Talk:Pantheism/Archive 1
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Naturyl building the original article
The most recent revisions of this page need to be copyedited -- I don't know enough on this subject to know if they are good or bad edits.
From Naturyl:
I'm new to Wikipedia and am not sure if this is the correct way to respond to your comments above. If not, please direct me to information on how to properly respond to "talk" pages such as this.
Regarding the subject matter, I wrote most of the article in question and can verify that although it has been edited a few times, the article remains relevant and on-point. As a member of the Universal Pantheist Society Board of Directors, I feel that I am qualified to make a determination as to the accuracy of the piece. Please keep in mind that although I am associated with a pantheist organization, I am mindful of NPOV. By and large, it is a fair and accurate summary, although it could probably be considerably expanded. If no one does this in the near future, I will probably take care of it myself.
Thanks,
Nat 04:57, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, what do you know. The 'near future' turned out to be today. :) I've updated the article, expanded it, and improved the general tone.
Nat 04:57, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
the nature of God
and I, as a "classical pantheist" have given the page a NPOV overhaul. There stills needs to be an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God. JackLynch 21:23, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hello,
I don't think that these recent edits (by JackLynch) have been particularly constructive. I am a member of the Board of Directors of the Universal Pantheist Society and based upon my considerable understanding of the subject matter, I feel that the article as I originally edited it was superior to the current revisions. A considerable amount of relevant, important material has been deleted from the article, and a corresponding amount of questionable material added. I also find the idea that an 'NPOV overhaul' was necessary to be rather curious. The article as I wrote it contained no slights toward classical or dualistic pantheism, nor did it try to present the 'modern' or naturalistic pantheism as in any sense superior. If I gave more attention to the naturalistic stance, it is only because that interpretation of pantheism is by far the most widely-accepted at present.
I will not revert the article, as I have no desire to be drawn into an 'edit war' or any similar acrimonious proceedings. As far as I am concerned, if Wikipedia is to have an inferior article on pantheism, so be it. I will, however, state for the record my feeling that Wikipedia will not likely attract significant attention from expert contributors until such time as there is some mechanism by which to ensure that authoritative work will not be replaced by revisions of inferior quality. Perhaps it would be useful to implement a system by which articles written by established authorities in a field might be given protection from editing, given that said authors can provide proof of their credentials to Wikipedia administration.
As a result of this situation, I will no longer be able to refer persons interested in learning about pantheism to Wikipedia. Furthermore, I may feel it necessary to advise potential contributors that until Wikipedia finds a way to remove the threat of 'edit wars' and similar bitterness stemming from situations in which a writer feels that the quality of an article has been compromised, it may not be worthwhile to make serious contributons to the project.
As a final note, it is important to understand that I mean no disrespect toward the user known as JackLynch, and I will admit that at least some of the material he added may be valuable. This is not a personal issue for me, it is strictly an issue of article quality. As part of my own efforts to enhance public understanding of this subject matter, I wanted to help Wikipedia have the best possible article on pantheism possible, and I simply feel that the recent revisions have not aided in the achievement of that goal. Nor do I feel, in light of this and the concerns it raises, that Wikipedia itself is particularly well-suited to that task at present.
Nat 09:22, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
If your really that worried about an edit war (whats the deal with that, thats the 2nd time somebody was afraid I would engage in warlike activities on here! no way, not gonna do it...) then you could always talk to me. There are a few ways to do that. You chose one, this talk page, which was good, but you seem to feel mightilly defeated right off the bat. I can't see why you would suddenly lose all faith in the wiki just because of one disturbing edit (a moderately informative edit, in my opinion ;). We totally disagree about what pantheism is. Thats really clear. You seem to be very focused on your church. While it is clear that your church is very important to you, I think it is a serious stretch (not accurate) to suggest "that interpretation of pantheism is by far the most widely-accepted at present". I was talking about the concept of pantheism, and what it means, and correcting some of the more glaring POV "errors" you made in your zeal. For example, you seem to be deeply confused about just who is and is not a pantheist. Take a look here pantheism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pantheism) and then think long and hard about just who might fall under that catagory. Hindu's do, amoung lots of others. Me included. Thats ALOT of believers in a personal God which you ignore when you mention pantheism. You definately seem to think that the naturalistic, "not so focused on a personal God" pantheism is the majority pantheism. I sternly disagree. JackLynch 02:27, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Oh good grief, Needle has found the Wiki. Be prepared to revert over and over again. This guy does searches for pages containing the terms 'pantheism' and 'cosmotheism' in order to preach his bizarre message, and he is as persistent as a bad rash. Have fun, wiki-people.
