Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive

Archive of the state of the talk page 15 March 2004

Talk:Jorge Luis Borges archived 15 March 2004 because we are editing out non-current discussion.

Contents

1 Borges in the Modern and Postmodern Context (linked) 2 Current questions 2.1 Current question: ``Borges as Argentine and as World Citizen 2.2 Current question: "compadrito" vs. "matrero" 2.2.1 Compadrito 2.3 Current question: did Borges have Jewish ancestry? 2.3.1 Resolved 2.3.2 The question 2.4 Current questions relating to list of works 3 Where do we want to take this article? 3.1 So we stuck the pomo essay on a talk page of its own... 3.2 ... and began working on this in earnest 3.3 Assessing the state of the article late Nov '03 3.3.1 Split it? 4 Time to archive some of the talk? (apparently not...) 4.1 ...but it is reorganized 5 20 Feb 04, edits

Borges in the Modern and Postmodern Context (linked)

Because the article length exceeded 32kb, this text was moved here from the main body for further discussion. Feel free to "mine" it for content for the article:

• Borges in the Modern and Postmodern Context

I've mined this for the articles George Herbert, Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius, and The Book of Sand. I doubt there is much of value that has not been taken, but a devotee of Derrida might disagree. -- Jmabel 08:19, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Current questions

Current question: ``Borges as Argentine and as World Citizen

That was a title this section received when it was first segrgated from the amorphous postmodern thingus we all started with. (It's two separate sections now.) Bottom line for me is that the section(s) did not and still don't reflect the thinking Borges clearly expressed about this matter in "Our Poor Individualism" and elsewhere. Goes back and forth between POVs that he was worldly vs. a product of his time and place, never really goes much of anywhere, then peters out. No criticism intended, my fault as much as anyone's. What should it be, people? Borges contended with the question of what it means to be Argentine. He advised that Argentina's literary identity must be to look to the entire world from the vantage point of an unfinished Argentina--not limit the scope of attention to Hispanic matters, let alone to the Southern Cone, and certainly not to "local color". The page doesn't doesn't reflect that view, nor critique it. Consider also that the "accusation" that he was a Jew probably conveyed in code to racists the smear that he was not a true Argentine. Whereas the original page seemed to me to paint Borges as hopelessly Eurocentric. Because I don't really understand all the prejudices involved, I'm not sure how to rise above them; If I fix it, it risks being insensitive to inter-American rivalries that sometimes portray Argentina itself, favorably or unfavorably, as distinctly Europhile. Borges did strive to rise above ethnicity and there is much to say for his efforts--but at the same time the scope of his attention was filtered--it is true that he didn't spend much research effort on indigenous cultures; and The Book of Imaginary Beings betrays that the fantastic creatures of Chinese lore escaped his pen; and he may have expressed occasional Francophobia. I'm not trying to be petty--he probably knew more literatures and cultures than anybody you or I know; and who knows what languages he would have learned had he escaped blindness--but is there a way to split the difference between the characatures of Borges as (imperfectly) worldly versus Borges the (hoplessly, myopically) Argentine? Be that as it may these two roles--Argentine, and World Citizen--cannot be separated and neither can two subsections convey anything but our ignorance. I hereby threaten to fix it unless someone who's actually qualified steps up to the plate.

-munge, 10 March 2004

Well, you may not be ideally qualified, but I don't think any of us are. Judging by the preceding paragraph, you are clearly clueful & have some idea where to take tht part of the article. When I did my major rewrite, I wasn't really focused on this "grand statement" sort of stuff, just ground-clearing and basic facts, but I wholly agree that these grand statements belong here, especially if decently sourced with examples. -- Jmabel 16:45, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Current question: "compadrito" vs. "matrero"

I'm trying to sort out "compadrito" vs. "matrero". Obviously both suggest tough guys in an early 20th century Argentine context, but I get the sense that Borges may have used "compadrito" to suggest a harder-core group than the word really meant in the context of his time. I think Borges may have exaggerated and romanticized the dangers of the Buenos Aires underworld on the distant edges of his rather bourgeois youth, and earlier authors of this article have blindly followed. The article as it stands suggests that "compadritos" were necessarily knife-fighters. I get the sense that you could have been considered a "compadrito" just by dressing like one, talking like one, etc. It no more implied actually being a fighter than wearing hip-hop styles today implies being a gangbanger. A "matrero": now that would definitely be a tough guy. Martín Fierro was clearly a "matrero", but I think it would be almost laughable to call him a "compadrito", sort of like calling Al Capone a "goodfella." But I'm a norteamericano, and my not-quite-fluent Spanish is a mix of school Spanish, visits to Spain (and not to Argentina), and a lot of reading. I'm nothing like expert on the connotations of century-old Argentine slang. Anyone else able to help me out here? (I know the odds aren't great...) Jmabel 04:54, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Compadrito

