Talk:Martin Luther King, Jr.

King was shot at 6.01pm. I believe this article is biased in favour of William Pepper's ridiculous argument that the Government killed King.If you must leave this in please allow your readers to access some work which criticises the conspiracists' view.You cite David Garrow's book yet do not inform your readers that this King biographer and expert called the Jowers trial 'shameful' and the King family's acceptance of Pepper's claims "egregious and embarassing". The following article may give some balance to your reporting.

http://crimemagazine.com/05/martinlutherking,0612-5.htm

Contents

1 Stuff with no headings

2 Views on anti-Zionism

3 External links critical of Martin Luther King

4 • Michael Luther King, Jr.?

5 Other stuff

6 Martin Luther King Jr. Plagiarist

7 School

8 Link to National Archives needs to be changed:

9 Censorship of Links

10 Molloy and the "Communist training camp"

11 Suspected copyvio

12 Democratic socialist?

13 King and the climate of the times

14 Philosopher?

15 King gets a free pass in this article

16 Jefferson's half-black children: a response

17 Authorship Issues to Accusations of Plagiarism

18 External links

Stuff with no headings

are you sure about the time of assasination, I alwas thought that MLK was dead in the afternoon, around 5 to 6 pm ?!

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/about_king/ --> Zouhair

Is there no way to protect a page just from anonymous editing? Has it ever been tried? If so, does it make a difference? --JimWae 06:59, 2005 Feb 4 (UTC)

MLK: The Red Reverend (http://balder.prohosting.com/jerryku/redrom/mlk.html) Here's my webpage talking about Dr. King's socialist beliefs.

An event in this article is a April 4 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment).

Was the U2 song about the US Bloody Sunday or the UK one? -- The Anome

The Northern Ireland / Free Derry one...

Looking at the lyrics, it could be about either, but I have a feeling that with U2's Irish background it is likely to be the latter. -- The Anome

Plus there are numerous interviews (and some onstage hectoring) by Bono which make it perfectly clear which one they're talking about...(e.g. http://politics.guardian.co.uk/devolvedpolitics/story/0,9137,582283,00.html)

There might be some confusion stemming from the fact that their song Pride in the Name of Love was about the assassination of MLK.

Anyone know if Dr. King was named after Martin Luther? Or is it just a coincidence?

he was named after his father (known popularly in Atlanta and the Civil Rights community as "Daddy King"), who was named after Martin Luther. They're a dynasty of preachers. A minor point - I know that he is usually called 'Dr. King' in Civil Rights discourse, but in encyclopedia articles one usually drops titles after the first occurrence.--MichaelTinkler

Daddy King was actually born Michael King and his son was named after him. In 1934 Daddy King changed both his name, and that of his son, to Martin Luther after a trip to Europe

Does anyone know about his supposed plagiarism on several of his graduate papers? I have heard about this but I do not know if it's true. Either way, it would be a good thing to mention if anyone has some info on this.

Probably some more stuff on his assassination too...

--alan d

King used chunks of other people's writings in virtually all his written work (including many of his speeches). He also frequently signed his own name to things other people wrote (for him and with their consent - things like statements and minor speeches, while acting for the civil rights movement), and reused material in different times and places (lots of the stuff from I Have A Dream he had been using for yonks). It's hard to categorise all this as "plagiarism" exactly, for he tended to rewrite and mix it with original material. He just wasn't overly concerned with original authorship. I'll re-read the books i've read on this at some point and write about it in detail. That is, unless I forget. --AW

I moved MLK's opinions on anti-Zionism to here from the antisemitism page. Justification:

MLK is not an expert on the topics of Antisemitism or Zionism or whatever, and his quote is basically just rhetoric and the expression of his own opinions
MLK was an important figure in the US Civil Rights movement, yes, but that doesn't make him an "expert" -- what he said might be important because it encapsulates the opinion of a large number of people, and defines a social movement -- but MLK's opinions in themselves are no more likely to be correct than some guy next door
the putting of the quote on that page seemed to me to be mainly an appeal to authority (kind of like quoting a physicist about the existence of God, or a movie star about the morality of abortion or something like that)
if someone wants to strip out the rhetoric, and give the gem of MLKs argument on the antisemitism page, go ahead -- which would probably be "Many people, especially but not only Jews, consider anti-Zionism to be a cover for antisemitism. [Then add brief response of those who disagree]" (if thats not said there already).

-- SJK

There should be more about this man, other than his views on Jews. What about civil rights? --Uncle Ed

There is. 68.6.102.52 deleted most of it though. Now restored. --mav

for the record, a google search of "Baboon mouth" retrieved twelve citations. Of the twelve, the only ones that contextualize MLK refer to a single song. So, on the entire internet, there is only one reference to "Baboon mouth" and King. Therefore, "Baboon mouth" has no place in this article. Kingturtle 17:30 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Rather than remove all the "anti-King" links -- including to extreme right-wing groups, including one to the John Birch Society -- I added small quotes from each to clarify what they are about -- which was not necessarily clear from the shorter titles. Bcorr 03:36, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

--- I don't think the Zionist hoax really belongs in this enry.

Good point. I've moved it here. -- BCorr ¤ Брайен 19:44, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Views on anti-Zionism

"When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism."

Those words were spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. in a 1968 appearance at Harvard [ from "The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel" by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969]. However the following "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," appears to be a hoax [1] (http://www.col.fr/judeotheque/archive.doc/Lettre%20a%20un%20ami%20antisioniste-canulard.txt).

".. You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews - this is God's own truth. Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind....And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe....The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'! ...Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews - make no mistake about it."

I've finally removed these -- they don't really seem appropriate in that they go beyond a reasonable balance:

External links critical of Martin Luther King

John Birch Society: "An Anti-Communist Negro Makes This Appeal: Please Don't Help Glorify Martin Luther King" by Mrs. Julia Brown (http://www.jbs.org/visitor/focus/refute/dont_glorify.htm)
Honoring the King Myth (http://thenewamerican.com/tna/1999/01-04-99/king_myth.htm)
Martin Luther King - The Man Behind the Media Mask (http://www.joelskousen.com/forums/messages/166/462.html?1012846277)
Myths of Martin Luther King (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html)
Remarks of Senator Jesse Helms, October 3rd, 1983 On the Subject of Martin Luther King Jr. (http://www.ket.org/bookclub/books/2000_sep/cong_rec.htm)
The King Holiday and Its Meaning (http://www.free-market.net/forums/main0201/messages/264712553.html)

BCorr|Брайен 00:46, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

• Michael Luther King, Jr.?

