Talk:Recovered Territories
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I don't see a reason to delete this page.
Political-Historical reasoning from Silesia talk page
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Silesia as a part of Poland
I'm afraid you are misinformed about history of Silesia. Poland emerged as a state in years 950-1000, when the first Polish monarchs Mieszko I and Boleslaus I the Brave had united a couple of Polish tribes (Polanes, Mazovians, Pomeranians, Vistulans, Opolians and Silesians) into one political body. This fact was acknowledged by the Pope and by the Roman Emperor, 2 most important political authorities of this time, by the creation of Polish church province (Gniezno and Poznan in Greater Poland, Wroclaw in Silesia, Cracow in Little Poland, and Kolobrzeg in Pomerania)
Except for a short period of Bohemian rule in 1039-1050, the status of Silesia as part of Poland was not questioned for several centuries (until 14th century). In year 1138 Polish duke has created a 'federal' or 'feudal' Polish state consiting of several provinces (Silesia among them). Provinces of Poland were to be ruled by the descendants of his 4(5) sons, but one of the duke (the oldest one) were to hold Cracow and to be the overlord or high-duke of all Poland, responsible for foreign, military and other national affairs. This was the preparation for a royal coronation. Again this 'constitution' was confirmed by the Emperor and the Pope. In the following years the dukes quarreled who should be the grand duke, but the constitution of Poland was not questioned.
Silesia, one of the provinces of Poland, was ruled by the descendands of Wladyslaw II, the oldest son of Boleslaw III. Because the Silesian dukes were the oldest branch of the Piast dynasty, they considered themselves to be destined to be the overlords of all Poland. In 12-th-13th centuries Silesia became the strongest province of Poland (politically and economically) and this period is called the Monarchy of Silesian Henrys (Henry I, Henry II, Henry III, Henry IV). Preparations for the royal coronation were broken by the Tartar invasion in 1241, and Henry IV almost achieved Polish throne before his death in 1290. Royal City of Cracow was inherited by Przemysl II of Poznan and he succeded to achieve Polish royal crown in 1295, there is no doubt that this royal coronation was prepared politically by the Silesian dukes, who considered themselvs dukes of Poland.
After King Przemysl II death in 1296, the royal ambitions were inherited by his nephews, Ladislaus II the Short of Cuiavia and Henry II of Glogow (in Silesia), but also by the Venceslas II of Bohemia, who took control of Cracow, married Przemysl's daughter and was crowned King of Bohemia and Poland 1300. For the next 50 years or so there were 2 competing Polish kings in Prague and Cracow fighting each other and declaring his oponents decisions to be illegal. This dispute was resolved by a compromise. King of Cracow resigned his rights to most of Silesia, and the king of Prague resigned his rights to the 'Polish' title.
But still the Bohemian chancellery, Silesian cities, the chronicles authors in their documents had no doubt the the Silesian duchies and cities belong to the Kingdom of Poland (Regnum Poloniae). In 14th-15th centuries students from Silesia at the German universities were assigned to the Polish nation academic coporations.The Silesian dukes considered themselves the dukes of Poland, and they rules their duchies until they died out in 1675. They called themselves The Piasts from the dynasty legendary founder, and the Piast term itself was invented in Silesia in 16th century. Silesian eclessiatical province of Wroclaw belonged to the Polish archbishopric in Gniezno up to the 18th century, although there were serious attempts to transfer it to the archbishopric of Prague.
When time passed the real political belonging of Silesia to the Kingdom of Bohemia was prevailing over the legal belonging of Silesia to the Kingdom of Poland. Since there was a significant difference between the legal boundaries of Poland, and the real boundaries of territories controlled by the Polish kings, the jurists had developed a legal definition of the difference between two legal bodies.
- the Kingdom of Poland - means the territory of all the lands that belonged to the Polish kingdom, when it was first established.
- Crown of the Kingdom of Poland - means the territories that are actually controlled by the the Polish king.
According to this legal definitions Silesia and Pomerania belonged to the Kingdom of Poland, and not belonged to the Polish Crown. On the other hand Red Ruthenia belonged to the Crown, and did not belonged to the Kingdom. The medieval documents show that these terms were used frequently and had significant legal meaning. For example a couple of provincial dukes sweared their oaths to Polish the King, the Kingdom, and Crown of the Kingdom.