Needle?
Whats the deal? Why do you think we should revert this guy? Is he User:216.99.245.149, who placed links to the cosmotheism website? If so he sure didn't seem like a vandal to me, and I didn't really agree w that revert. Lets talk about things, and put the "Pan" back in pantheism ;) Jack 02:47, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Jack,
"Needle's" sole intention is only to put the "theism" back into "pantheism" and that is by my not allowing marxist "pan-atheists" like "Naturyl" and his lying ilk to "hi-jack" the religion/philosophy of pantheism and to so "pervert" the term pantheism from its authentic and original meaning.
Do you not understand, Jack?
Best regards,
Needle aka Paul Vogel
Wait and see.
Yes, User:216.99.245.149 is the guy known elsewhere as Needle. I'm totally confident that time will vindicate what I've said here. If he sticks around, you'll understand my concern soon enough. That's all I have to say on the matter at the moment.
Oh, and also, have a look at this...
http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Cosmotheism&action=history
- Yep, I've been watching that article too. I don't mind his edits myself, in fact the only real area of concern appears to be the shared animosity between the two of you, and the left/right communist/nazi accusations going back and forth. What annoys me is that he hasn't made an account yet. Also I can't fathom how pantheism, cosmotheism, or any of it mixes nicely with rascism, for if God is all, a negro is... still part of God. Of course it won't mix w marxism at all, since commies are atheists :). Jack 23:08, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Heh... actually, naturalistic pantheism mixes quite well with atheism, but since you don't accept naturalistic pantheism, I don't guess that fact makes much difference to you. As to the "left/right" accusation, I'm not a Marxist, but since Needle insists on calling me one, I won't argue the point. As a dialectical materialist, my philosophy is in line with Marxism anyhow, so it's no big deal to me.
"Obviously! Especially, considering this Marxist Pan-Atheist PC tripe:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/naturyl/texts/pantexts/blemish.html
What else isn't new?"
On the other hand, the accusations against Cosmotheism can be verified immediately by visiting www.cosmotheism.net - where one finds a tribute to William Pierce, among other things. Do you really want classical pantheism associated with this? The latest edit of cosmotheism states that the two are one and the same, you know...
-Nat
Yeah, I know. And if I can tolerate it being associated with its prescice inverse (atheism) I can tolerate it being associated with just about anything, nazism included. I would love to discuss and debate exactly how and why anyone would assume that the word "pan=all theism=God" was synonymous to atheism, spiritual and nature loving or otherwise. Atheism is the rejection of God, antithetical to ANY form of theism. Nazi theology was an interesting combination of Hinduism, mysticism/occultism and Germanic paganism, thinly cloaked in an veil of christianity. Whilst this is clearly socially repugnant today, I am concerned only with the proper use of the term (Pantheism), not the P.R. aspects of it. I don't bother introducing myself as a pantheist to your average bloke, since he isn't going to know the word anyhow. Instead, I discuss religion in an inclusionist fashion, teaching others how much we all agree on the fundamentals, the absoloutes. Theism is a pragmatic faith, atheism a no-win soloution (in my POV satanism disguised). Jack 23:33, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Oh my... well, alright then. Perhaps I was mistaken in my prediction that you will see the problem with Needle. Describing atheism as "satanism disguised" is certainly not an encouraging sign, nor is your willingness to tolerate racist propaganda in the presentaion of pantheism, nor is your apparent dogmatism in speaking of the 'proper' interpretation of pantheism. Based on this clear evidence that you are in fact unqualified to speak on modern pantheism, I would once again recommend that the pantheism article be reverted to my last edit, although I will not do so myself. Given your views, I doubt that any further exchange between us likely to be particularly productive. However, if you are sincrere in your desire to learn about how atheism and pantheism can be seen as compatible, I'd recommend the following link as a good place to start:
http://www.geocities.com/finis_stellae/ng/ft/atheism-and-pantheism.html
Good luck, and I mean you no personal disrespect, but I do hope that you will broaden your understanding of pantheism and refrain from characterizing the modern mainstream (naturalistic) interpretation in terms such as "satanism disguised." I ask that you do so not only as a fellow Wikipedian, but as a director of the Universal Pantheist Society and president of the Pantheist Awareness Network. :)
-Nat
And I'm now reverting this page itself, as Needle ( 66.2.156.38 ) has just blanked it. This is an act of vandalism, and should be treated as such. As I warned days ago, be prepared to revert over and over agin. When he doesn't get his way, this guy will not think twice about vandalizing.