These seem like reputable sources to confirm what I have stated about Martin Luther King's birthname.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/martinluther/who_said.html
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/mlking.asp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/king_martin_luther.shtml

Hi Darrien -- the Snopes page you listed has the following quote from MLK's father:

I had been known as Michael Luther King or "Mike" up until I was 22 . . . when one day my father, James Albert King, told me: 'You aren't named Mike or Michael either. Your name is Martin Luther King. Your mother just called you Mike for short.' I was elated to know that I had really been named for the great leader of the Protestant Reformation, but there was no way of knowing if papa had made a mistake after all. Neither of my parents could read or write and they kept no record of Negro births in our backwoods county . . . I gladly accepted Martin Luther King as my real name and when M.L. was born, I proudly named him Martin Luther King, Jr. But it was not until 1934, when I was seeking my first passport . . . that I found out that Dr. Johnson, who delivered M.L., had listed him in the city records as Michael Luther King, Jr., because he thought that was my real name.

To me, this is not enough to say that he was born Michael King. Snopes is usually quite definitive in its statements, and in this case they basically say that they don't know. And the BBC article clearly confuses MLK with his father. So for me this still falls into the "urban legend" category. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 04:11, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

RE: Name change not being an urban myth: As far as reputable sources for King's original name being Michael King Jr. see the Autobiography of Martin Luther King edited by Carson Clayborne (who edits the King papers so he should have some idea what he's talking about!), http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/about_king/encyclopedia/King_Sr_Martin_Luther_King.htm also by Carson and http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-1009 written by John Kirk, a British Civil Rights historian--138.251.122.58 17:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Do you think the Nobel Prize people got it right?
- http://nobelprize.org/peace/laureates/1964/king-bio.html
--JimWae 07:47, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)

No, I don't think they did. Read the snopes article, which quotes from his father at length. His father was originally named Michael, which was later changed to Martin. Due to a paperwork slip-up, some of his birth records used "Michael", but that was not his parents' intention, nor was he ever known by the name. RadicalSubversiv E 08:25, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

but that was how his birth was registered. By ignoring (& repeatedly deleting) this in the article you open yourself up to a charge of bias. If you try to hide it, it's like you think it's a big deal--JimWae 08:29, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)

I've just added a note explaining the situation. Also, I don't appreciate being accused of bias (and I'm not even sure what the bias would be -- an ideological slant against my own first name?). My intention in removing the claim was to improve the article's accuracy and uphold a previously-established consensus that the information was incorrect. Moreover, I'm not the only one to have done so ([2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_Luther_King%2C_Jr.&diff=5219070&oldid=5185346), [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_Luther_King%2C_Jr.&diff=3413625&oldid=3341969)). RadicalSubversiv E 08:57, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Other stuff

I removed the following quote and its citation from the article:

King also was a strong supporter of the State of Israel, voicing his support nearing its 20th birthday. Congressman John Lewis recalled "On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with calrity and directness, stating, 'peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and security must be a reality.' During the UN Conference of Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The USA stood up against these vicious attacks. Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, 'I solemly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews - because bigorty in any form is an affront to us all.'"

Here's why. This long quote, while accurate, would belong in the article on Rep. Lewis. And more importantly, the short qoutes-within-the-quote are of very questionable authenticity. Congressman Lewis stated that King made this comment "shortly before his death" during "an appearance at Harvard." According to the Harvard Crimson, "The Rev. Martin Luther King was last in Cambridge almost exactly a year ago--April 23, 1967" ("While You Were Away" 4/8/68). If this is true, Dr. King could not have been in Cambridge in 1968. Also, an intensive inventory of publications by Stanford University's Martin Luther King Jr. Papers Project accounts for numerous speeches in 1968. None of them are for talks in Cambridge or Boston. [4] (http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.html), [5] (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2356.shtml). Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 12:07, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Martin Luther King Jr. Plagiarist

One of the most publicly “hidden” facts is that Martin Luther King plagiarized his doctoral thesis from the Crozer Theological Seminary.

Here is the story as reported in The New Republic, Jan 28, 1991 v204 n4 p9(3) Embargoed. (Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarism story cover-up) Charles Babington. Full Text: COPYRIGHT 1991 The New Republic, Inc.

On November 9 The Wall Street journal published what was widely seen as a solid, page-one scoop: Martin Luther King had plagiarized parts of his doctoral dissertation. The next day the rest of the press followed with front-page stories, crediting the journal for the news. What they didn't reveal was that many of them had had the story themselves-a story that had been widely rumored, and easily available, for a year-and not printed it. The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Atlanta journal/ Constitution, and THE NEW REPUBLIC had all failed to run articles even though at least one editor at each journal knew of the King story last spring, and three right-wing journals had already published it.

The story begins on December 3, 1989-eleven months before The Wall Street Journals coup. The Sunday Telegraph of London carried an article headlined: "Martin Luther King-was he a plagiarist?" The column, by Frank Johnson under the pen name Mandrake, said, "Researchers in his native Georgia must soon decide whether to reveal that the late Dr. King ... was, in addition to his other human failings, a plagiarist." The column even identified the smoking gun-the dissertation of fellow Boston University student jack Boozer, from whom King lifted large passages verbatim. Mandrake quoted Ralph Luker of Atlanta, top assistant to Clay-borne Carson, the Stanford historian chosen by Coretta Scott King to direct the King Papers Project. Luker virtually confirmed the allegations with his painstaking efforts to sidestep all questions about plagiarism. As a final goad, Mandrake wrote, "The story has not yet been published in the United States." Johnson says he got the King plagiarism story from a British professor who had visited the United States, and that he's not surprised the U.S. press ignored his article. American reporters' powers of perception tend to fail them on questions of race, gender, gays," he told me.

I first heard this story in elementary school and used it as a way of refusing to celebrate Martin Luther King Jr Day. I was removed from class and sent home for causing a disturbance. The media still can’t get things right.