The word compadrito refers to a stereotyped form of a Latin Argentine male in the beginning of the XX century. They enjoyed tango and used to duel over a woman. Moriel 08:08, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Certainly that is the stereotype. Are you saying that a person would not be called a compadrito unless he was actually, to use 1950s English, "ready to rumble"? And would you agree that it's pretty silly to call Martín Fierro a "compadrito", for the reasons I outlined above? Jmabel 17:33, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I would certainly agree with you :) Martín Fierro was a different type of a tough guy, they were gauchos, from the pampas (open fields), horse-riders. Not very romantic, practical wise people. Compadritos were people from the cities, "romantic gangsters" that were looking for a motive to die. Moriel 04:56, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

In Argentine literature and regional Spanish, a matrero is a gaucho that kills and steals. This is a country character, never lives in the cities. In fact, although he is a criollo, he lives almost like indigenous people, only that he lives alone. You can read a nice description -in Spanish- in Sarmiento's Facundo (http://www.biblioteca.clarin.com/pbda/ensayo/facundo/facundo_00indice.htm)]. In the 2nd chapter there is a section called "El Gaucho Malo". This is classic of Argentine literature, which influenced Borges a lot.

On the other hand, compadritos are always characters of Buenos Aires' outskirts, the arrabal. This is a frontier region, neither city, neither country. Therefore, compadritos have both urban and rural characteristics. JorgeLuis 03:12, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Current question: did Borges have Jewish ancestry?

Resolved

This one is no longer "current." Viajero removed "Jewish" from the article (which he had introduced), so I gather we are now in agreement that Borges did not have Jewish ancestry. Jmabel 23:28, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The question

Viajero, good work on the "Life". I'll add a little more, but this is really shaping up as an article. One thing, though, I think is actively wrong. Where do you get the claim that Borges was, in any degree, Jewish? He was accused in 1934 of being a Jew by the quasi-fascist (or maybe outright fascist) magazine Crisol. He chose to respond with his short essay "Yo, judío," which plays with the possibility of his being partly Jewish, but clearly comes down to saying that he isn't.

To make this easiest for anyone else monitoring this page to follow, I'll quote from an English translation here, Karen Stolley's translation in Borges, a Reader (1981):

"Who has not played at searching for his ancestors...? ...it has not displeased me to imagine myself often as a Jew... The journal Crisol, in its January 30 issue, chose to salute this retrospective hope..."

After a long paragraph discussing his ancestry, and failing to find a Jew, he concludes,

"I am grateful to Crisol for having impelled me to pursue these invstigations, but I have less and less hope of ever ascending to the Altar of the Temple, to the Bronze Sea, to Heine... to Ecclesiastes, and Charlie Chaplin."

There's more to the essay, which is both concise and playful - in short, Borgesian - but the point is that he would have welcomed Jewish ancestry, but didn't believe he had any. Are you going by something more solid that contradicts this, or just rumor? Jmabel 20:33, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Current questions relating to list of works

I'm very suspicious of some of the publication dates in the section "Collections in English." They seem to be a hodgepodge of dates of original Spanish-language publication, dates of translation, and god knows what else. I've started on a solid annotated list of Spanish-language book-length publication, and I'm planning to indicate English-language translations where they exist; I figure on adding accurate information about dates of translation as I gather it. If anyone knows a good source for an English-language Borges bibliography, please let me know (or start inserting the information yourself: if you do that, I'd appreciate a note here). I'll continue within days on the project of adding to the list I've started. I'd appreciate if I'm allowed to follow through that task, although if anyone can give further brief annotation (ISBN numbers, English-language translation info) to what's already there, please go ahead. Jmabel 07:03, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

For list of works: the list of works (related to the Premio Cervantes) at http://usuarios.lycos.es/precervantes/bibliografia/borges.html definitely has some errors. For example, there is a novel by his father on the list, some misspelled titles, dates (supposedly of works) that actually apply only to like an artist's illustrated limited edition of 30 copies of a poem already published elsewhere, etc. (& I do mean etc.). Clearly the list was not assembled by someone who know Borges's work well. However, there are a few intriguing entries that I'm wondering if relates to acutal books I've just never encountered:

• Macedonio Fernández (1961)
  • Fernandez was something of a mentor to Borges, and I know Borges wrote a short eulogy at the time of his death, but I'm unaware of a book by Borges on Fernández. Does anyone know anything solid?
• Borges: sus mejores páginas (1970)
  • Is there such a book? If so, is it anything more than some minor anthology?
• Borges para niños (1988)
  • The only other references to this on the web seem to derive from this list. Is there such a book?

Jmabel 23 Nov 2003

Where do we want to take this article?