-Nat
Pantheism=Atheism?
I think not. If this is your agenda, please edit the Atheism article. If you must, place a paragraph in the article clearly and honestly expressing your view that "atheism and pantheism can be seen as compatible". So long as you make it clear that this is the POV of some (your organization, clearly) I have no problem with that. I myself see it as Doublespeak, but thats my POV. We don't have to have the same POV, just the same love for truth and academic standards in regards to the wiki. In a way, it is ironic that a concept like "pantheism" (theoretically THE faith of inclusionism) has attracted 3 such uncomprimising adherants, with seemingly a common ground only in their love for wiki :) Jack 00:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
No, pantheism does not = atheism...
But it is *compatible* with atheism, in the view of most modern adherents. The World Pantheist Movement agrees, as does the Universal Pantheist Society, as does the Pantheist Awareness Network. The WPM< by the way, is an organization with which I have no affiliation, and it is also the largest panthesit organization in the world. Together, these three organizations represent the vast majority of self-professed pantheists active on the internet. I'm curious as to why they are all wrong and you are right...
- me too... whats the size of your membership? or theirs? How do those numbers compare to the combined total of worldwide Hindu's, who define themselves as pantheistic? ;) Jack 00:27, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hindus don't describe themselves as 'pantheists,' they describe themselves as 'Hindus.' Again, I'm talking about self-professed 'pantheists' here. What's more, most Hindus are panENtheistic rather than pantheistic, if we want to be accurate.
WPM has about 2,000 members, all of whom profess *pantheism itself* rather than a traditional system which may or may not contain various pantheistic elements. The WPM is "pantheism by pantheists," as is the UPS, as is Panaware. The WPM alone comprises the vast majority of persons who call themselves 'pantheist' and wish to be part of a pantheist group. The WPM fully accepts the compatibility of pantheism and atheism, as in fact do all major pantheist organization that I know of.
Again, why are they wrong and you right?
-Nat
appeal to the people?
Also known as the Bandwagon fallacy, this argument that "x is compatable with y because z people believe it" is unhelpful. I am right because I am right. You can study any dictionary or encyclopedia, or any source what-so-ever other than your own organizations, and discover this to be the case. Theism is the opposite of atheism, no matter what sort of Theism it is. Anyways, I agree that whoever blanked the talk page is a vandal, and should be reported to the Vandalism in progress page. I'm gonna do that right now. Jack 01:02, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Pantheism isn't really "theism" anymore... and that's where all the terminological trouble starts!
Regarding reporting the vandalism, I already did it, but some extra corroboration won't hurt.
Anyhow, since you've admitted that the basis of your argument is "I'm right because I'm right," it looks like I was correct in predicting that we wouldn't get far with this discussion. You can't credibly accxuse someone of a fallacy while introducing a much bigger fallacy, you know. "I'm right and you're wrong because I said so" isn't a particularly compelling line of reasoning. :)
This is all in good sport, though, and I do appreciate your civility.