I find the mention of Dr. MLK jr's supposed plaigarism to be tasteless and demeaning to the cause he fought for and the people that fought for it. I would like to have it removed so that racists and bigots can't add their trash to wikipedia. --Iconoclast 19:23, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The material is, strictly speaking, accurate, but it was presented in a POV and insulting way. I've attempted to improve it. Comments welcome. RadicalSubversiv E 03:52, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The presentation of King's wanton plagiarism is extremely POV. We are told that his ripping off virtually his entire doctoral thesis and much of his most famous public speechs is somehow a wonderful expression of an African tradition. BIAS. Sixpackshakur 02:58, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

The tone of the plagiarism discussion in the article is, again, extremely POV. Makes it sound as though he has been accused, but may or may not be guilty. I am reintroducing my edit and will continue to do so. 70.19.110.64 18:05, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

School

What were his degrees in?

I added some detail on Martin Luther King Jr's death. Juicyboy 325. 11/16/04

I'd like to add that "MLK: The Red Reverend" link and change the "Democratic Socialist?" heading to "Democratic socialist?" if possible.
gaidheal 19:57, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Link to National Archives needs to be changed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Archives_and_Records_Administration instead of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Archives , now a disambiguation page.

Censorship of Links

What ever you do please do not allow the following link to ever be listed on this page: http://www.Martinlutherking.org It has very politically incorrect points of view and documents about Martin Luther King that commits the crime of defaming the dead. Please ensure this link never is included in the article, all of the information on this site was written by ultra radical right wing extremist neo-nazis.Dariodario 14:14, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have to admit I find this posting very suspicious. The link wasn't listed in the first place, and terms like "censorship" and "politically incorrect" are not typically self-descriptive terms. I've got my eye on you. --Fastfission 14:07, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The site might be linked to the Stormfront movement, but none of the fact presented in the articles are presented as simple assumptions but are presented as facts supported by references. And as such should be considered an additional source of texts on the case of Martin Luther King.

I'm no fan of Stormfront or other so called white nationalist groups, but you really give your motivations away calling it 'politically incorrect'. Should we then remove all mention of criticism of abortion, pornography, feminism, affirmative action, neurodiversity and all support of the death penalty? To quote Voltaire: 'I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it' Lord Patrick 04:53, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Molloy and the "Communist training camp"

For now I'm reverting Molloy's switch from the Oval Office picture to a front page apparently from a 1963 article in Roy V. Harris's segregationist tabloid newspaper, the Augusta Courier, which bore a picture and a headline. Molloy, please support your characterization of the picture as "Martin Luther King at a Communist training camp." --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:47, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've now removed the picture twice. First, because it replaced one that was already there with no explanation. Second, because such an obvious piece of segregationist propaganda must be contextualized as such. Describing the Highlander Folk School as a "Communist training camp" is not NPOV. RadicalSubversiv E 05:28, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Suspected copyvio

An anon just pasted this large text into one of the sections. I reverted it as a potential copyvio.