Most of the discussion which follows is probably still relevant looking forward; other parts refer to work that has already been done. Jmabel 07:09, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Borges' life story fills a longish autobiographical essay available in the Dutton edition of The Aleph. His critique of the craft of biography is specified in his essay "On William Beckford's Vathek" (essays cited here are in Selected Non Fictions and/or Other Inquisitions)

Before the big fix, this page had a shallow treatment of race, nationality, and postmodernism, now deleted or moved. If anyone wants to revisit those subjects, notably "Two Books" traces a common thread of racism running through Nazi, Allied, and Communist movements; See also "The Argentine Writer and Tradition" , "Our Poor Individuality", "I a Jew", remarks on Carlyle, his WWII-themed fiction...the sheer number of different cultures he admired and studied. However, I don't claim JLB is pristine on issues of race and nationality.

If someone who really knows the postmodern canon cares to, one could give us an account of Borges' relationship, if any, with 20th century European criticism, Again, the earlier entry omitted to account for JLB's remarks about biography in his essay on "Vathek", "On the Nothingness of Personality", "Narrative Art and Magic", lectures on Buddhism, remarks about translation, his translations into Spanish...these would seem to refute any easy answers about his relationship with all things postmodern and also might help in understanding his actual influence on later writers.

(I wrote comments similar to the above a few months ago and I've edited them to reflect the state of the page & discussion as of now. Thanks esp. to JMabel and Viajero for the improvements, and for even keeping one or two sentences I had written. -munge, 24 Dec 2003)

I would agree and go further to say that this whole page seems like it's a) badly POV, and b) a load of bad literary interpretation that doesn't belong on an encyclopedia page. It reminds me of cut & paste paragraphs from someone's thesis: what we want is a solid and clear introduction to the man and his writing. I'm not sure I have the energy to fix it, but if no one else does I'll take a go... Brassratgirl 18:55, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Jmabel 02:16, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC) The article is really rather a mess, isn't it? Rather than leap in & make big edits, I'd like to get a bit of a discussion going first:

1. There ought to be a section which is just a factual chronology of his life.
2. The big hunk of questionable literary criticism under the heading "Borges in the Modern and Postmodern Context": To be honest, I haven't tried full digesting it yet. On a quick read, I'm not impressed, but I'm not necessarily inclined to delete anything, just work around it. We can leave it where it is and add new sections as if it weren't there. On the other hand, if anyone feels they grasp it well enough to summarize it, it could do well with a first paragraph more like an abstract, and some sectioning within. And what's with the first person singular?
3. "Borges as Argentine and as World Citizen" is good, but light. Yes, as was anonymously remarked above, there is much to be said on race, probably even more on his career & on Argentine politics. Discussion of race should certainly include reference to his wonderful, 1-page Yo, judío 1934.
4. Why is the list of works entirely focused on English translations? Are we assuming monolingual readers? I'd want to add Spanish-language titles (and original publication dates) for the stories. I'm guessing it would also be useful to add 1-paragraph capsules of some of the more important stories (with spoiler warnings for the likes of "Death and the Compass" and "Garden of Forking Paths").
5. Are there any criteria at all for what stories are listed? I find it odd, for example, to include every single story from the "Universal History of Infamy" but none of the "forgeries", and how could we be leaving out "Garden of Forking Paths": among other things, it's rather widely taught in US high school Spanish classes, so it's many Americans' first introduction to Borges, and a damn good one at that. And what about films based on or about Borges?

But before I start on any of this, I'd appreciate someone else's priorities being expressed, too.

(END) Jmabel 02:16, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

So we stuck the pomo essay on a talk page of its own...

Hi, I haven't contributed to this page, but it is one I've been watching. I agree, this article needs lots of work. My first priority would be the biographical section. Thereafter I would move "Borges in the Modern and Postmodern Context" to this Talk page or even a subpage since it is so huge, ie Talk:Jorge_Luis_Borge/JLB and PoMo. From there, you can fish out what ever bits look salvageable. As for the bibliographic listings, I would say: modify and expand as you see fit, Spanish titles are fine. Book titles (and publication dates) probably don't need to be Wikilinks, unless you plan to write up a separate article on every given title in the near future. As a general final suggestion, if you encounter a piece of text you have your doubts about, the safest strategy would be to move it here with a brief comment so that the author and/or subsequent readers will understand your motivations. In other words, be bold but leave a trail! Buena suerte! -- Viajero 10:29, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've done some searching through the page history, and it looks like the massive pomo essay got in here June 20, 2003 when User:Hephaestos merged in a bunch of content from a separate article entitled J.L. Borges. That article is gone, so as far as I know there is no way to even work out who wrote this stuff (some more experienced wikipedian may know how to do this). I'd really feel more comfortable clobbering this if we had consensus from the author.

That said, I'm all for the Viajero's idea: move it to a talk page of its own & mine it for content.