-Nat
- Sorry, but due to edit conflict the following text will be in regards to your previous comment, not the one directly above. It is as follows: also, irregardless of your definition of Hinduism as Pantheism or Panentheism, it is abundantly clear to me that the members of the three organizations you listed (and that cosmotheist group as well) are the smallest fraction of what is a rather reasonable and easilly imagined philosophy (a philosophy apparently not to be found within your organization, from what I have seen). In short, I don't agree that your organization is in anyway pantheistic at all, quite the opposite. And being a "classical" as well as an intedenominational (isn't that what pantheism is all about???) Pantheist, I am quite disturbed to find you expecting me (or anyone else for that matter) to accept the views of your denomination as speaking for all of pantheism, just as any good methodist would be shocked to hear a Episcopaleon speaking for all Christendom ;) BTW, I moved our complaint to the top of Vandalism in progress, so it will be in accordance with the linear sequence of the page. Jack 01:19, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- I likewise appreciate civility, and I pray that all of this effort and chiseling will have a positive outcome for the wiki, and our respective souls :) Jack 01:21, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Soloution
Can you live with the most recent edit? I removed nothing substantial.
As for your claim of pantheism needing to be inclusive, please remember that it is you who are referring to the largest pantheist organizations in the world as "not in any way pantheistic at all."
I'm not speaking for all pantheists. In fact, as far as the Wiki is concerned, I'm not speaking for *any* pantheists, including those who agree with me. I am speaking for the facts. The facts show that all major pantheist authorities today accept naturalistic pantheism as a valid interpretation, and that interpretation is in fact the most widespread among people who refer to themselves specifically as 'pantheist.' Far from being POV, I think I've gone out of my way to make allowance for the dualistic view - despite the fact that its adherents are a minority in the community of people who identify themselves as 'pantheists.'.
I am absolutely NOT here to do a POV hack job in order to promote my own beliefs. I'm not suggesting that you are, either. Hopefully we can both continue to keep in mind that we are seeking the same goal - fair and accurate treatment of the subject matter.
-Nat
- The recent edit is entirely satisfactory. It is clear to me that you are focused on the quality of the article, irregardless of your POV. I would also like to include informations/links regarding the Cosmotheist, Cosmologist and any other organizations/concepts/ways of describing religious philosophy, which are considered applicable to this subject (such as an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God). I am perfectly willing to have information provided from friends of Dr. William Pierce as well as anyone else, assuming that they adapt to the ways of wiki. Cheers, Jack 02:10, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Well then, I guess we've got this worked out - until someone else comes along and disagrees with our compromise. ;) Such is the nature of the wiki, though. If the article ends up better in the long run, I guess I can live with some bumps in the road along the way.
The article as it stands is fairly good, I think. My goal was to make it the best unbiased, NPOV brief summary of pantheism available, and I think we've probably accomplished that. Sure, there are some things that I might be able to do without, but I'm sure you feel the same way. Overall, though, the article works. I'm glad we were able to reach a compromise.
"The recent edit is entirely satisfactory. It is clear to me that you are focused on the quality of the article, irregardless of your POV."
"I completely disagree."
I would also like to include informations/links regarding the Cosmotheist, Cosmologist and any other organizations/concepts/ways of describing religious philosophy, which are considered applicable to this subject (such as an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God).
"The best ways to discover the COSMOTHEIST or the Classical Pantheist "interpretaton" such as by any "objective" and "factual" in-depth discussion as to "personal GOD/S verses IMPERSONAL GOD/S and CONSCIOUS GOD/S verses UNCONSCIOUS GOD/S" is to first start out with having personal integrity.
What I mean by having "personal integrity" is to "mean what one says and to say what what means", without any deliberate mis-leading misrepresentation, whatsoever."
I am perfectly willing to have information provided from friends of Dr. William Pierce as well as anyone else, assuming that they adapt to the ways of wiki. Cheers, Jack 02:10, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I will not "vandalize" anymore articles, if that is what you mean by "adapting to the ways of wiki" only as long as the the focus of ALL articles here are ONLY based SOLELY upon the OBJECTIVE FACTS and not just upon ANY PC-MARXIST-ATHEISTIC BIASED OPINIONS.