The legal status of Silesia was that the province belonged to the Kingdom of Poland, and at the same time it belonged to (was controlled by) the Crown of St. Venceslas (or Bohemian Crown). Poland was an electoral monarchy probably since 1177 and certailny after Polish-Lithuanian Union in 1386. All Polish royal pretenders between 1370 and 1772 could attain the Polish throne on the sole condition that he will sign a document guaranting nobility priviledges, integrity of Polish Kingdom and promise to do everything to get back the lost lands on his own cost.
The 16th century Polish historian Jan Dlugosz (Dlugosius, Longinus) author of the multi-volume Chronicles of the Polish Kingdom, comenting the end of the 13th-year war (1554-66) wrote that he is very happy that Gdansk Pomerania and Prussia had returned to Poland, but he would be even more happy if Poland could re-claim other lost lands: Silesia, lubusz land and Slupsk/Szczecin-Pomerania. His cronicles were the main source of historical and political thinking in Poland in 16th-18th century and this means that the legal rights of Poland to Silesia were never forgotten.
In the 18th century Poland became a weak country and these rights could not be executed. In the partitions of Poland (1172-1795) even the Polish state ceased to exists, but the Polish political nation and Polish Kingdom were not liquidated. The Kingdom was always considered to be a sacred thing - it continues to exist even if there no King. Existence of the Polish political nation was proved by its amibiton to return to the political map of Europe, the repeating Polish uprisings, and peaceful national activities.
These political Polish dreams came true when Poland regained its independence in 1918 and regained the lost territories in 1945.
From legal point of view, Silesia was part of Poland for all the time since the foundation of Poland in 1000, and it doesn't matter if the province was actually in hands the Polish monarchs or temporarily controlled by other political bodies. The Polish monarchs had invited many guests from other countries to settle in Poland to find a better life. They and their decendants were guaranteed significant political and economic freedoms and rights. But they and their decendants also had a political obligation - to be loyal to the Polish dukes and kings. Most of them were loyal. We are very sorry we had to expell from Poland those who were not loyal.
CC, 20:10, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Stabilisation of the Western Territories
Removed entire text to talk. Full of inaccuracies and extremely NPOV:
The Soviet installed Polish government of 1945/47 started referring to the Eastern German land east of the Oder-Neisse line, under Soviet occupation since 1945, as Poland's Western Territories, also as Regained Territories.
Since 1920/21 parts of Germany were 'given' to Poland, then known as Polish Corridor. Poland by 1922 war conquest also added parts of Ukraine in the east and had one third none- Polish inhabitants. Poland went on a rigorous State- and Polish Catholic-Church-supported campagne to rid the 'New Poland' of the native populations, which had now become minorities in their own homeland situated in the New Poland.
Primate Cardinal August Hlond, the highest authority in the Catholic church of Poland, formulated the how to 'rid Poland of minorities' policy with his letter of 1935 and his recorded exclamations.
In summer 1939 a number of (now ethnic) Germans including the Protestant pastors from the Polish Corridor area were collected and sent on a death march from town to town. This event is known as the Bromberg Bloody Sunday.
The long-time-in-planning Soviet take-over took place in and after 1945 and the Soviet Union and Soviet-installed government of Poland took all Eastern-Germany, east of the Oder-Neisse line, under military occupation. The Polish clergy, while some opposed the Soviet Union as well, did however aid the Soviet take-over by expelling the German priests and pastors along with the German native population of Eastern Germany (east of the Oder-Neisse line). Poland claims this part of Germany as Poland's Western Territories or as Regained Territories.
All Protestant churches were closed. Officially there were no Protestants, nore Germans in the Soviet-backed Poland of 1945.
In 1985 the Sczeczin bishop Jan Galecki praised the Catholic clergy of Poland for the roll they played in the establishment of Stabilisation of the Western Territories.
This roll of getting rid of minoritieswas defined by the highest ranking church official of Poland Primate Cardinal August Hlond and adhered to over many years. It was also formulated as "correct" by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, backer of the Polish government.
The Serbian rulers took the Soviet Union, Polish and Czech and Churchill example as their guide in their plan and execution of "how to effectively rid a country of minorities".