I'd really like to hear from a few more people before I'd consider that consensus for such a large change. Jmabel 05:29, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've been heavily waling on the article (and User:Viajero has been in there, too). I believe we're close to finished with the "ground-clearing", although there is still plenty of "construction work" ahead. Jmabel 07:38, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi again Joe, I know you are hoping to hear from someone else (!) but in the meantime...

If you go to J. L. Borges you will see that it is now a redirect to this article. Click Page history, and you will see that a user name User:CP James wrote the stuff (with some edits by others). A look at his/her contributions (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=CP_James) indicates he/she last contributed on 7 June, so...

As a general rule in Wikipedia, there is no single author associated with an article and one has to accept that others will edit one's texts; obviously, however, people take a personal interest in what they have written. In this case, I would guess the text was written for other purposes and "donated" here. It is not really "encyclopedic". However, if the author does materialize some day and you've left a trail of your actions, there shouldn't be any problem. In the unlikely case that an author insists such a text be restored, we can always accomodate him/her by creating a 2nd article (ie, "JLB & PoMo") and linking it to the main one. (Even in that case, I would want to see the text heavily edited for clarity!)

By all means wait for more feedback, but you may not get it; there are very few people working on topics like this here. A fair number of people have edited the article, but there may only be one or two "watching" it. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate... -- Viajero 10:45, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

PS, I just noticed that article was already >32kb, so I moved the section out and put a link to it at the top of this page. Is it clear what I have done? -- Viajero

... and began working on this in earnest

Jmabel, a quick tip apropos of Adolfo Bios Casares: it is customary in the Wikipedia only to link the first occurrence of a term. Keep up the good work! -- Viajero 23:02, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC) That's Bioy Casares and I'm aware of the general practice. You're right, might as well stick to it here, I was just thinking of that as a convenient way to highlight his most frequent collaborator. Jmabel 07:43, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

Jmabel: Good work so far! IMO, the article still urgently needs a simple, straightforward summary of biographical details. To give you a gentle nudge in this direction (!), I collected some random bits from the article in a new section at the top called Life, which is still woefully incomplete. If I have time later, I will lend you a hand with this part. Carry on! -- Viajero 13:01, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• Thanks, but I may leave it more to someone else to sort out that part. At least for now, I'm more focused on the work than the life.Jmabel 04:54, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

I removed the following passage from the article because I think the statement about Borges is trivial: someone just seems to be showing of his (OK, I presume the gender) erudition. I can only assume it is lifted from a student paper. Jmabel 07:26, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

During this period — 1916 in fact — the founding work of modern structural linguistics, Ferdinand de Saussure's posthumous Course in General Linguistics, was first published. There is no suggestion that Borges was familiar with this work, although it is manifestly the case that in his story 'Funes, the Memorious', first published in the collection Ficciones in 1944, Borges proposes his own version of language as a system of signs and significations.

Assessing the state of the article late Nov '03

We've come a long way in the last couple of weeks. Obviously, nothing in a Wikipedia article is ever finished, but I would say that several sections of this are at least solid.

• Life - Certainly could have more added to it, but it's basically sound. Probably could use more on his sister Norah, especially because they colloborated on volumes (she illustrated). [I fleshed out the Life considerably; could still use more on Norah - Jmabel 08:20, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)]
  • We should at least consider seriously the suggestion above that "Borges life story might be served if contributors are already familiar with his longish autobiographical essay, and with his ideas about biography as specified in his essay 'On William Beckford's Vathek'." I'm not sure how much relvance Borges's theories on biography should infulence our approach to his biography, but I do think they may merit a section in their own right (as would his views on race and ethnicity).
• Work - A solid introduction to Borges's work. It could do with extended sections on various aspects of his work, but it's at least a solid overview.
• Borges as Argentine - This is a bit cursory, and contains some material that might belong elsewhere (like in an article on Argentine history; also, we should start an article gaucho), but it's a start.
  • I've now done separate articles on gaucho, Martín Fierro, José Hernández (author of Martín Fierro, and Borges on Martín Fierro. -- Jmabel 02:06, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• Borges as world citizen - Little more than a stub.

• Works: Quotations - So far there is only one, but it is sure representative!
• Works: Original Book-length Publications, Book-length interviews in English, Other works of note, Screenplays - These are pretty solid. Could use more ISBNs, and I suspect that many of these books have English language translations that merit mention and indication of English-language publication date. I suspect that there are also more posthumously published works worth mentioning.
• Works: Collections in English - Less well researched. I believe some of the dates here are translation dates while others are of Spanish-language publication. I'd like to get all of the ones that are simply translations of entire Spanish-language books into Original Book-length Publications and retitle the rest "Other English-language collections."
  • Done. -- Jmabel 02:09, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
• Works: Short Stories: This is an almost-random hodgepodge and should be revisited.
• Works: Quasi-Fiction: An arbitrary and ill-defined category. I think the topic of Borges's blending of fictional and non-fictional forms deserves an extended discussion rather than a list of four works.