I have made some changes
gave the pantheism page a rewrite, and created a seperate pages for Classical and naturalistic pantheism. My primarary goal was to make the page as coherant and Utilitarian as possible for the common reader. I realize that there is a great deal of disagreement on issues of theology, politics, and what-have-you among our tiny community of self-proclaimed pantheists, but I want to focus on where we agree. For the good of the common reader, the general public. I am sure we all agree that the majority of pantheists are unaware of the term. Let this be a entry that informs them, rather than confuses and upsets them with debates. I do see a need for debate, and the discussion of it, but I don't think it merits more than a paragraph in this article. The seperate articles classical pantheism and Naturalistic Pantheism as well as Cosmotheism are a fine place to place longer discussions of doctrinal and fractional differences. I strongly implore anonymous user to create an account, and to provide detailed documentation of your docrtines on the cosmotheism page. I would love to learn more, and while I would like to add to that page, I admit my relative ignorence of your organization, and the particulars of the hierarcical system. Merry Christmas, Jack 06:52, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Mmm-hmm. it seems that you've pretty much wiped out the entire original article. Well, whatever. At least you put a lot of the deleted material in the Naturalistic Pantheism article, which I will edit later. Happy holidays.
-Nat
Yeah, I decided that alot of what was there wasn't so much about Pantheism generally, as it was about the "denominations". OF course, I was inspired to do this by an extreme edit by anonymous, which you might like to take a look at. I don't like reverts, as a general rule, and I figured that we might more easilly agree on a more consise article. Jack 06:10, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Jack-
Regarding any "revisions" of mine for greater clarity or "accuracy", why would that ever constitute any kind of "vandalism", Jack, whatsoever?
Also, you must truely understand that this "Naturyl" of the UPS has been slandering "COSMOTHEISM" and has been slandering and censoring and banning all true Classical Pantheist "COSMOTHEISTS" just like me for a very very long time.
Enough already!
Curious?
Here is just another example from one of "Naturyl's" network of "Pan-atheists":
Best regards,
-Needle aka Paul Vogel
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The same silly rubbish we've all been hearing for three years. Yawn.
"Indeed. The "pan-atheists" like "Naturyl" and his ilk have been falsely "attacking and censoring and banning" all of the true pantheists/cosmotheists for quite a long time.
It really does get "boring", indeed."
I have to admit, you did find an ideal place to act out your psychotic tendencies in the Wiki. They are notoriously slow to ban. Who knows how many of your vandalisms we will have to revert before they finally ban you, like every other website eventually does.
"I find it amusing that someone that was on "pyscho-active" drugs actually accuses me of acting out "psychotic tendencies". The only websites that have ever banned me were marxist-pc ones that couldn't handle the truth, and no more and no less."
JackLynch now realizes that you are a vandal.
"I am not any "vandal", whatsoever, I just want the "objective truth" to be told."
Soon, wikipedia management will realize the same thing. Until then,I'll be checking my watchlist regularly, and I'll delete your vandalisms as fast as you can put them up. You know I will.
-Nat
"Well well, Nat, it seems to me that if you are the one threatening to "delete" any revisions "as fast as one can put them up" then just you are really being a "vandal" and then wikipedia will only end up just banning you for it. So be it."
Paul
I don't think you are a vandal.
"I am not a vandal". Thanks. :D
I do think mistakes have been made, and you have some work to do. Naturyl... while mistakes have been made, I do not agree with unnecessary reverts. If Paul makes a positive, or even neutral, heck, even a slightly bad edit, do not revert. That is against the wikiphilosophy.
"Thank you, Jack.
The only reverts I do are only for greater accuracy and objectivity."
