Talk:History of gays during the Holocaust
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Comparison
I'd be interested to know why this page discusses homosexual death rates in comparison to other groups, but not with Jews in particular? It seems an odd ommision given the nature of the holocaust. --Axon
- Presumably because, unlike the Jews, those other groups were imprisoned to be "reeducated", and might someday be released (according to an earlier paragraph). --Arteitle 07:32 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hitler's sexuality
What a very homophobic assertion
First of all, yes Hitler had relations with Eva Braun, and the claim that 'Hitler was gay' seems like it was made by a very right-wing scum. Let me explain, millions of gays and lesbians were brutally murdered under Hitler's reign. They were the subjects of the regime's cruel experiments. Hitler hated gay people and was very homophobic. Hitler banned gay rights organizations and persecuted gay and lesbian activists. Your claim that 'hitler was gay' is as insane as if you were to claim 'hitler was a devout jew'.
- You seem to completely ignore the possibility that Hitler was in denial. I'm in no position to comment his possible homosexuality as I have really no reliable info on the subject, but venting the frustration and denial of one's own sexuality on acts of violence doesn't seem too far-fetched from a psychological point of view. I personally hold it well-founded that homophobia stems from unresolved issues with one's sexuality. Is it not possible that Hitler's fervent hatred of homosexuals was rooted in his own sexuality? Quirk 17:44, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Was Hitler Gay?
Recently, a new hypothesis, explaining Hitler's behavior, has emerged. This makes the clame that Hitler was himself a homosexual. This claim hinges on a number of things. The claim first arose from an interview with a former squadmate conducted in the 1950's. Here he mentions that Hitler was very detached and showed effeminate behavior. Also, he expressed more intreast in art then women. The squadmate also makes the claim that Hitler was cought having sex with another member of his squad. These claims were initally debunked since the man who made them was a career criminal. However, being gay would explain some of his behavior. It is notable that Hitler seemed uncomfortable around women. Also it is belived that Hitler did not have a sexual relationship with Eva Braun. Hitler's maids said that they checked the beadsheats for evidence of sex, however, they never found any. Hitler's neice, the only other woman he had a relationship with, commited suicide, presumibly due to the fact that he was molesting her.
So what do you guys think?
See talk:Adolf Hitler for what I think. --mav 05:49, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Title
Its unfair to the people this article discusses to be described by the label put upon them by the Nazis. Some or many of the people accused and imprisoned by the Nazis did and would not identify as "homosexual". It is especially unfair to the straight people imprisoned or killed because they were either erroneously suspected by the Nazis or, as the article discusses, fictional same-sex attraction or sexual activity was a politically convenient excuse to remove people from society. However, what should the new title be? Hyacinth 03:30, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I understand your concern, but think it's misplaced. Yes, the Nazis imprisoned men for homosexual behavior when in fact no such behavior had taken place. They also executed Christian "Jews" who were not "self-identified" as Jews. The unfairness was the Nazi's, not Wikipedia's. The Nazis were interested in eliminating Jews and homosexuals from their society, and the title's fine. - Outerlimits 03:41, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- The article opens with a description of Berlin's open gay culture. This is factually true, and I don't object to the terminology, but the Nazis would have and it is not part of the Nazis viewpoint. If this article where to discuss only the Nazis view on "homosexuals in Germany" the title would be accurate but POV, but as it does and should discuss reality outside of that view, I think it should change. See: Wikipedia:Style_guide#Identity: "When writing an article about specific people or specific groups always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations use, self identification." Hyacinth 03:54, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- You're applying 2004 terminology. Gay men in Nazi era Germany would not have objected to "homosexual": it was a term introduced in furtherance of gay rights. - Outerlimits 04:11, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I think that point is irrelevant: this article is contemporary and was not written during the 1930's. --Axon 10:31, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I am moving page to "History of Gays during the Holocaust". Apollomelos 07:18, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Having just read Wikipedia:Style_guide#Identity as Hyacinth suggested, shouldn't this artilcle be titled "History of gay people during the Holocaust"? --Samuel Wantman 09:00, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Extensive Changes
I changed the article quite extensively, to bring the information here into line with the Holocaust Memorial Museum site. I am not a "gay holocaust denier," but the article was previously written in an extravagant style that seemed to exagerrate the claims it made and opened the article to pov concerns; plus, it seemed to deviate from factual claims made on the Museum's site. The stuff about concentration camps as tools for rehabilitation and re-assimilation into Aryan society, or alternately as tools for deterring deviations from state morality, seem wildly implausible, especially considering that Nazis had no intention of "rehabilitating" or "deterring" Jews and other minority groups, even in a theoretical sense, and intended to systematically murder them from the outset. The rewrite acknowledges a "gay holocaust" but I think does so in a more truthful and ultimately more powerful way.