Origin Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Junior was born on January 15, 1929 to Reverend Martin Luther King Sr. and Alberta Christine Williams King. He was born in 501 Auburn Avenue, Atlanta, Georgia. King also had two siblings, an older sister named Willie Christine King Farris and a younger brother named Alfred Daniel Williams King. Education When he was five years old, Martin Luther King, Jr. started to go to school before reaching the legal age of six, at the Yonge Street Elementary School in Atlanta. When his age was discovered, he couldn’t and didn’t, continue going to school until he was six. After Yonge School, he was attended in David T. Howard Elementary School. He also went to the Atlanta University Laboratory School and Booker T. Washington High School. Because he worked hard and received high scores on the college entrance examinations in his junior year of high school, he advanced to Morehouse College without formal graduation. Having skipped both the ninth and twelfth grades, Dr. King entered Morehouse College at the age of fifteen. In 1948, he graduated from Morehouse College with a Bachelor degree in Sociology. That autumn, he enrolled in Crozer Theological Seminary in Chester, Pennsylvania while he also studied at the University of Pennsylvania. He was elected President of the Senior Class, won the Peral Plafkner Award as the most outstanding student and he received the J. Lewis Crozer Fellowship for graduate study at a university of his choice. He was awarded a Bachelor of Divinity degree from Crozer in 1951. In September of 1951, Martin Luther King, Jr. began doctoral studies in Systematic Theology at Boston University. He also studied at Harvard University. His dissertation was written in 1955, and the Ph.D. degree was awarded on June 5, 1955. Martin Luther King Jr. was awarded honorary degrees from many colleges and universities in the United States and other foreign countries. They include: • Doctor of Humane Letters, Morehouse College • Doctor of Laws, Howard University • Doctor of Divinity, Chicago Theological Seminary • Doctor of Laws, Morgan State University • Doctor of Humanities, Central State University • Doctor of Divinity, Boston University • Doctor of Laws, Lincoln University • Doctor of Laws, University of Bridgeport • Doctor of Civil Laws, Bard College • Doctor of Letters, Keuka College • Doctor of Divinity, Wesleyan College • Doctor of Laws, Jewish Theological Seminary • Doctor of Laws, Yale University • Doctor of Divinity, Springfield College • Doctor of Laws, Hofstra University • Doctor of Humane Letters, Oberlin College • Doctor of Social Science, Amsterdam Free University • Doctor of Divinity, St. Peter’s College • Doctor of Civil Law, University of New Castle, Upon Tyne • Doctor of Laws, Grinnell College Occupation and Life Martin Luther King Jr. entered the Christian ministry and was appointed to be a minister in February 1948 at the age of nineteen at Ebenezer Baptist Church, Atlanta, Georgia. Following his appointment, he became Assistant Pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church. Upon completion of his crams at Boston University, he approved the call of Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. He was the pastor of Dexter Avenue from September 1954 to November 1959, when he had to move to Atlanta to guide the activities of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. From 1960 until his death in 1968, he was co-pastor with his father at Ebenezer Baptist Church. Dr. King was an essential figure in the Civil Rights Movement. He was designated President of the Montgomery Improvement Association, the organization that was accountable for the successful Montgomery Bus Boycott from 1955 to 1956 (381 days). He was detained thirty times for his contribution in civil rights activities. He was an initiator and president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference from 1957 to 1968. He was also Vice President of the National Sunday School and Baptist Teaching Union Congress of the National Baptist Convention. He was a member of many national and neighboring boards of supervisors and labored on the boards of trustees of numerous long time established people and agencies. Dr. King was selected to membership in several well-taught societies including the acknowledged American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Family Dr. King married Coretta Scott King on the 18th of June in the year 1953. Together, they had 4 children; Yolanda Denise who was born in November 17, 1955, Montgomery, Alabama, Martin Luther III who was born on October 23, 1957, Montgomery, Alabama, Dexter Scott was born on January 30, 1961, Atlanta, Georgia and Bernice Albertine on March 28, 1963, Atlanta, Georgia. They lived in different places because Martin Luther King did quite a lot of moving. Community Martin Luther King Jr. worked as a co-pastor with his father at Ebenezer Baptist Church, a key figure in the Civil Rights Movement, was elected president of the Montgomery Improvement Association, a member of many important boards including civil right supporters. The conditions of the areas where he work might have been okay because a) he was a Negro and Negroes didn’t have better environment than others but b) the areas that he worked in were important so think of them as second-rate buildings. Conclusion Other people do and should think of Martin Luther King as a hero, someone who equaled human rights in a non-violent way and believed that everybody was the same. His main accomplishment and contribution to our lives was to let everybody understand that it didn’t matter what the color of one’s skin is, white, black, yellow, orange or purple. It just mattered that they were people and they deserved the same rights as everybody else. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated while standing on his motel balcony in Lorraine Motel, Memphis, Tennessee by assassin James Earl Ray on April 4, 1968. He died of a fatal bullet wound and was buried in the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site in Atlanta, Georgia. Anecdotes When Martin Luther King was signing books one day, he was stabbed in the chest with a letter opener by a mad black woman just before he went to visit Indian Prime Minister Nehru. Martin Luther King has gotten in to jail over 50 times for his contribution in civil right activities. Martin Luther King’s birth name is actually Michael. Both he and his father changed their names to Martin at the age of six because Martin sounded better. Martin Luther King received a lot of awards for his outstanding non-violent civil rights battle. The awards he has won are the following. • He was selected as one of the ten most outstanding person of the year 19570 by Time Magazine. • He was listed in Who’s Who in America, 1957. • He won the Spingarn Medal from the NAACP, 1957. • He won the Russwurm Award from the National Newspaper Publishers, 1957. • He won the Second Annual Achievement Award from The Guardian Association of the Police Department of New York, 1958. • He was selected as one of the sixteen world leaders who had contributed most to the advancement of freedom during 1959 by Ling Magazine of New Delhi, India. • He was named “Man of the Year “by Time Magazine, 1963. • He was named “American of the Decade,” by the Laundry, Dry Cleaning, and Die Workers, International Union, 1963. • He won the John Dewey Award, from the United Federation of Teachers, 1964. • He won the John F. Kennedy Award, from the Catholic Interracial Council of Chicago, 1964. • He received The Nobel Peace Prize, at age 35, the youngest man, second American, and the third black man to be so honoured, 1964. • He won the Marcus Garvey Prize for Human Rights, presented by the Jamaican Government, posthumously, 1968. • He won the Rosa L. Parks award, presented by The Southern Christian Leadership Conference, posthumously, 1968. • Lastly, he won the Aims Field-Wolf Award for his book, Stride Toward Freedom. Martin Luther King was also quite an accomplished author He wrote many novels including • Stride Toward Freedom, 1958. The story of the Montgomery Bus Boycott. • The Measure of a Man, 1959. A selection of religious lectures. • Why We Can’t Wait, 1963. The story of the Birmingham Campaign. • Strength to Love, 1963. Another selection of religious. • Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community?, 1967). Reflections on the problems of today’s world, atomic bombs racism, etc. • The Trumpet of Conscience, 1968). The Massey Lectures, sponsored by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

I couldn't find an exact match with a google search, but the bullets in there tell me it almost certainly was copied from some other source. There was quite a bit of similarity in this page I found, http://www.wsu.edu/MLK/about.html but it was nowhere near an exact match. Possibly one was the source of the other, or both cribbed from the same source. There looks to be some decent additions that could be made to the article with the info found here, but I don't have the time right now. --Ponder 23:22, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)

Democratic socialist?

This section was not encyclopedic so I removed it. It belongs in wikiquote. Maybe there should be a subheading for Martin Luther King's beliefs?

It is decidedly encyclopedic and merits expansion. In his later years, King spoke about democratic socialism fairly frequently, and there are even some biographers who speculate that he was operating from a fundamentally socialist approach since he first read Marx in college. Regardless, the existence of Wikiquote does not mean that secondary sources should not be quoted in Wikipedia articles. RadicalSubversiv E 08:14, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Also, please sign your comments on talk pages. (by typing ~~~~). RadicalSubversiv E 08:15, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

King and the climate of the times

"This statement is remarkable since King rarely allowed his positive response to democratic socialism to be recorded. His usual practice, according to one of his aides, was to demand that they "turn off the tape recorder" while he expounded on the virtues of "what he called democratic socialism, and he said, 'I can't say this publicly, and if you say I said it I'm not gonna admit to it." King "didn't believe that capitalism as it was constructed could meet the needs of poor people," the aide said, "and that we might need to look at what was a kind of socialism, but a democratic form of socialism." Even in the speech that contains the passage cited above, King said he wasn't "going to allow anybody to put [him] in the bind of making me say everytime" that he wasn't a communist or a Marxist. Still, as democratic socialist Michael Harrington said, King was highly reluctant to name his radical position in public. King didn't want to arouse suspicion and thus compromise the achievement of economic and racial equality. "Dr. King had a genius for this," Harrington said. "How do you phrase the message so that you don't betray the message but you put it in terms which are understandable and accessible to people on the street?" Harrington claims that King "certainly wouldn't use radical phraseology in many cases for that reason." The great Marxist historian C.L.R. James recalls that King told him that while he believed in radical ideas, he couldn't "say such things from the pulpit." James say that King "wanted me to know that he understood and accepted, and in fact agreed with, the ideas that I was putting forward--ideas which were fundamentally Marxist-Leninist." James concluded that King was "a man whose ideas were as advanced as any of us on the Left.""

