Talk:History of the United States (1980-1988)/Allende matter

14 Feb 2004

Why are you ranting on and on about Allende? Don't you think that I've heard all this rhetoric before? The reference to Allende is linked to the article on Salvador Allende. If readers lack background information on the Chilean president, they can utilize the hyperlink. 172 02:52, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If you have heard all of this rhetoric before, I would hope that you would be more pluralistic and accomodating of other viewpoints. As I mentioned before, the text stated basically that Allende was overthrown because he was a leftist. I wanted to include a one-word summary of why Allende's ideology was as so radical that he was the victim of a bloody coup. I have reverted the use of the term "Marxist" and if you should find it necessary to change it, please give a better explanation than "I've heard all this rhetoric before" --Hcheney 21:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Your statements totally disregard the complexities of South American history. Latin American specialists argue that democratization was especially problematic at more advanced stages of import-substituting development, which made democratic politics an almost-impossible game to play, giving the opening for authoritarian rule under specific circumstances. (If you aren't familiar with what I mean "advanced stages of import-substituting development," look it up online, and you will find a plethora of articles from academic journals.)Chile's coup was part of a wave of authoritarian rule in South America in the 1960s and 1970s. In the Southern Cone region, which traditionally had the best record of democratization in Latin America, you saw military takeovers reverse in Brazil (1964), Argentina (1966), Chile (1973), Uruguay (1973), and Argentina again in 1976 (civilian rule was restored in 1973). 172 06:22, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Moreover, just to give you an idea how ambiguous the descriptor "Marxist" can be, it would technically be accurate - depending on how the term's qualified - to label Brazil's center-right president Fernando Henrique Cardoso (1994-2002) a "Marxist," given his methodology as a sociologist. Yet, it would be inaccurate to tag Hugo Chavez with this label, as he is not a member of a political party that proclaims its adherence to Marxist-Leninist ideology. Here's a post-Soviet example. In 2001 Vladimir Voronin of Molodva, who has never renounced Marxism-Leninism, was the first Communist Party chief to win a presidential election in a former Soviet republic. Regardless, there are increasing signs of a stronger US-Moldova alliance. For example, here is a joint statement by Bush and Voronin on US-Moldovan relations from the White House. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/12/20021217-1.html In contrast, Aleksandr Lukashenko of Belarus, who is not a member of the country's Communist Party, cannot be accurately called a "Marxist." And check out John Bolton's "Beyond the Axis of Evil," arguing that Belarus is a member of the expanded "Axis of Evil" at this US State Department website: http://www.state.gov/t/us/rm/9962.htm . Finally, you have the late US philosopher Sidney Hook, an avowed Marxist, hardcore anti-Communist, and staunch supporter of Reagan's foreign policy.

You may think there's some sort of "agenda" behind my revisions of your edits. But my concerns lie in how elastic and relative such terms are.

My larger concern, however, is the very simplistic conception of South American history that you want to inflict on this article. It almost seems as if you're under the impression that Allende was bent on setting up a Cuban-style Communist state from day one. However, Allende entered office pursuing an essentially populist strategy in order to expand his base of support. His initial economic strategy owed more to the Southern Cone's homegrown populists in the era framed by the Great Depression and military rule in the '60s and the '70s. Allende's initial strategy was merely freeing prices and raising wages.

Later, the nationalization of the copper industry was more of an outgrowth of the "Chileanization" policy of Eduardo Frei - the preceding Christian Democratic president. Note that the congressional vote on this issue, which was a campaign promise, was unanimous. Yes, you did have hardliners in the Nixon administration arguing that this was "proof" that Allende declared war on private property in the hemisphere. But Allende wasn't really vulnerable until Chile was in the grip of runaway inflation by early 1973, falling world copper prices, and an alarming balance-of-payments deficits in 1971 and 1972. By mid-'72 the political climate was out of control and extremely polarized, with massive pro- and anti- Allende street demonstrations becoming routine. Joao Goluart in Brazil fell amid the same circumstances. Yet in and of themselves, we'd hardly consider his actions that triggered the military takeover so "radical" (e.g., giving the vote to illiterates and enlisted men). BTW, the US had a role in Brazil '64 as well (but not a deciding role, by any means); US Ambassador Lincoln Gordon and the US military attache, General Veron Walters, wertr in contact with opposition actors, both military and civilian, before the bloodless 4/1 coup.

Regardless, Allende's downfall, along with Goulart's in Brazil, was largely the result of the interplay between social classes and political parties. Allende met fierce opposition from a cohesive upper class united by family ties and objective interest. A unified elite was able to gain the allegiance of the middle and lower-middle class activists, such as storekeepers and truckers. In this context, the US had the opening to support conservative groups that were solid allies on all significant issues of Chilean-US relations. Meanwhile, after the copper, coal, steel, and Bank nationalizations, the US retaliated by holding up loans from the World Bank, the US Export-Import Bank, and the Inter-American Development Bank. Private foreign investment, of course, would come to a halt. As a result, in the last year of his administration, Allende sought out not only lines of credit from the Eastern bloc countries, but also from Western Europe.

It is ridiculous to suggest that Allende, who had served decades as a parliamentary politician, wrangling over negotiations to create and maintain coalitions, was bent on setting up a Cuban-style regime and Soviet satellite state from taking office. So, we are essentially dealing with a faltering government struggling to provide services (and needing credit, markets, equipment, and access to supplies), not someone setting up a Soviet puppet and Communist state.

Although the US did work steadily at "destabilizing" the Allende government by passing dollars to the opposition and subsidizing anti-Allende strikes (most notably the truckers' strike), the US role was not the deciding factor. IMHO, any US president would've faced an uphill battle if he wanted to prevent a military coup. Leftwing ideologues may say that US imperialism was the deciding factor in the '73 coup, while rightwing ideologues may say that Allende's "Marxism," the "Soviet ties," and the "ties to Fidel" were deciding factors, but historians laugh at these assertions. 172 09:01, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)