Talk:Kangxi Emperor
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Dates of reign do not math those of the Qing Dynasty article. olivier 11:48, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)
He wan't the second emperor. The Qing Dynasty was declared in Mukden in 1636. In 1644 Fulin re-declared the establishment of the dynasty, but it was just the pronouncement of taking over China from the Ming Dynasty. And Nurhaci was the virtual founder of the dynasty. So the Kangxi Emperor is counted as the fourth. --Nanshu 01:57, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I am afraid you are wrong here, Nanshu. In 1644 Shunzhi's regents including Dorgon and others had officially declared the Existense of the Great Qing Empire with jurisdiction across China, thus declaring Shunzhi the First Emperor of the actual Dynasty. Previous emperors (Nurhaci and Hong Taiji) were not usually referred to as Qing Empire Emperors but instead "The Manchuo Emperor", hence they are only counted as the founders of the dynastic line of rulers but not Emperors of the Qing Empire itself. Colipon 22:19, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
What do you mean by "actual Dynasty"? The Qing Dynasty was NOT just a Chinese empire, but a pluralistic empire. Again, the Qing Dynasty was established outside China (the Great Wall) in 1636 by recommendation of the Manchus, Mongols and Chinese. The reason of the declaration was that the son of Lingdan Khan, last grand-Khan of the Mongols, dedicated to Hong Taiji what was said to be the seal of the Yuan Emperors. This meant the succession of the Yuan Dynasty. So Hong Taiji became Emperor, changed the dynasty's name to Daicing, named himself "gosin onco hūwaliyasun enduringge han" in Manchu, "Aɤuda örüsiyegči nayiramdaɤu boɤda qaɤan" in Mongolian, and 寬恩仁聖皇帝 in Chinese, and made the era name "wesihun erdemungge" in Manchu, "Degedü Erdemtü" in Mongolian, and 崇德 in Chinese (I forget Mongolian counterparts). Thus, the declaration in 1644 merely meant the succession of China, one of the empire's subject territories, from the Ming Dynasty. --Nanshu 00:56, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC) --modified Nanshu 06:58, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... makes me wonder. But I have learned from many publications and internet articles that state Kangxi is the second empeoror of the Dynasty, and not one say he is the fourth. Although there is no doubt that Kangxi is the fourth in the line of succession of rulers. Maybe I should do a bit more researching and I trust my own knowledge too much. --Colipon 20:43, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Missing in the article is his relation with Christian missionaries in China. -wshun 03:38, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Uh... didn't Kangxi have 4 Empresses during his lifetime? Colipon 04:52, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Improvement
This article desperately needs some improvement. Missing are the details on the struggle for power with Oboi and Banburshan, revolt of the three feudatories and retaking Taiwan. [[User:Colipon|Colipon -- (Talk)]] 16:47, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I added details of the 1717 Dsungar invasion. Zagrebmukerjee, 11:46, 5 June 2005
Ethnicity of Kangxi's mother
Some Chinese claim that the Kangxi Emperor's mother was Chinese. Her family was considerably sinicized when it pledged allegiance to Nurhaci, yet it was of Jurchen origin. According to Jakūn gūsai Manjusai mukūn hala be uheri ejehe bithe/Baqi Manzhou shizu tongpu 八旗滿洲氏族通譜, it was descended from Darhan Tumet, who is identified as Tong Dalahao 佟答刺哈 in Chinese sources. Some of his descandants lived in Kaiyuan and then Fushun. In 1619 when Nurhaci conquered Fushun, Tung Yang Jeng (佟養正) and his relative Tung Yang Sing (佟養性) were submitted. Tung Tulai was Tung Yang Jeng's second son and the father of the empress. See Volume 20: Tunggiya ba-i Tunggiya/佟佳地方佟佳氏.