From the page linked at the bottom "The Red Reverend". That's why I think we should have a sentence referring to his refusal to come out and say that he was or was not a socialist. gaidheal 20:21, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The problem with labeling King is the problem with labeling King. The African-American community has a long tradtion of communal/socialist economics. But once one labels someone a "socialist," that puts them in the ambit of white socialism, socialism as a construct of Marxism, socialism as a construct of the white left -- when such is not the case, certainly, with King and with most African-Americans. In the African-American community there is a common saying, "From each according to his abilities to each according to his need." This, in a kernel, is African-Amercan/African communal socialist tradition -- without all the bilateral "commie-Yankee" connotations. That's why it is best to let King's words speak for themselves -- without the label. IMO, the reader is intelligent enough to draw his or her own conclusions from the quote already provided. deeceevoice 20:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A good point, one that I agree with for the most part, but I would say that we need something to point out the fact that while King identified in some way with demoractic socialism, it was always in private - it's a part of who he is, and why he is not perceived as a socialist in modern culture. (Unlike another African (albeit from the continent of Africa) communitarian, Julius Nyerere, for example.) Maybe we can work out some sort of compromise wording? gaidheal 20:41, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What you've rewritten is acceptable to me! gaidheal 20:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not for me -- sorry. It's nicely written, but wildly inaccurate. King's radicalism had little to do with LBJ's Great Society, which was emphatically not a "brand of democratic socialism". And while King was very concerned about the cost of the war in Vietnam relative to domestic needs, it's very misleading to connect that to his growing commitment to democratic socialism. If you read his statements about socialism (even the public ones about "social democracy"), his point was that government social spending on its own was an inadequate solution to the structural injustices of capitalism: i.e., even if the U.S. were to withdraw from Vietnam and spending the money saved on jobs, housing, etc., it still wouldn't be enough.

I just read your characterization of my edit as "wildly inaccurate." Not so. The statements about his concerns about critical economic resources being usurped by the Vietnam was indeed correct and completely valid. King --for whatever reason -- did not go on the record against capitalism, per se, instead focusing on economic justice and peace. The march on Washington following his death with the mule-drawn cart and the establishment of "Resurrection City" on the Mall was a continuation of King's call for a reprioritization of U.S. government spending to focus on problems of the poor and marginalized and a guaranteed income, which he started to enunciate in "Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?" deeceevoice 17:01, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

One matter which should be addressed here is King's notion of the "beloved community", a term he used frequently and pubicly and which clearly incorporated socialist ideals. RadicalSubversiv E 21:21, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The notion of "beloved community" is a very strong one in the black Christian community -- indeed, in Christian theology, generally -- another context for King's socialist tendencies. Saying that does in no way contradict King's criticism of the capitalist model -- which is also quite common in the African-American community. (We are very much aware that the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the tremdous fortunes amassed on the backs of black folks is what gave rise to world capitalism in the first place!) I also think it's important that note be made of King's sense that capitalism was an inadequate economic model, with built-in inequities and injustice. But I don't have time to do it. Anyone else wanna take a stab at it? deeceevoice 21:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Philosopher?

Might as well strike a discussion before dismissing MLK as a philospher.

Doing a simple search finds that some people do indeed think he's a philospher. Such as [6] (http://www.philosophyslam.org/king.html), though not exactly what I would call a prime source for philosophy, but nonetheless they picked him as a philosopher of the week.

MW defines philosopher as:

1 a : a person who seeks wisdom or enlightenment : SCHOLAR, THINKER

1 b : a student of philosophy

can you (Knucmo2 specifically) prove both of these wrong? Did he not see the wisdom in Ghandi's ways of non-violence?

I wouldn't rank him with Descartes, Socrates, or any of the other great philosopher, but he still was a philosopher. You (Knucmo2) say in your summary that wikipedians general equate "thinkers" to "philosophers", but that's just it: one who thinks to seek wisdom or enlightenment is a philosopher. Heck, MW even links to "thinker" as a similar word. Cburnett 19:19, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

King gets a free pass in this article

King is certainly not universally admired, and the soft handling he gets in this article is absurd.

An honest examination of the man cannot disregard the well-established issues of his philandering, his drinking and his abuse of women in addition to the reams of borrowings from other writers and speakers.

A very biased article reflective of a PC mindset. No different and probably less honest than martinlutherking.org.

i removed a "HE WAS ONE OF THE BEST MEN EVER TO LIVE" line from under the list of his children.--Wh173b0y 18:11, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

(portion removed)

Whoever is censoring this talk page, please stop. There's nothing to be gained by silencing the naziboys and their friends; ugliness thrives when it thinks it is a victim. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 01:51, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The article addresses King's marital infidelity. If you want an exposé, then I suggest you go elsewhere. It's not a primary focus of this article -- any more than Jefferson's gaggle of half-white children by his slave Sally Hemmings (who was his wife's half-sister, by the way; how sick is that?) is the primary focus of his article on Wikipedia. In fact, the article barely mentions it. Nor does it address the hypocrisy of Jefferson's words in the Declaration of Independence, his racism/white supremacy. All in all, I'd say the article on King is very fair. deeceevoice 13:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the reason why Thomas Jefferson's children with Hemmings aren't mentioned is that he had none.

To quote our own Wikipedia:

In 2000, a group of experts commissioned by the Thomas Jefferson Historical Society formed the Jefferson-Hemings Scholars Commission and conducted a substantial examination of the paternity question, examining the full range of scholarly, scientific, and historical evidence. On April 12, 2001, they issued a 565-page report detailing their findings. Their near-unanimous (one dissenting member) conclusion was that almost certainly Jefferson did not have a sexual relationship with Hemings and fathered neither Eston nor any of her other children. Rather, they suggest the most likely alternative is that Randolph Jefferson, Thomas's younger brother, was the father of Eston.

Sixpackshakur 03:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC) ---

Since when did "our own Wikipedia" -- written by any Tom, Dick or Harry with access to a computer with a modem -- become anywhere near infallible? Hell, when I first came to Wikipedia, "motherfucker" was supposed to be something slaves called their white fathers instead of "daddy." ROTFLMBAO. Kinda funny dat. It's my experience that a great many articles on this web site treating blacks and black history and culture should be taken with one honking block of salt.

