Talk:List of dubious Danish kings

I don't get it. Why are they dubious? Kingturtle 02:42 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

It's not clear they exist as anything other than folklore. -- Someone else

Many of the dubious Danish kings, are history, but the date of living and reign and place, are unknown.

Any do know the start of reign of Canute the Great by Denmark. 1014 and 1018 are both possible.

Haabet

Removing Danish kings because...

They are already on the well known list, as the Jelling dynasty. 24.255.40.174 15:37, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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do you have a link to this "well known list"?

List of Danish monarchs. Anyways, it goes from Gorm the Old to Harthacanute. 24.255.40.174 11:31, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Where came this list from? Haabet 18:47, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

• 794-803? : Sigfred (Sigurd) Snogoje of South Jutland note!: A mix of two person, both kings of Denmark. Sigurd Snake-Eye' after Eric II the Younger.
• a Harald before Godfred or before Sigfred
• 798?-810 : Godfred (Gudrød, Godfrid)
• 810-812 : Hemming, nephew of Godfred reigned two years after Godfred's death

Civil war 812-814 five kings

• 813: Sigfred, another nephew of Godfred
• 813: Anulo, a nephew of the Harald before Godfred
• 812,813,814, 819-826 : Harold I (Harald Klak), brother of Anulo and nephew of Godfred
• 813-814 : Reginfrid, another brother of Anulo
• 814-827, sole ruling 827-854, died 854 : Eric I the Old, one of four co-rulers and sons of Godfred
• 854- after 864 : Eric II the Child, whose daughter married Harald I of Norway, was a son of Eric the Old's brother.
• 803-850 : Canute I (Knud I). A mix of two persons, not kings of Denmark.
• died ca 863 : Harold I (Harald Klak) in exile
• before 873-? : the two young co-rulers, Halfdan (of Frisian?) and Sigfrid (Sigurd Snakeeye).
• a Swedish "Olof Dynasty" from about 900 with Olof as its first king, he was a son of Sigfrid's brother Ivar the Boneless'.
  • at least 934 : Chnuba by christen name: Knud
  • after 934 Gorm the Old by christen name: Gothrum, and english name Worm
• died 936 : Sigtryg, last king of the "Olof Dynasty" in exile.

I didn't put it there Haab, it's actually quite pitiful. I don't know, sorry. 24.255.40.174 04:12, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Angantyr

Could someone please provide a reference for Angantyr's death on Samsö? It sounds much like Angantyr being killed by Hjalmar on Samsö.--Wiglaf 15:51, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Correctly. The history about the dead of Angantyr have many variants by growing number of Angantyrs brothers, but all speak about a Island or Samsoe. The archaeologists know the war on Samsoe in 728 and a english source say as the danish king was Angantyr about that time.217.157.164.52 22:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) Haabet 22:28, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)

Could you please provide a reference for Samsö in connection with this king? This source says nothing about Samsö:

Ongendus (Angantyr), king of the Danes, reigning ca. 710. About 710, St. Willibrord visited the Danes, at the time ruled by Ongendus, and returned with 30 boys to instruct in Christianity, but no further details are known of Ongendus (other than the fact that he was "more savage than any beast and harder than stone"). [See Alcuin's life of St. Willibrord, translated in C. H. Talbot, "The Anglo-Saxon Missionaries in Germany" (London and New York, 1954), especially pp. 9-10.][1] (http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/danking.htm)--Wiglaf 22:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The tradition says Angantyr and his brothers dead on Samsoe. Any tradition says direct as Angantyr was a king, but in Saxo the context say as the dane get a new king after the dead of Angantyr. The dead of his brothers remove candidate for the throne. Haabet 06:22, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

Haabet, you have done some creative writing on Wikipedia before. I'd rather have you cite your sources better than this.--Wiglaf 06:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In periodical Skalk had write the same. But this is a list of dubious Danish kings. And St. Willibrord is a fine sources of that time.Haabet 07:02, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

Sure, I am talking of Samsö.--Wiglaf 07:27, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Saxo 5.13.4 Haabet 19:15, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

WOW, thanks for a new source on these guys, I'll add Saxo to the Tyrfing cycle. However, this Anganty has nothing to do with Ongendus.--Wiglaf 22:15, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, king Ongendus was named of Anganty. And Saxo is not a new source on Tyrfing cycle.Haabet 10:25, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)

Haabet, have you actually read what Saxo has written? I will help you out so as to avoid further misunderstandings. First, we have a look at Saxo's Angantyr's father:

