about http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U16A0.pdf and support in Wikipedia? Regards Gangleri | Th (https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php?title=User_talk:Gangleri&action=history) | T 02:56, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
I have created at test: (the actual test version where some links do not show up properly) test:User:Gangleri/tests/Unicode ISO 8859-1/Runes/á›«á›á›á›«áš¹áš©áš±á›£á›‹á›«áš á›áš¾á›–á›«áš áš©áš á›«á›—á›–á›«á›áš©áš©á›« with runes in the article name and test:User:Gangleri/tests/Unicode ISO 8859-1/Runes. Unfortunately I can not see the characters neither with MS IE, nor with Mozilla Firefox nor mit Navigator. Would be happy to know what fonts I need to install or what I need to do. Regards Gangleri | Th (https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php?title=User_talk:Gangleri&action=history) | T 03:22, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)

Displays fine for me, but isn't test.wikipedia on UTF-8? Then no problem is expected. You can also use the better looking link:

test:User:Gangleri/tests/Unicode ISO 8859-1/Runes/᛫ᛁᛏ᛫ᚹᚩᚱᛣᛋ᛫ᚠᛁᚾᛖ᛫ᚠᚩᚠ᛫ᛗᛖ᛫ᛏᚩᚩ᛫

For fonts always start seeking at Alan's: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html

Pjacobi 10:09, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Pjacobi for the answer and the link. What browser are you using? At [3] (http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html) I found [4] (http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fontsbyrange.html#u16a0) and [5] (http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/runic.html) and a reference to ALPHABETUM. Is this the only Unicode runic font or is there one available as public domain too? Regards Gangleri | Th (https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php?title=User_talk:Gangleri&action=history) | T 18:06, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)

I'm using Mozilla 1.7 which does a fine job in automatically selecting the right font for a each character. A good starting point for a wide range of Unicode support is Code 2000, but it's shareware. Quite a few free choices exist for Runic, but I've found that the current version of Caslon actually didn't contain Runic, against its documentation. I have Junicode and Chrysanthi installed, download links for all fonts are on Alan's main font page. Or go directly to

Pjacobi 19:52, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Pjacobi! I realized that UTF-8 is just a "different" / "another" Unicode standard compared to ISO 8859-1. I made a lot of tests. You can see them at User:Gangleri/tests/Unicode ISO 8859-1/Runes.
Thinks what "we" should do:
- some documentation / recomendation about what brwoser to use, what fonts to install;
- some investigations about keyboards;
- include "runic" sections at articles displaying runic stones, pictures etc; maybe after the runic text a transliteration would be suitable;
- ...
- think about a template (with shortcuts to the items listed above) to be inserted at ...
- bring people interested about this topics together, identify some experts [6] (http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~nordinst/mitarbeiter.html), at [7] (http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~nordinst/) ([8] (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=%22institut+f%C3%BCr+nordistik%22+m%C3%BCnchen)) ...
What do you think about this? Regards Gangleri | Th (https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php?title=User_talk:Gangleri&action=history) | T 13:01, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC)

Sorry to dampen your enthusiasm, but I have no special interest in Runic. I'm on this page by involvement in Unicode and I18n issues and some amateur interest in Writing systems. So I ended up with some 200 fonts installed on my poor W2K computer. Of course, if you have any questuion I might be able to answer, don't hesitate asking me. -- Pjacobi 19:04, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I do think you should include your list of Unicode runic characters in the Unicode section of this article.dab (T) 10:33, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Merge

Runic script ~~should be~~has been made into a redirect to this page.dab (T) 10:33, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Same with Elder_futhark_script. Also created Category:Runes. dab (T) 15:18, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Split

The Older Futhark section approaches full article length and may be exported to a separate article (with only the description of the alphabet remaining here) dab (ᛏ) 09:32, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I did that, with the purpose to have more room to discuss individual inscriptions there. dab (ᛏ) 09:51, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Elder

sigh. it seems 'Elder Futhark' is much more common than 'Older' or 'Old Futhark'. Anynone who wants to clean up the article for consistency is welcome to it. dab (ᛏ) 14:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

fac

I feel the article is reasonably cleaned up now, and I'd like to hear criticism from WP:FAC. dab (ᛏ) 16:02, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

it failed, mainly because of rendering problems of the unicode runic codepage. dab (ᛏ) 11:29, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Ogham

I agree - Ogham does not belong in this category.