It greatly surprised the Serbs, that this same policy is now called 'Ethnic Cleansing".
Polish Primate Cardinal August Hlond, along with many others, was a perpetrator of Polish church and state-sanctioned policies of "how to rid Poland of minorities from lands conquered by Poland and Soviet Union". There are attempts now to legally bestowe sainthood on Hlond.
In my opinion this article need a major rewrite. It should clarify why Poland wanted to recover these territories, the historical background, the positions of Polish Government in Exile and the Polish Communist Government, the diffrences betwen the Allies, in various period of time, and the final reslosion of the conflict. cc, 05:58, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The aqcuisition of the Western Territories have nothing to do with the loss of the Eastern Territories, the only connection was they apeared during/after WWII -- CC, 06:00, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Polish claims over Kiev
(In matter of fact, Poles did claim sovereignity over Kiev during the Polish-Soviet war. By the treaty with the Petlura, Poland passed its rights to Ukraine.)
I moved the abovementioned statement to the discussion. As long as the author doesn't post any proof, it should stay here.Halibutt 23:14, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anon edits
I did a few minor edits to this page for several reasons. First, it was rather badly written with several sentences that made little or no sense. Second, the page reads like an excerpt from the handbook of a Polish nationalist and little to do with historical facts but instead attempts to justify the shift of the German-Polish border after World War 2. Things like this only the wiki. Stop it already. As far as I am concerned this entire entry should be deleted because the very title alone (Recovered territories?) is not in any way a widely used or accepted term (in the English language) for referring to these areas.
- Although the article was (and perhaps still is) somewhat strange, deletion is out of the question. The term Ziemie Odzyskane is commonly used in Poland and as such should also be reported on wikipedia. As long as the article describes the propaganda agenda behind the term and all the situation in 1945 - it's ok.
- However, you simply decided to delete everything apart the definition itself, which is IMO a bad idea. I'll move the text you deleted here, so that we could correct it and put it back. How about that? Halibutt 23:13, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
This ideology was taught in the schools, and was catered to in newspapers and books. All traces of Polish history in the West were carefully recovered, with complete disregard of Polish history in the East.
Even in Germany, one of the positive and widely appraised aspects of the ideology of the Recovered Territories was the reconstruction of historical, old city centers that were demolished in the war. The cities of Wroclaw and Gdansk with their medieval houses look much better now than they did before the war. This is according to some expelled Germans (vide Gunther Grass about the old city of Gdansk).
After 50 years of education, many Poles believe passionately in Poland's ancestral rights to the areas.
Arguments for the Polish ancestral rights
This position is defended by facts, such as the Holy Roman Empire's meeting at the tomb of Saint Adalbert in 1000, showing Silesia and Lubus were already part of Poland, Pomerania a Polish fief. This area of the country was made into a separate Polish province of the church, which included Silesia until 1850 and Lubus, Pomerania until the Reformation. Also the fact that Poland bordered the Holy Roman Empire was possible only because the Slavic people that lived between the Oder and Elbe rivers were already the subject of conquest from the side of Saxonian vassals of the Holy Roman Empire. During the partial division of Poland in this period (1138-1320), Poland lost Lubus and sovereignty over the western part of Pomerania, which became a separate state called Silesia. Silesia was ruled by princes from the Polish dynasty of Piast until 1675, and eventually, in 1343, recognized the sovereignty of the rulers of Bohemia.
Counter-Arguments
Many who are not Polish and some who doubt the validity of these claims contend that the concepts of the Poland of a thousand years ago and the Poland of modern times bear very little relation to each other. This concept is comparable to the claim of some modern English nationalists who derive their Englishness from the inheritance of Alfred the Great.
Slavic brothers
"The brothers Czech and Lech are the semi-legendary Slav brothers, from which the Czechs and Lechiten or Poles derived their nations."
I removed the above sentence for several reasons:
- these "brothers" are not even semi-legendary, but fully legendary; apart from that, the brother Rus is omitted;
- more importantly, the sentence does not have any apparent relation to what was said above and below.
--Thorsten1 12:57, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I believe you spotted an authentic, genuine User:H.J. artefact. Space Cadet 13:18, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)