Nazi Germany did not seek to kill all homosexuals. Nevertheless, the Nazi state, through active persecution, attempted to terrorize German homosexuals into sexual and social conformity, leaving thousands dead and shattering the lives of many more.
That is a quote from the USHMM site. Gay men had two choices. A) change sexual orientation (which medical science now states impossible) B) get sent to concentration camps.
Recent Contributions & Gay Holocaust "Myth"
As with many historical issues relating to homosexuality </wiki/Homosexuality> and the Holocaust </wiki/Holocaust>, there is dispute over whether claims of a "gay holocaust" are exagerrated. Some authors, such as Lively and Abrams, dispute the claim that there was a "gay holocaust", and some historians for decades have argued over the claim that large-scale murders of groups besides Jews were carried out during the Holocaust </wiki/Holocaust>, claiming that the Holocaust was a uniquely Jewish experience
The Holocaust was not a myth so I deleted that addition. If you look at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum website you can find pictures of gay men in concentration camps. And in Europe, esp. Germany many monuments have been erected to remember the gay men that perished in concentration camps.
Gay men may have suffered unusually cruel treatment in the concentration camps.
Gay men did suffer unusually cruel treatment. This is from the USHMM site, " many died from starvation, disease, exhaustion, beatings, and murder." Beatings from other prisoners.
Since such "anti-homosexual" laws were widespread throughout the western world until the 1960s and 1970s, the idea that gays were systematically persecuted under the Nazi regime emerged only in the 1970s.
The idea wasn't created in the 1970s. Many gay men only felt safe to speak of the atrocities committed after the repeal of anti-gay laws. See USHMM website.
And in response to the anon that deleted the conversion paragraph. Nazi Germany did try to force gay men to convert to heterosexuality. See below quote from USHMM:
"Nazi Germany did not seek to kill all homosexuals. Nevertheless, the Nazi state, through active persecution, attempted to terrorize German homosexuals into sexual and social conformity, leaving thousands dead and shattering the lives of many more. "
Response
First off, it is undeniable that there is controversy over whether there was a "gay holocaust" in the way the term "holocaust" is commonly understood, and no, the erecting of monuments does not throw this claim into doubt. There is a monument to confederate soldiers in Helena, Montana, but this has not ended the controversy over whether there actually were any confederate soldiers from Montana. The idea that groups besides Jews can be counted as having undergone a "holocaust" is very controversial to this day.
I said the idea "emerged" in the 1970s, not that it was "created" in the 1970s, and there is a difference. Your quote from the USHMM site does not back up your claims that gay men suferred "unusually" harsh treatment in the camps.
- It's true about Helena: [1] (http://www.virginiacity.com/hv02.htm)! Hyacinth 20:47, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Homophobia Within Article & Unfounded Claims
I just conducted an extensive research into the topic using various encyclopedias and Holocaust organizations. The claims that had been placed into the article purporting the Nazis were friendly to gays and had a large gay membership are false. Please cite all sources before making any revisions. January 20th.
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Onanism
As a matter of comparison, I added in the phrase that onanism was also considered harmful to the Reich. In fact, I rememebre reading about an episode from SS/SD internal quarrels that one official was filmed while he was onanized, withe the goal of discrediting, but it missed the target: the verdict was to find him a wife, a Party member in good standing. Does anyone remember this? mikka (t) 16:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)