Talk:Pantheism

Contents

1 Archives 2 Cosmotheism 3 216.45.221.155/Paul Vogel 4 Transhumanism? 5 216.45.192.70 6 Honing the page 7 announcing policy proposal 8 "Classical" and "Naturalistic" varieties of pantheism 9 Holism

Archives

• Talk:Pantheism/Archive 1 (up to January 2004)
• Talk:Pantheism/Archive 2 (January-April 2004)
• Talk:Pantheism/Critique
• /Archive 3
• /Pandeism

Cosmotheism

I've just added a couple of sentences on cosmotheism (from an e-mail sent to me by Prof. Jan Assman, which I've reproduced on Talk:Cosmotheism (classical)). I'm now going to make Cosmotheism (classical) into a redirect to this page (as per discusion on its Talk page). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let Prof. Jan Assman post for himself, or we do not believe that this revert was not done for only your own biased and politically-motivated POV. --216.45.221.155

I removed the copy of the long extract from the article that you posted. It is confusing to have this on the Talk page. The best thing to do if you want to refer people to something in the history is just to provide a link to the article history. --BM 18:05, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ok, here is a link from a thesis paper, http://www.academy.umd.edu/ila/Publications/Proceedings/2003/lrowland.pdf that shows that either the author of this paper is either lying or is just mistaken, and/or that Prof. Jan Assman has only quite falsely and deliberately "changed the actual meaning" of the ancient and the archaic term "cosmotheism" to only POV suit himself! Also added DNA GOD's suggestion to expand upon how Cosmotheists view GOD/Cosmos-ANON.

You appear not have read the piece very carefully yourself. Aside from the fact that it's a (not terribly impressively written) reference to Assman with no direct quotation, it confirms the fact that the term was coined by Lamoignon de Malesherbes — the claim that you tried to remove from the article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:24, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

216.45.221.155/Paul Vogel

It's been determined that 216.45.221.155 (talk · contributions) is in fact Paul Vogel. I've banned 216.45.221.155 for an initial period of 24 hours until I can ascertain the proper procedure with an IP-address sockpuppet of a banned User. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:12, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Blocked for a month. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Transhumanism?

I've just reverted a change made by SS with regard to Pierce's racist version of pantheism, 'cosmotheism', in which he changed 'an evolutionary interpretation of God' to 'a Transhumanist interpretation of God'. No explanation, nor any citation or source, was given. It can be replaced when that's done (if other editors agree, of course). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[1] (http://www.prometheism.net/) Next time ask for a citation before reverting. As for the rest of the above, kindly take your attitude elsewhere. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 15:33, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's odd. I've just come from Golliwogg, where you removed a reference to its use as a racist epithet being 'extremely offensive', before asking for justificatory citations (forsooth!) on the Talk page — something I've seen you do many, many times before. Another example of do as I say, not as I do. As for your final remark, I fail to see what you're talking about. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:39, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Odder still; I've just looked at the citation that you provided, and the words 'transhumanism' and 'transhumanist' appear nowhere on the page. I'll remove the claim again until a genuine citation is supplied. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Christ, do a moments research. Look at the left hand side of the page, about 1/2 way down. Click the blue link titled "transhumanism". If thats too taxing try [2] (http://www.transtopia.org/transhumanism.html). I would have just given you that, but I wanted to make sure you knew they were all the same webring. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 15:48, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Giving a citation doesn't mean doing the equivalent of throwing a book at someone and saying: look it up! In fact, though, the only relevant part of that page is this: “Church of Cosmotheism A list related to the Cosmotheism movement. Cosmotheists believe that our true human purpose is to know and to complete ourselves as conscious Individuals and also as a self-aware species and thereby to co-evolve with the cosmos towards total and universal awareness, and towards the ever higher perfection of consciousness and being.” There's no mention of Cosmotheists holding a transhumanist interpretation of god (indeed, there's no mention of god at all), though there is a mention of evolution — which is what you're trying to replace in this article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:14, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[3] (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Cosmotheism+Transhumanism&num=100&hl=en&c2coff=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off) As I said, a moments research would be nice. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 16:38, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't ask for citations, because that's just lazy — we should look it up ourselves? Do you intend to press for a change to Wikipedia rules on that? Do you, indeed, intend to stick to it yourself instead of demanding citations in future?

In any case, a Googled (Transhumanism + Cosmotheism) list of Web sites doesn't count as a citation for the specific claim that you've made in the article. Your reluctance to give a genuine source for your claim strongly suggests that you don't in fact have one. Until you do, please don't replace the claim. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sam, the problem here is that these prometheism/conscious evolution websites are Dnagod's, and quite a few of those are coming up under the Google search you referred us to (along with Wikipedia mirror sites). He can't be used as a Wikipedia source, because he's not known, not reputable, not credible, and not a published source: these are just his personal websites. I see you've also added his sites back into Transhumanism. Rather than us just arguing with you, could you say why you feel so strongly that pantheism, cosmotheism, prometheism, and conscious evolution should be associated with transhumanism on Wikipedia? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:22, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

If you can provide a convincing case that the websites in that ring are less than authoratative regarding Cosmotheism, prometheism, etc..., I will cede this point. I've heard your argument regading the banned user, and find it unconvincing. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 17:33, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But what you find unconvincing isn't really the crucial point here. The onus of proof is on you, as you want to include a specific claim in the article. You've so far offered one substantial citation ([4] (http://www.transtopia.org/transhumanism.html)), which supported the article as it stands rather than your version. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sam, I'm not including pantheism, by the way, as a discredited idea. Regarding Dnagod, I don't know what else I can say. He is anonymous, and we don't use anonymous sources. He is not a published source. He self-publishes on websites that don't contain much information. He runs discussion groups around these websites, which don't attract many members. His domain names are registered to a box number, and the telephone number given on the forms goes to the room of a very old lady who lives in an old people's home, and who was somewhat bewildered when I telephoned her inquiring after neo-Nazis. All in all, Dnagod could be cited on Wikipedia:No original research as an example of the kind of source Wikipedia doesn't use: the intellectual opposite, if you like, of the Times of London. Do you find any of that persuasive? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:50, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