It chanced that in these days Arngrim, a champion of Sweden, who had challenged, attacked, and slain Skalk the Skanian because he had once robbed him of a vessel, came to Frode.[2] (http://sunsite3.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/book5II.html)

Now, we have a look at Saxo's Angantyr:

Arngrim had twelve sons by Eyfura, whose names I here subjoin: Brand, Biarbe, Brodd, Hiarrande; Tand, Tyrfing, two Haddings; Hiortuar, Hiartuar, Hrane, Anganty. These followed the business of sea-roving from their youth up; and they chanced to sail all in one ship to the island Samso, where they found lying off the coast two ships belonging to Hialmar and Arvarodd (Arrow-Odd) the rovers. These ships they attacked and cleared of rowers; but, not knowing whether they had cut down the captains, they fitted the bodies of the slain to their several thwarts, and found that those whom they sought were missing. At this they were sad, knowing that the victory they had won was not worth a straw, and that their safety would run much greater risk in the battle that was to come. In fact, Hialmar and Arvarodd, whose ships had been damaged by a storm, which had torn off their rudders, went into a wood to hew another; and, going round the trunk with their axes, pared down the shapeless timber until the huge stock assumed the form of a marine implement. This they shouldered, and were bearing it down to the beach, ignorant of the disaster of their friends, when the sons of Eyfura, reeking with the fresh blood of the slain, attacked them, so that they two had to fight many; the contest was not even equal, for it was a band of twelve against two. But the victory did not go according to the numbers. For all the sons of Eyfura were killed; Hialmar was slain by them, but Arvarodd gained the honours of victory, being the only survivor left by fate out of all that band of comrades. He, with an incredible effort, poised the still shapeless hulk of the rudder, and drove it so strongly against the bodies of his foes that, with a single thrust of it, he battered and crushed all twelve. And, so, though they were rid of the general storm of war, the band of rovers did not yet quit the ocean.[3] (http://sunsite3.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/book5II.html)

Please, Haabet, tell me in what way Saxo's Angantyr is a Danish king, and in what way you understand this Angantyr as different from the Angantyr of the Tyrfing cycle. I am listening.--Wiglaf 20:25, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Saxo had mix two Angantyr. One had home i dubious Danish kings, another Angantyr had home i Tyrfing cycle, but the tradition had mix them together. If a historical person had a name from a legend the tradition will mix the historical person and the legend person together. Both Angantyr and his killer Helge was danish king. Helge been danish becorses Angantyr was death on Samsoe. Angantyr been also kill of Starkad as Helge been danish king. Can you accept a compromise as Angantyr both was a dubious Danish king and a part Tyrfing cycle? Haabet 23:08, 2005 May 1 (UTC)

It does not work that way Haabet. You have to show me where Saxo calls Angantyr a Danish king. I have given you a link to a translation of Saxo. All you have to do is to search for the place that you refer to and quote it.--Wiglaf 09:31, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

PS, I'd also like you to quote the passage where Angantyr is killed by a man called Helge.--Wiglaf 09:32, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Any place say Saxo as Angantyr was a king, but after dead of Angantyr, the dane get a new king (understanded: becorse the old king was dead). And if the king after Angantyr do not like as scald song about as Angantyr was a king (because he is from a branch of the royal family), the royal title can get lost in the legend. But St. Willibrord is a written source. Haabet 16:13, 2005 May 3 (UTC)

Dear Haabet, just show me the quote where Saxo says so. You just can not speculate that a Swede called Angantyr is the same as Willibrord's Danish king. I won't accept that kind of original research and speculation.--Wiglaf 16:16, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

It is not a original research if Skalk had writed that, and Ongendus in english is same name as Angantyr in danish.Haabet 19:40, 2005 May 3 (UTC)

Haabet, Skalk is not even mentioned in the same paragraph as Angantyr. If you are so obstinate with bogus information, I'll have to take you to rfc.--Wiglaf 06:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

title

if the Danish article corresponding to this is "Sagnkonger", its title should be legendary Danish kings, or, if there are disputes, possibly legendary Danish kings. But not "dubious kings", that sounds ridiculous. Compare also the solution on King of the Britons. dab (ᛏ) 17:49, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

All legendary Danish kings is in "Saxos prehistoric list of kings". Many several times. Can you make a title to that list?

all king before Gorm the English or later was king of danes, perhaps not Danish kings. Complexed and confused. What is correctly? Haabet 20:18, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your English doesn't parse. dab (ᛏ) 10:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Some months ago, I made Legendary Danish kings a redirect to this page. I have hesitated about meddling with the Danish kings, hoping that some Danes would take care of them.--Wiglaf 10:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)