Hogwash. It's simply revisionist history. Jefferson's liaisons w/Hemmings were well known even in his day. He was often the subject of gossip and the butt of jokes because of his fondness for his black "wench" and his gaggle of half-white "pickaninnys." It's a matter of historical record -- something which is mentioned in the writings of several authors who've written about Jefferson over the years. 'S matter of fact, when I was in college, I dated one of Jefferson's descendants. Bottom line: the hypocrite had a taste for dark meat. This issue has been bolstered, in fact, with DNA testing and is reinforced by other historical evidence -- including such well-documented accounts contemporaneous with Jefferson's life. The excuses about Jefferson's brother just don't wash. Almost everyone with any credibility is now accepting of the fact of Thomas Jefferson's half-white offspring, including some of Jefferson's white descendants. Here's a smattering of URLs from just one page of a google search. (It took all of three seconds to turn up.):

In Jefferson's time, it was common practice for white men to rape their black slaves. What? Because he was a "statesman" and helped write the Declaration of Independence," he's supposed to be some kind of saint? He also wrote that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed" -- blah, blah, blah. Uh-huh. And how many who attended the Constitutional Convention owned or managed plantations or large farms with slave ecomomies, or owned slaves? Answer: at least a dozen. How many derived their wealth and status in some way from the slave trade? A hell of a lot more. The hypocrisy of that bunch is simply a given. Amazing that some people still refuse to believe what has been proven time and again by highly reputable scientific and historical inquiry. If white men had kept their hands (and other body parts) off black women, there wouldn't have been so many "mulatto" and "high yellow" black folks walkin' around back in the day. deeceevoice 08:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see your virulent anti-white racism has blinded you to the truth. As you may be aware, and as you have hinted at, most black Americans are about 25% European stock, so your ignorant hatred is directed at your own ancestors. Your citing opinion pieces of bigots, non-scientists and ignoramuses proves nothing.

Thomas Jefferson was the subject of rumours promulgated by a man -- Thomas Callendar -- whom he had refused to hire as the Postmaster of Richmond. Spurned, Callendar let fly with the accusations.

This was in 1802. Eston was born in 1808.

Note that Tom HAS BEEN CLEARED BY THE DNA TESTS OF FATHERING ANY CHILD BEFORE ESTON (this is not to say he fathered the latter, but that this was the only child it is scientifically possible that he DID father).

Thus, the vaunted "oral traditions" that had Thomas Woodson -- the child of whom Callendar was speaking in 1802 -- as a son of TJ WERE DEFINITELY, DEMONSTRABLY WRONG as was Callendar. REPEAT: The claims that he fathered kids as early as 1802 ARE WRONG.

Even the Monticello Foundation, which is headed by a black revisionist, and which released the now-discredited Jefferson-fathered-Hemings's-kids report now says " The Foundation encourages its visitors and patrons, based on what evidence does exist, to make up their own minds as to the true nature of the relationship." So they are backpedalling fast enough to make Lance Armstrong's head spin.

To quote from a source other than wikipedia:

In 2000, the newly formed Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society asked a group of more than a dozen senior scholars from across the country to carefully examine all of the evidence for and against the allegations that Thomas Jefferson fathered one or more children by Sally Hemings, one of his slaves, and to issue a public report. In April 2001, after a year of study, the Scholars Commission issued the most detailed report to date on the issue.

With but a single mild dissent, the views of the distinguished panel ranged from "serious skepticism" to a conviction that the allegation was "almost certainly false."

http://www.cap-press.com/books/1179

Sixpackshakur 15:59, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

"Virulent, anti-white racism"? lol I challenge you to find a single thing I've said that is "racist." Just plain speak. Your reaction is typical. When black folks speak bluntly about matters of race and racism in this country, one of the first things so many whites do is they wanna holler "racism." Maybe you should go look the word up -- but I wouldn't necessarily advise you to do so on Wikipedia. :p

Note that the information I referenced from several sources postdates 2000. And, no. You're just flat-out wrong. Callendar didn't originate the rumors of Thomas creeping around at night to assert his "privileges" as lord and master over Hemmings, who -- again -- was his wife's half-sister (disgusting). Locals and Washingtonians, as well, were already abuzz with whispers about the little light, bright "pickaninnys" on the Jefferson plantation who looked just like him. You should visit the official website of Monticello. Not even the preservers of Jefferson's vaunted memory can flat-out deny the allegations. In fact, the site itself offers some pretty damning information on the controversy, concluding with some lame statement about how they 'urge the public to educate themselves and make up their own minds.' Hilarious! :D

Time to get with the times, bwoi, 'n' catch up. :p

And, yep. You're right. I've got an old craKKKer, leacherous, peg-legged, Irish rapist for a great-grandfather and only God knows how many others in the family woodpile. Do I hate him? (That's funny.) Please. I never knew the motherf***** -- of course, I mean that in a purely Wiki way. :p deeceevoice 18:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

You have consistently misspelled "Hemings" throughout your diatribes, as well as accepting uncritically a largely-discredited canard in addition to picking up unquestioningly every bit of libel that has been used to tar Jefferson. Furthermore, there is at least as convincing a case that Sally was the granddaughter of an Englishman as that she was Jefferson's wife's half-sister:

According to Madison Hemings, Sally's mother, Elizabeth Hemings (1735-1807), was the daughter of an African woman and an English sea captain. http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html

Monticello.org are primarily the ones who ran with the "Jefferson and Sally" story, and now no longer stick with it, as I pointed out above. They have consistently slandered him in this matter.

Here was their original statement:

"It likely will take newly uncovered historical evidence or scientific methods still unknown to determine beyond doubt the truth about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, and the complete story may never be known. The Thomas Jefferson Foundation stands by its original findings - that the weight of evidence suggests that Jefferson probably was the father of Eston Hemings and perhaps the father of all of Sally Hemings' children."

Here is what they NOW say:

"Although the relationship between Jefferson and Sally Hemings has been for many years, and will surely continue to be, a subject of intense interest to historians and the public, the evidence is not definitive, and the complete story may never be known. The Foundation encourages our visitors and patrons, based on what evidence does exist, to make up their own minds as to the true nature of the relationship."

Can you say "backpedal?" I have seldom seen such a stirring example of it.

