Talk:Mahathir bin Mohamad

Early discussion

Does anyone know: Is bin capitizalized at the start of a sentence?-- Viajero 08:54 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)~

yes, it is usually cap'ed __earth 16:16, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, I don't think his "economic nationalism" is controversial or disputed. Rather his methods... --Viajero 09:01 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Concerning 'BIN'

Hi there!

Just thought I'd try to help clear out any confusions concerning the word 'bin' that is usually found in Asians' (particularly Malays) names.

In a Malay name, the format are as follows: 1) AAA bin BBB or 2) CCC binti DDD

The first format is for a male while the 2nd one is for a female. Unlike Western names, most Asian names do not have any family names. The 'AAA' is the first name while the 'BBB' is the father's name. Same goes for the 'CCC' and 'DDD'. The word 'BIN' actually means 'son of' where as 'BINTI' means 'daughter of'.

So, when Malays such as myself goes off overseas, we often get confused because people tend to call us by our 'supposedly' surname. For example, my name is Anis binti Hamzah, but I would be called Ms. Binti Hamzah or Ms. Hamzah. It's quite funny though, coz the person is actually calling out 'daughter of Hamzah'.

I hope the brief explanation was helpful. Any inquiries about the Malays in general, can mail me at suzanis@graffiti.net

Thanks for the helpful explanation. Maybe this can added to one of the standard help pages. -- Viajero 06:27, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Quotes

After due consideration, I have moved the following quotes here:

On October 16, 2003, he said in a speech to the Organisation of the Islamic Conference that "The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them," which prompted condemnations from the EU, USA, Israel, and Australia, among others, and the Malaysian opposition party Democratic Action Party. Condemnation from Australia was especially rare, as that nation has ignored Mahathir's rhetoric in the past.

"We cannot fight them (the Jews) through brawn alone, we must use our brains also," said in an speech to the Organisation of the Islamic Conference on October 16.

"Even among the Jews there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing." (same speech?cf Neturei Karta)

I read the entire speech [1] (http://www.bernama.com/oicsummit/speechr.php?id=35&cat=BI) and feel that to use his words in this way in the article to quote them out of context. (To be sure, his choice of words was not felicitous.) If anyone feels strongly otherwise, let's discuss it here. -- Viajero 18:07, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I have also read the speech in full, and I would say that it is anti-Semitic. He plainly used the Jews as the bogeyman, so to speak, and knowledge and science as not the end rather the means of destroying the Jews. Remember, the "Jews rules the world" myth had been used by Hitler in the Holocaust, Stalin in the Gulags, along with other Arab dictatorships, especially Iraq in the 50s to justify pogroms, exile and/or genocide. -- rajanr

And that's so different from Dubya's antisemitism, using Arabs as bogeymen. Besides, the apology for the EU poll[2] (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/04/1067708213036.html) proves Mahathir's not all wrong.

Concerns about Bush should be discussed on the Bush page. Not everything is about Bush or America. The discussion here is about Mahathir and his view of Jewish people. Do you have any thoughts you would like to share on that matter?--Malbear 12:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Query

Hi Andrew,

I am curious as to why you deleted this text:

This statement alarmed Malaysian moderates who fear that Malaysia's British-based common law is being degraded and sharia will be extended to Malaysia's non-Muslim population, notably the large population of ethnic Chinese.

It was expressed by a member of Malaysia's Indian minority. I derived it from here: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/15/1050172597745.html

You added this text yesterday:

Nonetheless, largely due to the economic development of the country, which by and large has benefited all races, he leaves behind a

peaceful and confident Malaysia.

Yet media reports suggest that certain inter-ethnic tensions remain and I think it would important to report this, if it is indeed the case. I mean, two northern provinces are now already governed by sharia!