I don't know which came first Tong or Tunggiya, but it is an indisputable fact that Tunggiya was a major Manchu clan that prospered in various places of Manchuria, mainly in Maca. Also, Ming Chinese believed the Tong clan was Jurchen. In 1627 a man named Tong Bunian (佟卜年), who lived in Liaoyang, was executed by Chinese on suspicion of kinship with Nurhaci and Tung Yang Sing. --Nanshu 06:58, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Now, that's a very interesting comment. The only thing I would ask is this: are you really sure of your sources? A lot of wrong things are being written about these subjects, including in serious Chinese sources, so I tend to be very suspicious about anything related to Manchu subjects. Only a handful of people are really knowledgeable about Manchu language and history in the world, so it's easy to make mistakes or misunderstandings. If you are are absolutely sure of your sources, then I understand that the original clan name of Kangxi's maternal family was Tumet, which was later sinicized into Tong (佟), and then again later "re-manchufied" into Tunggiya. For the records, Manchu clan names ending in -giya are always "manchufied" versions of Chinese family names, and the practice started precisely with the mother of Kangxi. I found that information in many serious Chinese sources. Now, it is possible that the Chinese family name Tong itself was Manchu in the first place, if your sources are right, which makes the matter very complex indeed, and is another proof of the interpenetration between Chinese and Manchu elites, far away from the simplistic idea of a completely foreign people invading and conquering China. So if you're certain about it, I suggest you write in the article the evolution from Tumet to Tong to Tunggiya. Don't forget to correct the Shunzhi article too. Hardouin 13:49, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I understand your concerns. Actually, Jakūn gūsai Manjusai mukūn hala be uheri ejehe bithe was compiled as late as the Yongzheng period. And unlike, say, Tang-dynasty records, we can access very early Manchu documents and later ones so that we can analyze how they rewrote history. But forerunners have already compared the book with Ming-dynasty archives and determined that the description on the Tunggiya clan was reliable. The following is based on a paper by Mitamura Taisuke. See: Mitamura Taisuke 三田村泰助, Shinchō zenshi no kenkyū 清朝前史の研究, 1965. He discussed this topic at Chapters One and Two.
According to the book, the Tunggiya clan distributed or originally lived at the following regions: Maca, Yargu, Giyaha and Tunggiya. They formed the same mukūn. Among the clan members, we can find notable figures who were "undoubtedly" Jurchen/Manchu. Baduri of the Maca branch was onf of ten jarguci (judge) of Nurhaci. Hūlahū of the Yargu branch followed Nurhaci from the very early stage and his son Kūrgan (= Darhan hiya) was adopted by Nurhaci. However, it seems that this major clan was not considered to be a honorable family by the Manchus. So Tung Tulai would have had little incentive to assosiate purposely the Tung family to this clan.
It is clear that Tung Yang Jeng and his relatives had used the family name Tung before Nurhaci rose into power. So how far can we trace back the Tung/Tunggiya clan? The only complete genealogy Jakūn gūsai Manjusai mukūn hala be uheri ejehe bithe records is of the Maca branch. Its ultimate ancestor was Bahū Teksin and he was the common ancestor of the whole clan. Bahū Teksin had seven sons: Tun Tumet, Dargan Tumet, Yan Tumet, Yangguri Tumet, Tan Tumet, Eheli Tumet and Gargan Tumet (Note that Tumet are part of their given names). The Maca branch was descendants of Eheli Tumet and Dargan (Darhan) Tumet was the ancestor of the Tunggiya branch. As I said above, Darhan Tumet was identified as 佟答刺哈 by Naito Konan. And what is more, 佟答刺哈 can be found at the section of 佟國臣 of 三萬衛選薄. It says, "佟國臣 is Jurchen. According to it, his ancestor (始祖) 滿只 submitted (to the Ming) at the sixteenth year of Hongwu (1383), and (高祖) 答刺哈 joined the Ming military at the last year of Hongwu." In addition, 國臣's son 應詔 was at the ninth age in 1600. 應詔 and Baduri's father shared the generation. We can conclude that the ancestor of the Tunggiya clan really existed and that the surname Tung was used from the early Ming period.
Now I support the theory that Tunggiya originated in the Chinese surname Tong too. But I don't know why you think "the practice started precisely with the mother of Kangxi." Actually, the practice can date back to the Jurchen Jin Dynasty. 金史/金國語解/姓氏 says "完顏，漢姓曰王" and "古里甲曰汪". the surname 括兒牙 (kor-ya) appears at Joseon's 御龍飛天歌. 完顏 corresponds to the Manchu clan name wanggiya and 古里甲=括兒牙 to Gūwalgiya. Thus 完顏 = 王家. The meaning of *kor is not clear but Mitamura guesses that it means gate or house in Jurchen. So it is possible that the clan name Tunggiya was domestically used from very remote times. --Nanshu 07:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sacred Edict
- Could something be added on the Sacred Edict (http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/mon/kang-hi.htm)]? Filiocht 09:45, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)