Talk:Qin Dynasty

Should we break it into State of Qin and Qin Dynasty? We all know that there are only 2 (or 3) emperors of Qin Dynasty, including the pro-dynasty ruler of Qin doesn't make sense. wshun 21:47, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Kings in dynasty list

Why are rulers before Shi Huang Di listed in the table? --Jiang

The reason had already been explained in the note of the table. (秦昭襄王 qin2 zhao1 xiang1 wang2) had already been ruling Qin for 51 years when Qin anniliated Zhou Dynasty; however the other six warring states were still independent regimes. (Traditional Chinese) Historiographers thus used the next year (the 52nd year of Qin Zhao Shang Wang) as the official continuation from Zhou Dynasty. Qin Shi Huang Di was the first Chinese sovereign proclaimed himself "Emperor".

First the table was an abridged copy from a list of Chinese kings in a dated Chinese dictionary (to be specific, it's a Cidan). As with most old sources, the traditional Chinese view of history prevails, i.e. obsession with uniterrupted succession of Chinese rulers. Tradtional Chinese histriography recognized rulers of the state since the end of Zhou Dynasty as the de facto rulers of the known Chinese territory even though there was not a single ruler who actually imposed administrative authoirty over all known Chinese territories. The rulers of Qin were powerful enough to dominate but not rule the known Chinese world despite it had to wait until the completion of unificaton in 221 BC. Just as an example, if the state of Chu, but not Qin, had unified China, we would have known the Chu Dynasty and been reading kings of Chu in the dynasty list. So I am supporting removal of Qin kings from the list for clarity.

For this period of history of China:

1. up to 256 BC: Warring States (including the state of Qin) and a recognized king of the Zhou Dynasty
2. 256 BC to 221 BC: Warring States (including Qin)
3. since 221 BC: Qin Shihuangdi unified China, beginning of Qin Dynasty

kt² 23:01, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Maybe we better put the explanation outside the table. If I fail to notice it, many people do. wshun 23:05, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The inclusion of the kings as the dynastic ruler is actually contrary to official Taiwanese middle school textbooks (and probably HK and Mainlander too). Hence the source of the widespread confusion nowadays. --Menchi 00:04, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The reason the exclusion of the kings as dynastic rulers in official textbook guidelines is to get rid of the traditional standpoints. As I have stated it above, the list of kings was from a dated Cidan, so to avoid copyright issues. IMO it's better to take the pre-Qin Shihuangdi rulers out of the list beacuse no dynasty existed between 256 BC to 221 BC. kt² 01:18, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Agreed, the kings should be moved to State of Qin (it's already there, I think). Keep the Note on traditional historiographer's view, however. It's informative, but maybe extend it a bit to clarify more. So basically there are two definitions of "dynasty" in China? The traditional view states that once the old dynasty is destroyed by B, B becomes the dynasty. The new view says that B must unify all China (and proclaim oneself emperor) to be a dynasty? Maybe some of such information is suitable on Dynasty, since it may not be Qin-specific. --Menchi 03:11, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No, Qin Dynasty ALWAYS started in 221 BC but traditional historiography takes reigns of Qin rulers of the state to date years between 256 BC to 221 BC. kt² 03:46, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But the state began at least in 778 BC with Duke Xiang. Do they not recognize that? --Menchi 03:56, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Okay, let me clarify it a bit. Compare these 2 lists.

Course of history:

1. up to 256 BC: Warring States (including the state of Qin) and a recognized king of the Zhou Dynasty
2. 256 BC to 221 BC: Warring States (including Qin)
3. since 221 BC: Qin Shihuangdi unified China, beginning of Qin Dynasty

Traditional historical dating:

1. up to 256 BC: rulers of Zhou Dynasty
2. 256 BC to 221 BC: rulers of the Qin state
3. since 221 BC: rulers of Qin Dynasty

kt² 04:12, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

1. So they mean indepedent (not subordinate) to Zhou?
2. But the status of Qin as a state (independent or not, pre-256 or post-) is not blurry, right?

--Menchi 04:16, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This involved the concept of mandate of heaven. Traditional historiographers viewed rulers of Zhou Dynasty as the "sons of heaven", despite gradual dwindling of their authorities. So the state of Qin is always in the status of Zhuhou until 221 BC when Qin Shihuangdi became son of heaven. kt² 04:37, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Cantonese origin of the word "China"

I don't believe the first part of this statement in the article is correct, nor is it substantiated by anything:

Qin is sometimes spelt as Chin, the Cantonese phonic, due to the fact that cantonese people had earlier contact with the western world compared to Mandarin people. This is also a possible origin of the word "China." (See China in world languages).

I do agree that Qin is probably the origin of the word for China, but the first sentence seems to be pulled out of thin air (a Google search yields nothing). The Cantonese pronunciation of Qin is actually not too different from the Mandarin pronunciation. Using IPA notation, the pronunciation is tsʰiːn in Cantonese and tɕʰin in Mandarin, both of which sound like "chin" to an English speaker's ears since English lacks alveolar affricates. In fact, before Hanyu Pinyin was invented, Qin was romanized as Ch'in in Wade-Giles, a Mandarin romanization scheme.

In addition, from the China in world languages article, it says:

Marco Polo described China specifically as Chin, which is the word used in Persian, the main lingua franca on his route.

First of all, this sentence does not mention anything about Cantonese, and second of all, at the time Marco Polo visited China, there was no Cantonese or Mandarin as we now know it, but rather a mix of languages that evolved from Middle Chinese that would eventually evolve into the modern dialects.

So, I am replacing this statement with the following:

Qin, which has a pronunciation similar to the English word "chin," is a possible origin of the word "China" (see China in world languages).

--Umofomia 09:49, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)