Cbdorsett 18:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Etruscan

What about the recent runic discoveries in Italy? Etrusc writings ar at lest 3 to 4 hundred years older than any of the mentioned in this article. Etrusc runes are not new, they are derivates from much older times, mostly agglutinative languages of the past. Beppo on the new theories. [[[User:65.45.172.48]]]

Such information would belong on Old_Italic_alphabet (which needs updating badly) dab (ᛏ) 20:22, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There are no "Etruscan runes"; it's not appropriate to use that word to describe Etruscan.

Meaning of runes

A friend of mine suggested this page, http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/meanings.html, with lengthier descriptions of what the runes mean. I am not sure if this is authentic or new age, but it may be useful to incorporate that information. Radiant _* 11:29, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

see Talk:Elder Futhark. dab (ᛏ)

Images of runes

Someone may want to check the Japanese version of this article where they seem to have found images of all of the runes stamped onto some sort of little metal planchets... We might want to consider using them. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:46, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like a modern invention. I have never heard of runes being used on metal plates before. They used to be carved mostly on wood and bone. The fact that most remaining runes are found on stone is because it is a more permanent material.--Wiglaf 19:50, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I imagine they are modern reproductions of some sort, but I don't see how that's relevant. They have the distinct advantage of being images that are viewable to anyone with a web browser without having to figure out Unicode. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:53, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

They look very good, but I think it is difficult to see the runes on some of them.--Wiglaf 22:01, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I do not think they look good at all. They look like an archaeologist just found them. No need to pseudo-age our illustrations... If you want difficult-to-read runes, there is always Image:Einangsteinen_inscription.jpg :o) I do think we should have images of individual runes (maybe to implement a wiki-rune syntax, similar to wiki-hieroglyphs), but they should be plain black-on-white pngs. In fact, someone could just crop the individual letters on Image:Runes_futhark_old.png (I was going to do that sometime. Especially now my linux box broke down, and I can't see my own Unicode runes anymore :o\ )dab (ᛏ) 05:53, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Danes have done such images at the Danish Wikipedia: [9] (http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runealfabet) :)--Wiglaf 18:30, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anyone speak Danish and want to figure out how to get EN some images like that? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:05, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Sure, it'll be fixed in an hour or so.--Wiglaf 18:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here you are : User:Wiglaf/runes, but the jera rune looks strange.--Wiglaf 20:11, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The West Germanic Hypothesis

The "West Germanic hypothesis" assumes an introduction by West Germanic tribes. This hypothesis is based on the earliest inscriptions of ca. 200, found in bogs and graves around Jutland, which exhibit West Germanic name forms, e. g. wagnija, niþijo, and harija, possibly names of tribes located in the Rhineland.

Could someone provide references for this one? My work of reference says that these forms are Proto-Norse. Should it be rewritten or deleted?--Wiglaf 18:02, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's from Looijenga [10] (http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/). Don't know if it's true, but that's what she says. dab (ᛏ) 07:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I guess this is a typical case of perspective. Scholars studying Scandinavian rune inscriptions call it North Germanic, whereas Looijenga who study West Germanic rune inscriptions call it West Germanic. I don't know what to make of it, since we're talking of a time close to the Proto-Germanic stage.--Wiglaf 07:08, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

it's on page 52f.; she doesn't discuss in detail what is supposed to be West Germanic in these names, but she cites her sources. Maybe we can just say "Looijenga:52f." next to that part and leave it at that (unless you want to dig into her references...) dab (ᛏ) 07:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to cast doubt on Looijenga, but I am a bit suspicious of a theory which asserts that the forms are West Germanic when it is apparently contested, and then connects the forms to unknown and unattested West Germanic tribes as far away as the Rhineland.--Wiglaf 07:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can't read her files, my pdf reader freezes. I'll leave it for a while.--Wiglaf 07:36, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

inspiration to carve /strike runes and form alphabets

Runes are found in the northern hemisphere of the planet because a mucousal oracle bead is concealed [not congealed] and well-protected underneath a roadside limestone chapel in the state of Pennsylvania. The mucousal oracle bead holds a tiny voice strip struck within, and the sight of the voice strip has inspired manual applications of its appearance upon such materials as bark, stone, and clay. Directly from the voice strip itself we can postulate that cuneiforms were the first manual attempt to bring the bead contents to light; and that the runes [rheum, rue, room, roam, run] have resulted from highly opinionated attempts to countermand the effects of the oracle-maker's [o-m] creation. Analogous artifacts include the oracle bones of China, with some acknowledgment of the similar-ity of bone to mucous as a primary physiological secretion. It is a colloquialism to say that someone's nose is "running" or "runny" when the brain mass is discharging mucous during the grief process. >beadtot