In May 2000 a group of Jefferson admirers established the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society to reassess the evidence for the Hemings affair, and this collection of essays called The Jefferson-Hemings Myth is the result of their work. Taken together they are a careful summation of all we know, as well as an account of the recklessness and deceit of those who promoted the miscegenation story. As this book clearly shows, the DNA testing disproved the oldest and most persistent accusation against Jefferson, and suggested only that some male in the Jefferson line was the father of the last of Sally Hemings’ children. It paints a devastating portrait of an American intellectual class hungering to crucify Jefferson.[7] (http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/12/rescuing_jeffer.php)

I should note that persons who claim descent of Sally Hemings are not welcome at the Monticello Association, a group comprised of descendents of TJ:

In May 2002 the Monticello Association (descendants of Thomas Jefferson) voted to not admit descendants of Sally Hemings into their organization. The decision came after their careful review of all available information resulting in the conclusion that there was not sufficient evidence to prove Jefferson fathered Hemings' children. [8] (http://www.angelfire.com/va/TJTruth/)

Note that there ARE black Americans in the Association, just not those down from the spurious Hemings line.

Oral tradition states that the "yellow children" at Monticello were the offspring of Randolph Jefferson. [9] (http://www.angelfire.com/va/TJTruth/mcmurry.html)

So Callendar didn't originate the claims? So people were speaking about Jeff having fathered Hemings's children before 1802? Guess what? Science has conclusively proved that NO JEFFERSON could have fathered ANY of SH's children before Eston in 1808. Those rumours? PATENTLY FALSE.

Note too, that Jefferson denied the claims of his dalliances, acknowledging only a relationship with a certain Mrs. Walker (one wonders if Dr. King could have denied his dalliances to Coretta with the working girls of many cities):

"You will perceive that I plead guilty to one of their charges, that when young and single I offered love to a handsome lady. I acknowledge its incorrectness. It is the only one founded in truth among all their allegations against me." --Thomas Jefferson to Robert Smith, July 1, 1805. (DM 1:448)

"I should have fancied myself half guilty, had I condescended to put pen to paper in refutation of their falsehoods, or drawn them respect by any notice from myself." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, June 20, 1816.

Your side lost. Sounds like it's about time you got with the times and admitted you were wrong. :( I will at least take some solace in the fact that, having been badly beaten in this debate has forced you actually to question a lie you were only too willing to accept. Sixpackshakur 19:17, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Jefferson's half-black children: a response

Yes, I misspelled Hemings' name. A slip. The way some people may occasionally misspell Frederick Douglass' name (though they know better). And your point?

You stated that Callendar made accusations against Jefferson. My point was that the accusations existed before Callendar made his charges; he was not the only one, so the charges were not necessarily politically motivated -- as was your clear suggestion.

Regarding the dates of the birth of Hemings' children, there is no reason to believe that Hemings was Jefferson's only black "wench." He was a slaveholder with lots of black women upon whom he could force himself had he taken a notion to do so. That such rumors existed before he likely began a relationship with Hemings simply indicates that Jefferson's purported conduct fits a common pattern of the time: black slaves often were used to satisfy the sexual appetites of whites. One black wench was pretty much as good as another.

Further, you neglected to mention that, as the Monticello Foundation states:

"Although there had been rumors of a sexual relationship between Jefferson and a slave before 1802, Callender's article spread the story widely. It was taken up by Jefferson's Federalist opponents and was published in many newspapers during the remainder of Jefferson's presidency."

The following are other statements from the Monticello Foundation web site regarding the Hemings controversy that lend strong credence to the contention that Jefferson fathered Hemings' children:

"Over the years ... belief in a Thomas Jefferson-Sally Hemings relationship was perpetuated in private. Two of her children - Madison and Eston - indicated that Jefferson was their father, and this belief has been relayed through generations of their descendants as an important family truth." (an account of one of Jefferson's sons follows later)

"That a Jefferson-Hemings relationship could be neither refuted nor substantiated was challenged in 1998 by the results of DNA tests conducted by Dr. Eugene Foster and a team of geneticists. The study - which tested Y-chromosomal DNA samples from male-line descendants of Field Jefferson (Thomas Jefferson's uncle), John Carr (grandfather of Jefferson's Carr nephews), Eston Hemings, and Thomas C. Woodson - indicated a genetic link between the Jefferson and Hemings descendants. The results of the study established that an individual carrying the male Jefferson Y chromosome fathered Eston Hemings (born 1808), the last known child born to Sally Hemings."'

"Shortly after the DNA test results were released in November 1998, the Thomas Jefferson Foundation formed a research committee consisting of nine members of the foundation staff, including four with Ph.D.s. In January 2000, the committee reported its finding that the weight of all known evidence - from the DNA study, original documents, written and oral historical accounts, and statistical data - indicated a high probability that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Eston Hemings, and that he was perhaps the father of all six of Sally Hemings' children listed in Monticello records - Harriet (born 1795; died in infancy); Beverly (born 1798); an unnamed daughter (born 1799; died in infancy); Harriet (born 1801); Madison (born 1805); and Eston (born 1808)."

This from the Thompson-Gale web site (a respected company specializing in reference and source materials for public schools and universities):

"In January 2000, the committee reached the conclusion that Foster's 1998 DNA study was valid; that taken along with historical evidence, it showed not only that Jefferson was probably the father of Eston Hemings, but in all likelihood he was also the father of Harriet and Edy (the two deceased infants), Beverly, Harriet, and Madison; and that the paternity of Thomas Woodson is unclear. The president of the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Foundation added the question on many historians' minds: "Whether it was love or lust, rape or romance, no one knows and it's unlikely that we will ever know."

Also from Thompson-Gale, an account from one of Jefferson's children by Sally Hemings this verbatim excerpt:

Jefferson and Hemings in Paris

In September of 1782, Martha Jefferson died, leaving Thomas Jefferson a widower at the age of thirty-nine, and the father of two girls, Martha (about to turn ten years old) and Maria (four years old). In 1784 Thomas Jefferson was sent as a diplomat to France by the American colonial government. James Hemings went with him. Jefferson's eldest daughter Martha joined him in Paris a short time later, and was enrolled in a convent school for a formal education. In 1787 Jefferson sent for his other daughter, Maria, who made the voyage from Virginia escorted by Sally Hemings, who was either fourteen or fifteen at the time.