• External links and references: To my knowledge, these are the two best. Does anyone have anything else they think belongs here?

• I think we also will want to start sections on various aspects of Borges's ideas, as represented in his writing. Some of these may be more a matter of adding material on Borges to other articles and referencing them here. Among the topics could be:
  • Borges's views on epistemology, philosophical idealism, and personal identity
  • Borges's views on infinity
  • Borges's views on translation
  • Borges's views on biography
  • Borges's views on race and ethnicity
  • Genre writing (detective fiction, fantasy, science fiction)
  • Influence of Borges on other writers and thinkers

Jmabel 00:05, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• • Should add a filmography, too. Jmabel 08:20, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Split it?

The article is past the 32K line. Should we split it up? Any good editorial ideas on what to split out? Jmabel 08:20, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Time to archive some of the talk? (apparently not...)

Is it time to archive (to a separate talk page) the parts of this discussion that don't imply current open issues? If no one says otherwise by Dec 1, 2003, then I will do so shortly after that date. Jmabel 07:38, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As rule of thumb, we archive Talk pages when they grow larger than 32Kb (because some browsers can't edit taxt files > 32Kb). While there is no explicit prohibition against doing it sooner, it is generally considered beneficial to leave the Talk pages as is until this point because it is very useful for potential contributors new to the article to be able to catch up with a quick glance on the previous discussions -- current issues or otherwise. BTW: as you may have noticed, the editor window will warn you when the page >= 30Kb. -- Viajero 11:52, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

...but it is reorganized

OK, what if I just reorganize to bring the live issues to the top? Jmabel 20:06, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I am taking the liberty to do just that. Hope no one minds. Jmabel 07:09, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

20 Feb 04, edits

User:Sir Paul has made an extensive recent edit with some of which I disagree, and has announced his intention of further editing the article. Paul, can we please have a discussion here on the talk page instead of an edit war? I'll start listing my issues pretty much immediately (although I have to break for dinner soon, and may not get to finish right now, but can we please do this cooperatively instead of making a contentious mess of this? Thanks in advance. -- Jmabel 23:51, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sure. Sir Paul 00:12, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. Really. You've added some good material, but you've made what seem to me to be really weird cuts. Here's the start of my list; I'm still looking through. It's a little hard, because your changes were large enough to exceed wikipedia's ability to produce a good "diff"; if I've mischaracterized anything you changed, please just say so.

• Why cut "Sometimes referred to by his initials, "JLB" "? Seems to me that this is very similar to what we do at Franklin Delano Roosevelt: if a person is often referred to by his initials (which Borges is) this belongs in the intro.

I have never read or heard anyone refer to Borges in such a way. Maybe it is common among English-speaking circles, but my (limited) knowledge of Borgesian material in that language tells me otherwise. It seemed to me that the JLB was mostly a conjecture; I'd be glad to change my mind (and the relevant text) if is not [- Sir Paul]

This was, among other things, Borges's own routine way of signing things (starting, I believe, at a young age to distinguish himself from his father, but I have no references for that). For example, he almost always ends prologues with his initials and the place and date. See, for example, (I happen to have these in arm's reach as I write) the prologues of El informe de Brodie, El libro de Seres Imaginarios, and Historia de la eternidad. A Google search on "JLB" and "Borges" together gives 859 hits. Actually, my point is better proved by a search on "JLB" and "Argentina". They are about 50% references to him. If this isn't enough, I can follow up with more research: this is the 8-minute version. -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware that he signed his books in such a fashion, but to me that's simply the result of his following a convention: it's very common for people to replace their names with their initials in contexts where the actual name is supposed to be known by everyone. That sometimes happens in newspapers, and often in literary supplements (when the reviewer reviews more than one book) and in book prefaces. Recall, also, that in his works written with Bioy Casares, María Kodama et al all signed with their initials. I think it is clear that it would be wrong to say of all of them that they were sometimes "referred to by [substitute name for initials]" Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

I guess this one is no big deal either way, but given what I've said above about the google results (which you can verify easily for yourself) do you really think this doesn't belong in the article? -- Jmabel 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A Google search for "Jorge Luis Borges (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=%22jorge+luis+borges%22)" gives 175,000; adding Borges (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=%22jorge+luis+borges%22+jlb) gives 558. That's a factor of .0032. Equivalent searches for Adolfo Bioy Casares (.024), Manuel Mujica Láinez (.0026), Gabriel García Márquez (.003) and Adolfo Pérez Esquivel (.002) do not suggest there's something special about JLB. (I used these authors because they were the first three-word writers that came to my mind. Feel free to replicate the search with other (relevantly similar) names. The reason I used Latin American authors is that I suspect that the custom of signing with one's initials is more common in this region.) Sir Paul 04:45, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)

• Why cut that fact that Borges's father (a lawyer and a psychology teacher) was "also a poet and novelist." It seems to me to be highly relevant. I've seen some web sites misattribute work by Borges's father to Borges himself, presumably because they were unaware of this.