Check out Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot. Please try to get along, not only for the good of the wiki, but for the good of the earth. Indeed, our kindness and tolerance for one another is one of the most sincere ways to obey God. Thank you for your support. Jack 03:30, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"Indeed, and I could not agree more, Jack. :D
Remember that "obeying GOD" is NOT what any "Pan-atheist" ever has had any real intention of ever doing, whatsoever, unfortunately."
Oh, jeez...
Oh boy. We've got one of those "let's be fair to Needle and give him a chance" types involved now... this will drag everything out twice as long.
"And why not?
Because "Naturyl" can't stand to let the "other side of the story" ever be told "objectively" in any truely "open" forum.
What else isn't new?"
I know this from experience because I WAS one of those types. I have unbanned Needle from my forums more times than anyone else on the Internet, I have given him more chances than anyone else by far. I've learned, the hard way, that all such leeway and patience is wasted on Needle.
"In other words, "Needle" has the terrible "personal integrity" to always and only say what he means and mean what he says, and whether it is actually marxist "politically correct" or not."
No matter how many chances you give him, the result is going to be the same, so it's best to get it over with. As I told you, Jack, I have three years experience with this guy, yet like all the others (including myself three years ago), you will not listen to those who have been there, you have to find out for yourself. Such is the way of life, I suppose.
"The actual pantheist "way of life" is NOT to ban and censor all of those of which and of whom you just happen to disagree, but, that has been the "way of life" for "Naturyl" and for his marxist "pan-atheist" ilk for well over three years and counting. My many years experience with fighting against the marxist-atheistic-pc banning and censoring of the whole truths of reality is personal evidence of that fact."
JackLynch and all others will eventually come to understand the futility of dealing with Needle, as I did. When Needle is banned (and he WILL be), my comments on this page and others will be vindicated.
Until then, I'm leaving the Wiki. Take care, Jack, and others.
"I am really very easy to deal with by all of those actually having "personal integrity" meaning all of those that do mean what they say and that do say what they really mean.
If Jack and any others of wiki do have such "personal integrity" then it will not be "Needle" that is banned nor "Naturyl" that will be "vindicated".
Only such marxist-pc cowards like "Naturyl" do run away when there is any even playing field and when all ideas, whether marxist-pc or not, are actually allowed to compete fairly and openly without any deceptive censorship "rules" to falsely "throw" the game."
Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE
I also oppose censorship and intend for all of us to successfully contribute to a better wiki, and as a True pantheist, I furthermore intend to explain to everyone how we agree deep down, on the fundamentals. Lets forget about our ego's and our pasts, and focus on the work of understanding God, and explaining him to others. Jack 04:26, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Jack,
I am glad that you also oppose censorship and that the fundamentals are what is important that we agree with "deep down" and that the work of understanding GOD and explaining GOD to others is the real focus of our efforts. :D
Best regards,
Needle aka Paul Vogel
Personal God
I would like to hear more from Paul about a personal vrs. impersonal God.
"Ok."
Is your (I assume your, you are Cosmotheist, correct?) Cosmotheist God personal?
"Yes, I am a COSMOTHEIST, and the factual answer to your question as to whether any true Cosmotheists' GOD is a personal or is an impersonal one, the correct answer is the term "MU", meaning both/and at one and the same time."
Is he involved in your life?
"Yes, of course, he and it are both involved in my life."
Does he communicate with you?
"Yes, of course he and it does communicate with me."
My God certainly is and does.
"As well as it should be and certainly should do, Jack."
This is an area I would like to explore, as it is tremendously important, and is not given enough time in the verious pantheistic articles. Jack 04:27, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)"
"Indeed, it most certainly is worth exploring and it certainly is tremendously important and is never given enough time in most of the various true classical pantheist/cosmotheist articles and it almost never appears within any "pan-atheist" articles."
Best regards,
Needle aka Paul Vogel
reverts
FYI:
The "reverts" will and can go on forever as long as you continue to link to only a Jewish-Supremacist and biased and to a completely factually-inaccurate and slanderous and Marxist-PC-bigoted "biography" of the late Dr. William L. Pierce verses this factually-accurate and objective one here:
http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:66.2.156.62&action=edit