Runes in Portugal

there is also a rune tradition in Póvoa de Varzim, Portugal due to Viking explorers and settlers. Althought the tradition of the use of Runes are now declining (due to education, people dont need to use runes no more and decline of fishing activity), after (I believe) 1000 yrs of use.-Pedro 20:28, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The name "rune" is sometimes applied to signs that aren't technically runes. Could you provide an image of Portuguese runes? It would be very interesting :).--Wiglaf 21:22, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

- I'll try to photograph some examples, though it wasnt used in stones, but rather painted or craved in wood (these can be seen in the First Church - but I'm not in the mood to go to the church :S). I'll try to photograph family inscriptions in the beach (maybe some families still use it, even in here it is declining) and symbols in sidewalks. Some of the symbols in here, I already knew them. I've added some info about that in the article Póvoa de Varzim, in the culture section. People used the runes because they didnt know how to write so when they got in touch with the people from Northern Europe in the 9th century they started using it (many of those people are descendants). BTW they didnt read the runes, they were used as symbols for remembering something or as a family symbol/signature, it wasnt an alphabet.--Pedro 22:34, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I found this on the net, some drawings were added later like the star of david (because each family must have their own signature): [11] (http://www.imultimedia.pt/rimus/pvarzim/museu1/images/foto5.jpg) -Pedro 22:47, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some of the signs do indeed look like runes. However, these signs would not be called "runes" in Scandinavia. They would be called "bomärken". There is no specific term for this in English, but a "bomärke" was a signature that a family put on objects that belonged to it.--Wiglaf 07:18, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

- Yes, that was its main use, at least the one that has prevailed until today. So they didnt create the signatures, they just continue to use that tradition? how the symbols were passed to the children? they would all have the same signature? Or they had a divergent one? What's the tradition on Scandinavia on who rules the family and who's the hair of the family (this is related to the signature), because these two are distincting features of the city in relation to the rest of the country. How the vikings eat, in a table or in the ground? --Pedro 09:37, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here is a link to an encyclopedia [12] (http://runeberg.org/nfbc/0572.html), and as you can see the symbols are similar. Some of the signs were only used by an individual whereas others belonged to the farm and were used for generations. I am not sure whether the custom should be attributed to the Vikings. Perhaps, they were a common European tradition in medieval times. The Vikings normally ate at the table, like we do today.--Wiglaf 10:39, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

nopes. There is no similar tradition in the rest of Portugal and there wasnt in the past. And it is known that they went into the region in the 9th century. I dont know if you know but people from Northern Europe established during some time in the city, i believe 100 yrs. There are proofs of that, even typical desieses from Northern Europe exists, due to that. And a large number of blond people, today especially among the fisherman and the rural areas. I was asking you the rest to see if like the runes, the rest could be related, about the symbols "everyone" knows it is. BTW, what's the cultural relation of the Normands with the Vikings? Another people that was in the region often to stell. -Pedro 17:59, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Norman and Viking are often the same thing, but in English Norman usually means descendants of Vikings who had settled in northern France. I did not know about Scandinavian influence in Portugal. It is new to me.--Wiglaf 19:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

- thx. That's why some say Normads other vikings. Well, in Portugal only the roman heritage is acclaimed. Most backgrounds are ignored, such has the celts. The typical pullovers from the city: [13] (http://www.povoadevarzim.com.pt/icones/1.jpg) the example has also the name in Portuguese, but traditionally only had the runes. The pullovers were bought has white and clean ones, and people imidiately putted their rune and sea motives, as a sign it is theirs. I used to have one. Now these pullovers are very expensive. it was used for festivities and it stopped being massively used because of a tragedy in the sea in 1892. -Pedro 21:48, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Rune Mage Ormungandr Melchizedek

This paragraph is out of place. It is promoting the view of one individual about the "nature" of runes, with a slant towards magic. I think this violates the wiki policies about neutral point of view. This is the paragraph I deleted:

In 2002 the Rune Mage Ormungandr Melchizedek observed how the runes are pure geometry and that they all emerge from the primal pattern known as the Flower of Life. As geometry exists everywhere so do the runes. Runes therefore predate human awareness. This discovery rearranges the prevailing perspective that humans developed the runes as a form of writing. Runes are pure mathematics in form and as such are embedded in all forms biological through mineral and beyond.

New Age divination may have attached itself to the ancient system of writing - created by people - and there might by a neutral way of linking this discussion into the magical uses of runes, but I myself don't want to do the work. If you care enough about this info, put some backbone into it. Cbdorsett 16:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

surely that was just vandalism? dab (ᛏ) 07:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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