If he was, and his writings had some minimum degree of significance, then leave it. Borges always referred to his father as a "freethinker", mentioning his being a lawyer and a psychology teacher, but never, as far as I can recall, his accomplishments as a writer. [- Sir Paul]

The novel (I believe he only wrote one) is El Caudillo. I see that http://www.themodernword.com/borges/borges_biography.html asserts that Borges actually helped his father write it; that may be true, but it's news to me. Here is the title page (http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/collections/rare_book/latin_american/southern_cone/borges/el_caudillo.html) on a rare books site. Not too much about it on the web, and I've never read it, but it's reported to be a pretty decent book. [1] (http://www.empirezine.com/spotlight/borges/borges.htm), for whatever it's worth (not much, really, other than to show that my opinion is shared by some others) says, "His father, himself a lawyer and frustrated novelist, kept pulling Borges towards literature, not that Borges needed much convincing."

As for his poems, I can't find anything offhand, though I'm pretty sure he did write (and publish) several.

How about we settle this by restoring the parenthetical remark as "also author of one novel"? It seems to be a good shorthand for emphasizing that his father was a literary man, and more relevant than just sying so without evidence. -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Perhaps adding that he was a "frustrated" novelist gives proper context.Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

"author of one novel", "frustrated novelist", whatever, I don't care which as long as it's mentioned. -- Jmabel 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• Why remove the characterization of the Palermo neighborhood of Buenos Aires 100 years ago as "prosperous"? It's certainly accurate. Again, are you saying that Borges's background is irrelevant or what? These are very odd edits to make without comment.

I believe it is not accurate. Palermo was basically a suburban part of Buenos Aires, sourrounded by very dangerous areas where you could get in trouble with compadritos (recall "Man on the Pink Corner"). According to Borges, Palermo was of a "disregarded poverty" [2] (http://www.palermonline.com.ar/noticias/nota022_palermo_borges.htm) A website describes early 20th-century Palermo as "marginal". [3] (http://www.cityreference.com/argentina/buenos-aires/borges-buenos-aires.htm). Of course, today Palermo is quite fashionable; but it was not so a decade, let alone a century ago. Note, also, that this is not necessarily indicative of Borges's background, as you seem to imply. [- Sir Paul]

I'll defer to you on this. Never been to B.A., so my sense of the city is a bit weak. -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• Similarly, why have you removed the statement that Borges major focus on writing fiction began during his recovery from his injury in 1939? He himself discussed this more than once, talking about how he this activitiy was involved in his recovery.

I tried to merge two overlapping segments; if something got lost in the process, I apologize. [- Sir Paul]

So I presume we can restore this without my having to track down a specific reference? -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

See below. Isn't my re-arrangement OK? If not, go ahead and fix it.Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

I did some re-arrangement. I had mistakenly placed the paragraph on Historia universal de la infamia with the section describing his accident. The History was actually written several years before. [- Sir Paul]

• The following sentence -- "Borges's interest in fantasy was shared by Bioy Casares, with whom Borges coauthored several collections of tales between 1942 and 1967" -- was probably poorly positioned in the article, but cutting it entirely seems to be removal of a useful statement. -- Jmabel 00:17, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I concur. But where shall we put it? [- Sir Paul]

I can work that out. But I take it, then that you agree the sentence belongs in the article? -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What belons in the article is, to me, the content of that sentence. But it should be appropriately placed in the article, which is difficult. But again, go ahead if you think you can sort this out.Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

• You write "The language spoken at his home was English." I was under the impression that they used English and Spanish both about equally (which was implied, but not stated, by the previous text). Do you have any source for them not using Spanish at home?

I recall an interview (or was it his short autobiographical piece?) where he said something like: "At home, English was spoken." You are right: I actually went to his autobiography and he says he used "Spanish or English indistinctly". [I also checked the section where he described his father, but I found no mention of his being a poet/novelist. I'm not saying that he didn't write any poems or novels; I'm saying that the way Borges remembered him is probably the way history remembers him. Newton wrote copiously about religion, but it would be clearly wrong to summarize his achievements as "writer of books on physics and religion".] [- Sir Paul]

By "his autobiography", may I assume you mean the New Yorker piece republished in the English-language translation of The Aleph? It's really just essay-length, more an autobiographical essay than an autobiography. Odd he didn't mention this fact, especially if [4] (http://www.themodernword.com/borges/borges_biography.html) is right that he helped with the book, but the essay, as I say, is well short of a complete autobiography. (& I gather we are back in agreement about his family not exclusively spekaing English at home.) -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, "autobiography" is misleading. I am not aware how the piece appeared in English; in Spanish it's been released in a separate book, with huge typeface and thick paper so that people can buy it (no pun intended). I forgot to make the appropriate changes; if you haven't done so, I will. Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware that this article was eventually translated into Spanish, but I believe it is the only published work of his (not counting transcribed conversations) originally written in English for an English-speaking audience. -- Jmabel 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• (In added material) "El Sur" is, indeed, semi-autobiographical in that it describes the New Years accident, but to just say that without context seems odd. After all, this is a story that ends with a "French ending" the leaves us to presume the semi-autobiographical character dies in a knife fight. That also seems worth noting, no?