It is impossible for historians to say with any certainty exactly what happened in Paris between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Legally, Sally Hemings was a free person in Paris, and so was her brother James, as slavery had been abolished in France. While in France, Jefferson paid Sally and James a monthly salary for their services. James Hemings, with Jefferson's support, apprenticed under French cooks and became a skilled chef.

One historical witness

In the fall of 1789, Jefferson and his two daughters, as well as Sally and James Hemings, returned to America. By all accounts, Sally Hemings was visibly pregnant at the time of their homecoming to Monticello. Many years later, in 1873, Madison Hemings (1805-77), the sixth child of Sally Hemings, described the circumstances of his mother's return from Paris. Madison is considered the most important historical witness in this story by some, but others point to minor errors and inconsistencies in his rendering of the facts. His account was published in the Pike County Republican, a newspaper in Ohio. The following excerpt from Madison's published story sheds light on his mother's trip to France and its result:

Their stay (my mother's and Maria's) was just about eighteen months [it was really twenty-six months]. But during that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson's concubine, and when he was called back home she was enciente [pregnant] by him. He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so, he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promises, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father.

Promises kept

Between 1790 and 1808, Sally Hemings gave birth to seven children, all while residing at Monticello: Thomas, Harriet, Edy, Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston. Hemings' first-born took the name Thomas Woodson and is conspicuously absent from Jefferson's personal records. He was born in 1790, shortly after Hemings and Jefferson returned from France. Thomas Woodson was probably gone from Monticello by the time Madison was born in 1805, although the age of his departure is unknown. Hemings's second child, Harriet was born in 1795 but only lived two years. Edy was born in 1796 and died in her infancy. Hemings's second son, Beverly, was born in 1798, followed by Harriet in 1801, Madison in 1805, and Eston in 1808.

Life at Monticello for the Hemings family is best described by Madison Hemings in his 1873 memoir:

"My brothers, sister Harriet and myself were used alike. They were put to some mechanical trade at age fourteen. Till then we were permitted to stay about the 'great house,' and only required to do such light work as going on errands. Harriet learned to spin and weave in a little factory on the home plantation. We were free from the dread of having to be slaves all our lives long, and were measurably happy. We were always permitted to be with our mother, who was well used. It was her duty, all her life which I can remember, up to the time of our father's death, to take care of his [Jefferson's] chamber and wardrobe, look after us children and do such light work as sewing, &c. Provision was made in the will of our father that we should be free when we arrived at the age of 21 years."

Harriet and Beverly were listed as "runaways" in Thomas Jefferson's personal records from 1822. The reality was that they were allowed to walk away, and because of their light-colored skin, blend into the free white world of Washington, D.C. Madison and Eston were freed in Jefferson's will at his death in 1826. They rented a house together in a nearby county. Sally Hemings was not mentioned in Jefferson's will, and a year later was listed on the official slave inventory as worth $50. Although Hemings was never officially freed from slavery, Jefferson's daughter, Martha, provisionally freed Sally Hemings, by giving her "her time." Unofficial freedom meant that Hemings could stay in Virginia, where the law required freed slaves to leave the state within a year of their emancipation. Hemings spent her remaining years living in a rented house with her sons Madison and Eston. She died in 1835."

(end of excerpt)

Fifty bucks. Day-um.

Now, back to the Monticello Foundation web site for further, fairly damning evidence:

"Thomas Jefferson was at Monticello at the likely conception times of Sally Hemings' six known children. There are no records suggesting that she was elsewhere at these times, or records of any births at times that would exclude Jefferson paternity."

"There are no indications in contemporary accounts by people familiar with Monticello that Sally Hemings' children had different fathers."

"According to contemporary accounts, some of Sally Hemings' children strongly resembled Thomas Jefferson."

"Thomas Jefferson freed all of Sally Hemings' children: Beverly and Harriet were allowed to leave Monticello in 1822; Madison and Eston were released in Jefferson's 1826 will. Jefferson gave freedom to no other nuclear slave family."

If this were a modern-day case and the evidence were presented before a judge/jury, Jefferson would be paying child support -- big time. No, my "side" did not "lose." The preponderance of the evidence supports what most modern-day historians -- and some members of Jeffersons own (white) family bloodline have come to accept: Jefferson was no different from hundreds of white men of his time. He sired -- not fathered; sired -- children by at least one black woman because he wanted to, and because he could. He owned her body, and he used her/it as he saw fit.

Curious that the Wikipedia article fails miserably in covering this controversy -- something which should be remedied. :p deeceevoice 03:40, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

And what? Still no response to my challenge that you substantiate your ridiculous comment about my "virulent anti-white racism"? Typical. LMBAO. deeceevoice 03:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

If you can back this up, it would make a good addition to the Sally Hemings article Samboy 20:52, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Authorship Issues to Accusations of Plagiarism

"Authorship issues" would seem to be an appropriate subtitle in an article about a text whose authorship is being questioned. It does not seem appropriate in an article about a man, since the authorship of the man's life is not in question, but rather his own originality or lack thereof in his writings. It also seems like a way to skirt the issue. Almost all of the most respected figures in history have been human beings and subject to the limitations of that inescapable fact; it seems wrong to pussyfoot around whatever mistakes MLK might have made. "Accusations of Plagiarism" more directly addresses the issue, in my opinion, and is still NPOV (it does not imply truth or falsehood to those accusations).--67.123.232.156 18:13, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But that's NPOV to the point of obfuscation; he wasn't merely accused of plagiarism, he committed plagiarism. "Authorship issues" is quite neutral, and a reasonable person might very well parse that as "issues regarding King's authorship of academic and religious works". But perhaps another subheader title would be even better? --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:37, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, while what King did in his academic work can definitely be labeled plagiarism, it's not at all clear that the same can be said of his speeches, which fall within a strong tradition of language-borrowing in folk preaching (see the Keith Miller work referenced in the article). RadicalSubversiv E 19:31, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Very good points. I like the section heading as it is now ("Plagiarism and authorship issues"). Thanks for the fix. --67.123.232.156 00:32, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

External links

The author of the below articles has emailed asking for these links to be included; since this isn't an area of my interest or knowledge I am leaving it to active editors to decide whether to include them:

[10] (http://www.historynewsnetwork.org/articles/10325.html) [11] (http://crimemagazine.com/05/martinlutherking,0612-5.htm)

Mindspillage (spill yours?) 17:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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