Talk:Peter Carroll

We have established a fund for the victims of our family clan of O'Carroll, Carroll, at http://www.geocities.com/marbme12/thecarrollfoundation.html, or through our family clan site of the O'Carroll's at http://www.clancian-carroll.com, under side bar News Flash. We express our deepest regret and sympathy for the surviving family members.

Mary Bower of O'Carroll Family

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It is past my bedtime. This entry in the Talk needs it own page. I came by it only because it is linked to Casualties of the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks: City of New York.

Thanks, this is so depressing.

Paul, in Saudi

Note: The comments above refer to an old version of this article which discussed a firefighter who died in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. His article has been moved to Wikimemorial and this page made into a redirect. Subsequently, the page was edited to be an article about a different man by the same name. Hence the confusion in the comment below. Rossami

First, what does the above comment have to do with the author about whom this entry was written? Second, Ray Sherwin and a number of people were far more infulential in the beginning of chaos magic -- Carroll invented neither the term "chaos magic", nor the approach it represents, nor the IOT. He simply published the most popular book about it. I'm too lazy to correct it or flesh it out, so I hope some other chaote happens across this and feels inclined to make the changes. --M.C. ArZeCh 06:36, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

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Original saying? Doubtful..

Nobody who wants political power should have it.

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Notes on the rewrite

He coined the phrase "chaos magic" as a (sort of) defined magical current.

Pulled this sentence based on M.C. ArZeCh's comment above. If he can reliably be credited with the invention of this term, please souce it and add the comment back. Rossami

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He allegedly was once shipwrecked in an hurricane and was upon landing along the eastern coast of India, revered as a god by indigenous locals, whom, he commented, had never seen a white man until his arrival.

Pulled this paragraph as unverified and/or non-encyclopedic. I find it completely non-credible that someone could be "revered as a god by indigenous locals" in the 20th century. After this was pulled once, Faedra left a note on my Talk page that this was "told in person to the contributor during a long period of association and frienship." Tall tales told by the subject of an article are still not encyclopedic unless you intend to illustrate that the subject is a teller of tall tales. Only add this anecdote back to the article if the facts can be independently sourced. Rossami

There have been such cases in the 20th century (e.g. the aeroplane cults). Now whether or not it happened to him is something that would need to be verified and sourced. --BenM 18:19, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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Peter has lived in Yorkshire and Somerset where he now maintains a thriving aromatics company, situated in (Bristol), Avon County.

Trivia that you will not find in well-written encyclopedia articles about other historical figures. Rossami

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1. "Nobody who wants political power should have it." - not original to Peter Carroll. This saying was used as early as Thomas Paine of the American Revolution (and was probably old then).
2. "Einstein, who was a dyed in the wool determinist, cried aghast at the new physics, 'god does not play dice', but I'm afraid she does Albert, and moreover she tempts us to force the hand of chance" (PJ Carroll, Views on a Chaotic Universe) - mischaracterizes Einstein's understanding of and reaction to quantum mechanics.
3. "Early on I realized that you can only make money out of magic by setting up a cult or running a correspondence course, and this did not appeal to me." New World Disorder Interview [1] (http://www.newworlddisorder.ca/issueone/interviews/carrollinterview.html)

Quotes pulled out. In addition to my concerns above, quotes generally belong in Wikiquote. Rossami

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In Psyber Magic, Carroll announced his desire to step down from the "roles of magus and pontiff of chaos" with the closing statement: "the author chooses to maintain an antique and idiosyncratic code of chivalry, honour, and heroism in an era largely devoid of such things...and values uniqueness in an era of mass production" (ch. 59) He has now departed from magic as a field of study and discusses the hypothesis of three-dimensional time.

This paragraph smacks of vanity but I couldn't quite figure out how to fix it. Thoughts? Rossami

I agree, it smacks of vanity, but I'm not sure how to fix it and my temptation is to cut the whole thing. Given that the last sentence is a lie (see below) and should be removed, I'm not sure if the first stands alone. I don't really see how this "closing statement" backs up the claim that he desires "to step down from the 'roles of magus and pontiff of chaos.'" It just sounds like the tooting of horns and waving of flags. Additionally, while Carroll founded one chaos magick group (the IOT), two others with larger membership (the Z(cluster) and the AutonomatriX) were founded in the early 90s and often were quite vocal on their e-lists that Carroll was viewed as no such thing. He was only elevated within his own surroundings in the IOT and by those who liked his books (there were also a great many chaos magicians who criticized his books).

"He has now departed from magic as a field of study and discusses the hypothesis of three-dimensional time." is patently false. Peter Carroll just finished teaching (April 2005) a well advertised class in chaos magick at the Maybe Logic Academy (http://www.maybelogic.org/) and is in the middle of teaching another one.

I know it's the only paragraph of substance in this stub, but it is neither accurate nor (IMHO) encyclopedic. Xaven

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