Yes. [- Sir Paul]

OK, no problem mentioning the story in this relation as long as we make sure that this is more a matter of a story with autobiographical elements than an autobigraphical roman a clef (or, I suppose, conte a clef).

• Why on earth change "From 1937 to 1946 Borges worked at the Miguel Cané branch..." to "Since 1937, Borges had workedat [sic] the Miguel Cané branch..."? Yes, you and I presumably know that "when Juan Perón came to power" means 1946, but the average English-language reader won't. -- Jmabel 00:29, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think I introduced that change for stylistic reasons, but I will check it now. [- Sir Paul]

Corrected. I removed a parenthetical line that seemed redundant; please revert if it is not.Sir Paul 01:54, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

• Why drop "In 1967, Borges began a five-year period of collaboration with the American translator Norman Thomas di Giovanni, thanks to which became better known in the English-speaking world." This is an article in English, so this is presumably quite relevant to it readers. It is also a good indication that the di Giovanni translations have sort of a semi-official status.

It seems to me irrelevant. Why the name of the person who happened to be the translator of Borges's work should be of special interest to English audiences? [- Sir Paul]

Well, English translations of Borges prior to that date were a hodgepodge. Frankly, some of them are pretty mediocre. Because Borges was an effectively native English speaker, and becuase he actively worked with di Giovanni, the di Giovanni translations actually have something of the character of collaborative works, with Borges (an avid translator himself) at least reviewing and approving and reportedly doing more than that. This is discussed at great length in Borges on Writing (a book conversations between Borges, di Giovanni, and others). -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Fine. I will restore the section. Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

• I get the feeling from a couple of edits you made that you might just be unaware that Borges loss of vision was not a unidirectional degeneration. He had several operations that partially restored his sight, and while the trend was downward, it was not uniformly so. The way you've edited this, a reader would think that he was totally blind from the early fifties on.

It is true that Borges's loss of vision was not sudden; but it is also true that on many occasions he made clear that for all practical purposes, by 1955 he was blind. Like other previous objections, this one seems to pose a legitimate concern, but one which shouldn't be addressed to me in particular. Deleting those sentences is better than leaving them; that the article still needs improvement is of course true, but not my particular responsibility. [- Sir Paul]

The reason I'm taking it up with you is that you did several (I believe three) separate deletions or alterations of text that changed the tone of the article in this respect. If you like, I can go look again and track them down from the diffs. No question: from 1955 on, he was too blind to read, but see, for example, the first paragraph of the essay (or lecture) "La cegura" in Siete Noches: "Empezaré refiriéndome a mi modesta cegura personal... total de un ojo, parcial del otro. Todavía puedo decifrar.. el verde y el azul. Hay un color que no me ha sido infiel, el color amarillo." That essay dates from 1977. He goes on to explain (in effect) that he usually fixes on 1955 as the date he associates most with his gradually encroaching blindness partly because it was the year he became head of the National Library (the third blind man to be such, he points out). He also goes on in that essay to discuss his taking up learning Anglo-Saxon at that time, and at least implies that he could still read large words on a blackboard. -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

We agree on this. He never actually became totally blind. The problem is that the scattered senteces I deleted were not clear about the issue, and besides overlapped each other. I will do my best to restore what can be salvaged; but if after this you still think I trimmed some relevant lines, please do make all further changes you judge necessary. Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

Update: The lines I erased are two:

1.With encroaching blindness, Borges became unable to read and write.

The sentence is placed just one paragraph after the lines of the "Poema de los dones", and it is clearly redundant.

2.Borges, who had long suffered from eye problems, become totally blind in his final decades.

This is actually false. He never became totally blind. His remarks about being able to see some colors apply to the last years of his life as well.

So I really see no reason to include them. Sir Paul 17:44, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

OK, I suppose this is no big deal. -- Jmabel 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• You dropped, "Borges's essay "Veinticinco Agosto 1983" announced his intention to commit suicide on August 25, 1983; in the last years of his life, he claimed that it was only through cowardice that he had failed to do so." How can you consider this biographically irrelevant?