As I have said before, I am unconvinced that Dnagod produced those websites, and regardless of who made them they are clearly affiliated with National Vanguard, which is itself encyclopedic. I'm not claiming these organisations are citable sources on much else, but they are at least citable regarding themselves, arn't they? (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 18:36, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They'd be citable about themselves if they were worth writing about, but they're not, for all the reaons stated above. They're anonymous people making up neologisms and new religions that no one, or very few to judge by the discussion groups, seems to be a member of. I'm not aware of anything linking them to National Vanguard. Do you have evidence for that? As for the writing, Dnagod doesn't seem to write the material, as he had problems with his writing, and some of the material on the websites doesn't indicate that. Matt Nuenke presumably writes it, but again, trying to find out who he is leads to a dead end, and he doesn't seem to be a published author, except for one book review I found in a magazine; and enquiries by another editor showed this magazine will publish almost anything submitted to it. We can't use unpublished sources that we can't identify, regardless of their politics. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:45, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

[5] (http://www.cosmotheism.net/). Its not hard to see the link. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 21:31, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you mean the National Alliance ad, that doesn't mean there's a formal link. Or did you mean something else? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:41, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

No, I ment the ad, and I think your probably right about there not being a formal link, I can't find any mention of Transhumanism or cosmotheism at natvan's website. So this all seems to boil down to if the euvolution webring is usable as a citation, and if it is worthy to link to. Despite my year and 1/2 here, I can't think of where and how such decisions regarding citation worthiness are made. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 21:49, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The two main policies that talk about this issue are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Wikipedia:Verifiability may also say something, but it's been a while since I read it. NOR says that sources must be credible or reputable; it acknowledges that these words are hard to define, but it gives examples: good publications will tend to have fact-checkers and so on. As you said earlier, if we were writing about Dnagod's websites, then they'd be good-enough sources for that (that is, primary sources), though not good-enough sole sources. But that gets us into NPOV, which states that tiny-minority positions should not be given space. Dnagod's is definitely a tiny-minority position. If you look at the discussion groups, there's very little activity, and he's often asking for small amounts of money to keep the websites running. Matt Nuenke seems to be a somewhat more serious figure, and if we knew who he was, it's possible we could use him as a source, but it's unlikely that's his real name, and all I could find written by him under that name were book reviews. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:04, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Well its obviously an interesting subject to me, and while I tend to assume their doing better than you suggest due to the quality and coherance of their websites, I admit to not having looked into them more deeply. After giving it some thought, I don't think their worth focusing on here, but are applicable at transhumanism. Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 23:09, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

216.45.192.70

I've just blocked this address for a year, as it's Paul Vogel again. I've reported it on the Admin's noticeboard, which may lead to his block being restarted at one year. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Honing the page

The following two links

• The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition (http://www.answers.com/topic/pantheism) (second listing down)
• /Pandeism

contain info which should be integrated into this article.

Sam Spade 16:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

announcing policy proposal

This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

"Classical" and "Naturalistic" varieties of pantheism

Can anyone point me to some documentation of this distinction? I am unfamiliar with it. --goethean ॐ 16:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Classical" is probably ideosyncratic to the wiki, we came up w it as a term for pre-spinozian form of Pantheism. "Naturalistic pantheism" is in discription of the form of pantheism exposed by Spinoza, the Universal Pantheist Society (UPS) and World Pantheist Movement (WPM). These articles are less than perfect for a number of reasons, and were mainly created as a compromise due to fierce and extended debate between an atheist, a nazi, and myself ;) Sam Spade 23:05, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Holism

Have you read Holism? If not, please read it before deleting it. If you have read it, why would you delete it? Its clearly a related concept. I also added emergence, due to its similar relevence. Sam Spade 23:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I have read it. It's not particularly related, no (it has little to do with religion, and nothing to do with pantheism). Emergence is slightly more relevant, I suppose. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 00:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And yet it is the very basis of pantheism, is it not? That things be viewed as one whole, possessed of qualities unable to be understood as the sum of its parts alone? Sam Spade 00:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't think that it is the basis of pantheism. Pantheism has many bases, and was arrived at from many different directions by different people and cultures, but I'm not aware of any case of pantheism following from holism.

Having though more about the question of emergence (and read the Wikipedia article more thoroughly, which says nothing of obvious relevance to pantheism)), I'm less convinced that there's much of an interesting connection there either.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 07:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that the history of the term, or of organised pantheists can be traced to advocates of the term "holism". Much like political articles, I see no reason why such a chain of connections is necessary for their to be a relationship between two ideologies, similarly here I see no need for a historical heredity for this to be a related concept. Sam Spade 14:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is only the ontological variety of holism that is related to pantheism. They are both the result of ontological synthesis, of the urge to unify consciousness, to overcome various dualisms. In short, they are both somewhat mystical philosophies. That is, they are both rational reconstructions of transrational states. Pantheism overcomes the distinction between god and nature. Ontological holism is an attempt to overcome all absolute ontological distinctions by identifying some property common to all organized entities — wholeness. Additionally, adherents to one are generally sympathetic to the other. --goethean ॐ 15:35, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Quite right. All of this relates to monism, btw. Sam Spade 21:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)