Talk:List of songwriters/temp2/discuss this page
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Okay, beginning to come along. First thoughts:
- Give at least one notable, well-known song for each person listed
- List songwriting teams as teams, with articles, Lieber and Stoller. If Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller deserve individual articles, they should have them, but they are a team of songwriters. Likewise, Rodgers and Hart, Rodgers and Hammerstein, DeSylva, Brown, and Henderson, etc.
- List can have several tiers. Bullet on Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame could also include some notable members, but leave W.C. Handy for the article on that Hall, since he'll already be in the main list, and also not list, say, Sue Brewer and Albert Brumley, in this article, but only in the article about that Hall. Same for other genres, chronological classifications, whatever.
Ortolan88 16:43 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
- I like the first two suggestions, but can't quite grasp the third... Are you saying that Handy, a member of the NSHoF, shouldn't be listed there since he's already in the main Songwriters Hall of Fame?
- Another caveat, one of the lists I cut and pasted actually gives out induction for a specific song (which is listed), so it should be made abundantly clear that those songs are not the consensus of Wikipedians and can't be changed, but that the others are chosen by us. Tokerboy
Most songwriters come down to only one song, it seems, so I guess that would be the song listed with them in this list, but the article about them could include other songs. Also, I just realized that I added Harold Arlen, but if he wasn't on the Songwriters Hall of Fame list, he shouldn't be listed, but if he isn't listed, then the HOF has a big hole and this wouldn't be a very good list. Handy would be listed in every HOF that has him (that Nashville list is nice), but I was concerned about being listed several times on one page.
Another problem I'm wrestling with in these suggestions: I've been singing "Pistol Packin' Mama" all day, but there's no way Al Dexter is as important as Stephen Foster. I will try to lay out some alternatives, from conservative to radical.
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I -- No distinctions whatsoever (long version)
Here is a list of songwriters:
Songwriters Hall of Fame
Early American Song (1600 - 1879)
- Katharine Lee Bates
- William Beckett
- William Billings
- James Bland
- Daniel Decatur Emmet, "Dixie", "Turkey in the Straw"
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Tin Pan Alley (1880 - 1953)
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Nashville Songwriters Foundation Hall of Fame
- Joe Allison
- Bill Anderson
- Gene Autry
- Max D. Barnes
- Carl Belew
- Chuck Berry. "You Never Can Tell"
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Et cetera
Pro no judgments at all
Con godawful long, many names appear on list after list, many names are obscure
II No distinctions whatsoever (short version)
Many organizations have honored songwriters. Please see the following lists:
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Et cetera
Pro no judgements at all
Con no names appear, not even Stephen Foster
III Careful dispensing of useful information, making some distinctions
There is a line from the mid-19th century to the present of popular songwriters, many of them known only to history or their particular fans, such as Thomas D. Rice or Al Dexter, others whose songs have been widely popular since they were first written, such as Stephen Foster and Chuck Berry.
Songwriters Hall of Fame
This all-inclusive Hall of Fame is divided up by eras, but it includes songwriters from Francis Scott Key, who wrote the lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner to Stevie Wonder. See Songwriters Hall of Fame for the full list.
Early American Song (1600 - 1879)
In its section for these years, in addition to Stephen Foster, the Songwriters Hall of Fame includes such composers as:
- James Bland, African American who wrote, "Carry Me Back to Old Virginny"
- Daniel Decatur Emmett, minstrel show entrepreneur credited with "Dixie" and "Turkey in the Straw".
- Septimus Winner, author of "Listen to the Mockingbird" and "Ten Little Indians".
See Early American Song from the Songwriters Hall of Fame for the full list.
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Et cetera
Pro gets some of the more interesting (and more likely to be looked up) names out in front, but guarantees that everybody has their day, some on this page, all on the link pages
Con Open to being endlessly added to, cause debates on whether John Howard Payne, author of "Home Sweet Home" is more important than Septimus Winner. And, the closer we get to modern times, the louder those arguments would become.
Maybe I have ignored a better variant. Thus, we have "temp" pages, where we discuss all this. Ortolan88 21:15 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
- I think I like Option 1 -- it is long, but the biggest problem associated with that is people being unable to edit. That won't be a problem here, because these will be updated so rarely. If something needs to be disambiguated or updated with the next year's inductees, somebody can make a request on the talk page and whoever's watching the page with a better browser can do it. This wouldn't be an article that has a lot of editing going on, so the only downside really is that it would take longer to load, but I think that's a worthy trade-off considering the minuses of the other two (and I can't think of any other options). Tokerboy
Well, I have another variant, entries from the Songwriters Hall of Fame on this page, all other lists and halls and awards on pages of their own. All the very best songwriters from all genres seem to be in the Songwriters HOF. Better to let the hip-hops and the countrys and the blues and jazz specialists live on their own lists. I don't suppose Willie Dixon (blues) or Shel Silverstein (country) will ever be in the big list if they aren't in it now. And Paul Westerberg and Bob Mould stand even less of a chance. The thing I love about the Nashville songwriters HOF list, that it includes blues writers, would stand out a lot more in its own article. And the song of the year nominees from the Nashville songwriters are as uninteresting (to me) as the Nashville Songwriters HOF is fascinating. It's hard to get this right, but if we come up with something good it will help in making other lists. Ortolan88 03:37 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)
- I think I might second that, but let me think about it. Have you come up with a way to deal with partnerships in the list as far as listing songs? I just did so, but I don't really like my way (look under John Lennon -- it's ugly). (BTW, I didn't notice you had already added songs to the Nashville songwriters list for some people that were on the main list, it's interesting to see our different choices, some of which surprised me)Tokerboy
I think the Lennon-McCartney, Bachrach-David entries are just about right.
I used to sing that Vic McAlpin song "Plastic Saddle", in a band, back in the pre-safe-sex era. It is totally obscure, a cutout bin special:
- Don't deal me no plastic saddle,
- I wanna feel that leather when I ride,
- Don't deal me no paint and powder, babe
- Honey, let me feel the hide!
- Chorus: I wanna ride, I wanna ride, etc.
Ortolan88 04:50 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)
PS- I was wrong Harold Arlen is on the the Songwriters HOF list, but Thomas D. Rice is not, but definitely belongs on a list of famous songwriters. Another tricky point. Ortolan88
Resources
- Halls of Fame list (http://members.lycos.co.uk/vocalist/ebc1/halls_of_fame.html)
- Blues HOF (http://www.blues.org/halloffame/), no songwriters as such
- Blues Foundation HOF (http://www.infoplease.com/ipea/A0151040.html) no songwriters as such, mixed bag of singers, producers, deejays