I look forward to your comments. Thanks, -- Viajero 08:55, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Honorific

Hi again Andrew,

In conformance with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), I have unbolded dato' seri (I also added Mahathir bin Mohamad as an example). People may not immediately know that it is an Malay honorific, but they will after they read the article ;-).

As for the Dr, we tend not to use this and other titles for English-language articles. See for example Albert Schweitzer or Henry Kissinger.

Hi, For Malaysian society, honorific or title is very important and most people "bought" it rather than "achieved". It represents social class and come very useful to climb the society and economic status. It has became tool to get easy loan or land or business opportunities.

-- Viajero 09:18, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

mv one line from article here

I have moved the following line here:

It has, however been put to better uses recently; it has been used against dangerous groups of Islamic militants and terror groups.

It is rather POV. -- Viajero 14:09, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Picture

Surely we can find a better picture of Mahathir than the pathetic one that is there. Any volunteers? --Malbear 12:42, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Added:Medical school

"This eventually became the Medical Faculty of the University of Malaya. It eventually became the Medical Faculty of the National University of Singapore (bearing the original name). Thus Mahathir is an alumnus of both universities."

Was always unclear as to why both schools refered to him as alumnus. --Malbear 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To do:Adopted

"they have seven children Marina, Mirzan, Melinda, Mokhzani, Mukhriz, Maizura, and Mazhar and ten grandchildren." I believe a long time ago there was a whole long string of articles about themadopting children. Are all 7 listed there biological children or are some adopted?--Malbear 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removed:unproven cronyism

"While officially not proven, it is generally accepted that the vast majority of government members and entrepreneurs unjustly enriched themselves under Mahathir's rule, with his tacit approval."

This statement needs a citation of some sort else it is just a "surat layang" by any other name.

Citation Requested: IMF and soros endorsement

"As the Malaysian economy recovered, the IMF and George Soros released statements saying that Mahathir's policies had indeed been the right ones"

Can someone find a cite for this? Personally I doubt they came right out and said it clearly but stranger things have happened.

Embelish please:Fiscal policies

"Perhaps the prudent fiscal and monetary policies have ensured that the Malaysian economy, while not growing as spectacularly as before, is well balanced and not built on questionable fundamentals. "

Can someone fill in some details and examples. Without them this is just cheerleading.

Re-write: Doom and gloom

"Long term structural considerations, such as the uncompetitiveness of Malaysian firms, the failure of Malaysian industry to move up the value chain in the face of increasing costs and competition from other countries in the region (most notably China) as well as lack of results in R&D, still cloud the horizon, and Malaysia's long term prospects appear to be deeply uncertain if not bleak."

Can someone re-write this?

Recommend removal: Anwar

"In separate trials, Anwar was sentenced to six years in prison for corruption and nine years prison for sodomy, to be served concurrently. Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch expressed serious doubts about the fairness of the trials.[3] (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA280152003?open&of=ENG-MYS) [4] (http://www.hrw.org/press/1999/jun/anwar0610.htm)

The Anwar crisis sparked unprecedented massive protests by Malaysians, of all ethnic groups, and many of Anwar's supporters from UMNO regrouped around the intellectual-Muslim "Parti Keadilan Nasional" (National Justice Party). Despite faring well for a new party in the 1999 elections, the party foundered in the 2004 elections, with Anwar's wife, Dr. Wan Azizah Wan Ismail left as the only Keadilan member of parliament. "

This can be viewed on the Anwar page and is relevant there. I fail to see the relevance here?

I think it displays how Mahathir's actions in removing Anwar changed the political scene in Malaysia. It could be summarised a little bit more, though. Johnleemk | Talk 13:50, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Recomend removal: PAS

"Despite this, PAS only captured the state of Terengganu in the 1999 elections, and failed to retain it in the next election. This was largely seen to be due to PAS' fundamentalist Islamic policies, as they had introduced Islamic sharia laws into Terengganu and their other stronghold, Kelantan. These laws included banning various forms of entertainment, and mandatory wearing of the hijab for women, regardless of religion. Many political analysts felt that this had prevented PAS from making major gains, keeping the reins of power firmly in Mahathir's hands, as the non-Malay voters were turned off by the perceived religious fundamentalism of PAS."