It was a somewhat gross assertion: Borges didn't "announce his intention to commit suicide"; he wrote a ficional piece where the narrator did so. That the narrator may have some similarities with Borges does not warrant such a misleading wording. Sir Paul 01:41, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

I know I've read him saying in a published interview that he really had intended to kill himself on that date and that it was only through cowardice that he had failed to do so. But obviously, my recollection is not adequate sourcing on a disputed matter. I'll try to track this one down. -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Your recollection may be accurate --or you may be remembering the comments about his piece "Remorse", where he says that he "wasn't brave [enough]". Either case, it is still misleading to say that he "announced his intention..." in that story, as if he somehow made a commitment to kill himself before some kind of public audience. (Note that I have nothing against suicide, and I wouldn't want to hide the fact that Borges wanted to kill himself if it was properly documented. My objection is based on purely factual grounds.)Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

As I said, I'll try to find my documentation on exactly what he said. -- Jmabel 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK, that's it for the list. I see I'm contesting the majority of your edits. Sorry about that, I'm not trying to be contentious, honest, but it seems I really disagree with what you are doing with the article, especially what seems to me to be removal of biographical information. These are the kind of changes that are usually discussed beforehand in a talk page, no? At least, that's always been my practice. -- Jmabel 00:47, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

So, Sir Paul, can we please try to discuss deletions on the talk page, preferably with you giving an argument for the deletion you want to make instead of my having to take 8-15 minutes apiece to defend myself with explicit sourcing? I know my way around Borges's material pretty well, but not well enough to source these things without finding and leafing through a book each time, when I'd really rather be writing new material than defending what I've already written line by line. -- Jmabel 06:09, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK. The article had some important mistakes and misspellings, and that led me to adopt a somewhat cavalier attitude towards other parts which might have had some value. Sorry for the trouble.Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

And now I see that you've removed the phrase that indicates that after his "promotion" from the library job to that of poultry and rabbit inspector he immediately resigned. Someone could easily be left with the misimpression that for some period he worked this absurdly inappropriate job. -- Jmabel 06:15, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If it says "he was effectively fired" I think it's clear that he dind't actually work at that job --or maybe it isn't? Clarifying the issue seemed to me to be a mild insult to the readers' intelligence, but I may be wrong.Sir Paul 17:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

Well, he'd have been just as effectively fired from the library job if he'd been the sort of man who would have worked the job inspecting rabbits and poultry. I mean, there are several communist-era Eastern European writers who put up with such job assignments. -- Jmabel 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that you included the lines we agreed to restore. Our discussion is now over. Nice talking to you. Sir Paul 14:41, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

While we're on all of this, as noted in the previous section of this talk page, there is a lot of work to be done in this article other than quibbling over small edits. To reiterate for anyone who'd like to move the article forward (most of this can be found in more detail above):

• If someone can sort out exactly what would have been the connotations of "compadrito" and "matrero" in turn-of-the-century B.A., as against how Borges used them (see discussion above), that would be useful.
• Can anyone work out if these books (mentioned in the obviously poorly researched list on http://usuarios.lycos.es/precervantes/bibliografia/borges.html) really exist (see notes above)? If so, they merit mention in the article:
  • Macedonio Fernández (1961)
    • apparently, an anthology he edited [5] (http://www.miborges.com.ar/)
  • Borges: sus mejores páginas (1970)
  • Borges para niños (1988)
• Life - probably could use more on his sister Norah, especially because they colloborated on volumes (she illustrated).
• Work - could do with extended sections on various aspects of his work, but it's at least a solid overview.
• Borges as world citizen - Little more than a stub.
• Works: Quotations - So far there is only one, but it is sure representative!
• Works: Could use more ISBNs, and I suspect that many of these books have English language translations that merit mention and indication of English-language publication date. I suspect that there are also more posthumously published works worth mentioning.
• Works: Short Stories: This is an almost-random hodgepodge and should be revisited.
• Works: Quasi-Fiction: An arbitrary and ill-defined category. I think the topic of Borges's blending of fictional and non-fictional forms deserves an extended discussion rather than a list of four works.
• We could use sections on:
  • Borges's views on epistemology, philosophical idealism, and personal identity
  • Borges's views on infinity
  • Borges's views on translation
  • Borges's views on biography
  • Borges's views on race and ethnicity
  • Genre writing (detective fiction, fantasy, science fiction)
  • Influence of Borges on other writers and thinkers
  • Should add a filmography, too.

-- Jmabel 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Update on Borges's father: perusing a bookstore here in Buenos Aires I came across a title that I had never seen before. It was called Los dos Borges (The Two Borges) and written by a Volodia Teitelboim. Opening the book at random, I noticed a line in which Borges was quoted saying that his father

trató de ser escritor y fracasó en el empeño. Compuso algunos sonetos muy buenos.

tried to become a writer and failed in the attempt. He composed some very good sonnets.

So he was a writer in a sense, but not in another ("failed in the attempt"). We can include the quote in the article, if you agree. Sir Paul 01:54, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)

Sure. -- Jmabel 13:46, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)