What the heck does PAS election thing have to do with Mahathir anyway?

I think it shows how the electorate chose Mahathir over PAS, although I do think it could use some summarising. Johnleemk | Talk 13:50, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removed: Ministry allocation

Health and transport has always been MCA and Works has always been MIC. Finance was an aberation as originally it was held by Tan Siew Sin who was removed since he refused to allow deficit spending. In a country where Courts Mammoth can become the biggest furniture store by offering "tanpa cengkeram" anyone disallowing deficit spending will surely see the door in finance. Good man, bad politician, tough break.

Altered: Scholarships

"Malay scholarships are another major problem as these are more often given to the children of the well connected and affluent Malays at the expense of the children of poor Malay farmers/settlers/fishermen."

"Public scholarships are another issue of contention as there is a perception that these are given to the children of those who are connected and affluent giving the perception that these awards are not based on merit. Those who believe that scholarships should be given based on need would rather see it go to poor people who are often stereotyped as farmers/settlers/fishermen. However, none of these scholarships claim to be given on a basis of need."

1) There are no Malay scholarships. If the Malay community wishes to set up a scholarship fund (like Mendaki in Singapore) then they are welcome to give it to only Malays. Sort of like how the Hokkien association only gives "academic prizes" to Hokkien people etc. The issues is that these are "public scholarships" funded by the taxes of the rakyat.

2) We do not know if they are "more often" given to such people. (Unless you have a cite or a figure). We do however know that they are perceived to be given to such people. Example 100 people get scholarships, one is datuks son, there is perception that scholarships are given to those who are not "needy".

Request Cite: NS

"At the instigation of Defence Minister Najib Tun Razak (now Deputy Prime Minister)"

I am inclined (70%) to believe this is true but without a cite I will bet dollars to bananas that someone will come along and challenge it...

Summarising

I'm beginning to think we're overloading this article with irrelevant information. A lot of the material here would fit in better with National Service in Malaysia or the various election articles. We ought to summarise these longwinded details and condense them. Much of the information fits in better elsewhere.

True we could start a new page with the same title as a proposed mandatory course in local unis (thankfully never implemented) - "The thoughts of Dr. Mahathir" :) [this is a loooooong article. Why did I ever try to start eating this elephant]

Removed:Australia into Asean

"Mahathir's government is also widely perceived as putting efforts to exclude Australia from South East Asian intergovernmental agreements, such as ASEAN."

Tried googling since this rings false. No record of Australia ever wanting to join ASEAN. If anything the asian perception is that Australia is too "white", hence the Hanson concerns. It is part of Asia (regionally) yet tries to be part of Europe. Anyway please find a cite for this...--Malbear 14:05, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Re-organize: Stance on terror

"He has, however, taken a very strong stance for the war on terror, cooperating with neighbours Thailand, the Philippines and Indonesia in flushing out terrorist insurgencies, while at the same time cracking down ruthlessly on suspected militants back home."

Someone move this where appropriate because it doesn't say a thing about Mahathir and Australia (the section).

Quotations from Mahathir

Mahathir is the master of the juicy quote, so please add in anything you can attribute to Wikiquote (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mahathir_bin_Mohamed) — esp. if somebody can find the full text of the famous "Jews rule the world by proxy" quote. Jpatokal 06:38, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The "full text" meaning the whole speech? That would be worth an external link. --Christofurio 20:11, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

"The Muslims will forever be oppressed and dominated by the Europeans and the Jews. It cannot be that there is no other way. 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews. There must be a way. We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them. They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power. Of late because of their power and their apparent success they have become arrogant. And arrogant people, like angry people will make mistakes, will forget to think." Purple Rose 11:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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